[] Mami has a minor freakout if I so much as mention you, Kyouko. I told her I'd be here, but sticking my nose in other people's business is completely my idea.
-[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you- I could use some help, actually- but I won't push my luck. And that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and if I can help other people so they don't have to bleed for every grief seed, I will.

Not a complete vote, but I figured the second line of SWB's needed to be a little less snippy.
 
Liking that edit, @Gadjo although not 100% sold on the help bit. Because even if we do get talking about Mami, that help is basically going to be "please come back and make nice", which I doubt we can get away with today
So maybe change that line to:
-[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you, but I won't push my luck. And that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and if I can help other people so they don't have to bleed for every grief seed, I will.
 
@Gadjo:
I like the answer to Kyouko's question. Although I have to agree with SWB on the help bit. The only way she can really help us in regards to Mami is to go meet her and become friends again. I think that would be pushing it for both Mami and Kyouko. I think neither of them are ready for it yet.
We could maybe plant the idea, but we shouldn't push it. We gave Mami a lot to thin about and deal with already in the last few days and it may be better to let that settle a bit first.

Edit: And you took it out already. The new line seems fine to me, but I'm not the best at spotting social traps.

What else do we want to discuss? An update about the Sendai and Oriko situation. Tell her to point new megucas n our direction?
 
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Uhg, I finally caught up after reading through like 750 pages.

Well worth it though.

On the vote, I mostly agree with all of this:
Key things here:

1) Don't imply (at all) that we're befriending Kyouko so that we can get her help with Walpurgisnacht. That'll just reinforce her pessimistic world views (ones that she might be starting to challenge), and it's not even true anyway.

(Between Homura, Sabrina, Kirika, and Mami, we could probably gank the fuck out of WPN before it even has a chance to fight back--which would make sense, as it'd be exploiting several of WPN's relative weaknesses while avoiding its massive strengths. If Homura had to deal with a horrible match-up all those loops, WPN can deal with a horrible match-up this one.)

2) Update her on the general situation--Oriko and Kirika, the war we nipped in the bud, and the general status of the factions involved.

3) Genuinely befriend her. She's not automatically hyper-suspicious of everything Sabrina does or says this time, so we can actually interact with her without walking in a social minefield.
A) We did come here entirely on our own volition, both this time and before. While Mami certainly misses her friend, we didn't come here for Mami, we came her for Kyouko and Yuma because we genuinely care about their well-being and our powers let us freely afford to help.
B) We should explicitly praise what she's done and doing for Yuma--it's a lot of responsibility and work to take on for oneself while asking for nothing in return, but it makes all the difference in the world for the other person. Also, Yuma is adorable.

4) We do not want to come across as particularly calculating or manipulative. Saying we have seven exact reasons for seeing her would kind of give that impression, and it would be kind of contrary to the stated reasons we had for visiting her the first time.

Kyoko seems to be warming up to us at least a little bit, and probably feels a great deal of relief that Sabrina can help her take care of Yuma. At heart Kyoko is someone that wants to be an idealist, and now that she's not so on guard around Sabrina we should really be taking advantage of that by showing how much of an idealist Sabrina is.
 
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[] Mami has a minor freakout if I so much as mention you, Kyouko. I told her I'd be here, but sticking my nose in other people's business is completely my idea.
-[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you- I could use some help, actually- but I won't push my luck. And that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and if I can help other people so they don't have to bleed for every grief seed, I will.

Not a complete vote, but I figured the second line of SWB's needed to be a little less snippy.

I'm not sure about the second half of the second line there. I feel like you've reverted to standard Sabrina White Knight text, and while that's not something to be horrified about, I don't think it's the best route to Kyouko's heart. I'd word that second line something more like:

[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you, but I have this feeling y'all'd rather be punched by a witch in the face. And anyway, that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and it's really cheap for me to do cleanses, so why not? Though if you want, I could use some help on some things.
 
I'm not sure about the second half of the second line there. I feel like you've reverted to standard Sabrina White Knight text, and while that's not something to be horrified about, I don't think it's the best route to Kyouko's heart. I'd word that second line something more like:

[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you, but I have this feeling y'all'd rather be punched by a witch in the face. And anyway, that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and it's really cheap for me to do cleanses, so why not? Though if you want, I could use some help on some things.
She does still hold those old ideas though, even if they are blunted and covered in cynicism. I especially think that last sentence sounds like "well I'm here to help, but actually I'm here to get favors."
 
I especially think that last sentence sounds like "well I'm here to help, but actually I'm here to get favors."

That's intentional. My goal here is to give her an avenue for doublethink. Even if it's completely trivial, as long as Kyouko thinks she's exchanging something for something, her internal paranoia meter will be satisfied. Her response to that should rightfully be "...what kind of things? <suspiciousglare.jpg>", whereupon we say something like "can you be my combat senpai? I want to learn more about how to beat things with my hammer".
 
That's intentional. My goal here is to give her an avenue for doublethink. Even if it's completely trivial, as long as Kyouko thinks she's exchanging something for something, her internal paranoia meter will be satisfied. Her response to that should rightfully be "...what kind of things? <suspiciousglare.jpg>", whereupon we say something like "can you be my combat senpai? I want to learn more about how to beat things with my hammer".
I think continuing to tell the truth is more beneficial here. She's still suspicious, but I think we'll eventually get the point across that we aren't really asking for anything in return. I think implying that we want favors is going to go over badly, since it'll mean we've been lying to her up until now.
 
I think continuing to tell the truth is more beneficial here. She's still suspicious, but I think we'll eventually get the point across that we aren't really asking for anything in return. I think implying that we want favors is going to go over badly, since it'll mean we've been lying to her up until now.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. My interpretation so far has been that Kyouko is more suspicious of the lack of favors rather than suspicious of us personally. To rephrase as KyoukoText (because I suspect my wording there was shit):

"I don't trust ya' because nobody ever does somethin' for free. You've got an angle an' Imma be cautious 'round you 'till I figure it out."

rather than

"I don't trust ya' because I'm pretty sure yer gunna gank me or Yuma at some point for something we have."
 
Doublethink is something we want to discourage long-term. If we are honest today and we end the interaction with her suspicious, and then we are honest next time, and the time after that... her cynicism will naturally fade regarding us.
 
Doublethink is something we want to discourage long-term. If we are honest today and we end the interaction with her suspicious, and then we are honest next time, and the time after that... her cynicism will naturally fade regarding us.

I can't tell if you're optimistic and I'm pessimistic, or if our life experiences are just wildly different. Because I've never actually seen that happen in real life.
 
I can't tell if you're optimistic and I'm pessimistic, or if our life experiences are just wildly different. Because I've never actually seen that happen in real life.
It's consistency. If we flip flop now, she'll think that anything we say could just be more cover for some lie.

If we continue to be consistent in that motivation, she'll eventually accept that's why we're here. Answering "Because I want favors" is just going to make any later assertions that we just want to help people seem like lies to be exposed. I would like to establish a reputation with Kyoko of being honest.
 
It's consistency. If we flip flop now, she'll think that anything we say could just be more cover for some lie.

If we continue to be consistent in that motivation, she'll eventually accept that's why we're here. Answering "Because I want favors" is just going to make any later assertions that we just want to help people seem like lies to be exposed. I would like to establish a reputation with Kyoko of being honest.

That's fair. How do we deal with when we actually need to ask Kyouko for favors? Are we planning on just not asking for help from Kyouko until we've established a positive relationship?
 
That's fair. How do we deal with when we actually need to ask Kyouko for favors? Are we planning on just not asking for help from Kyouko until we've established a positive relationship?
That, or more likely, ask politely, and make it clear that whether or not she accepts we'll still come back to cleanse. Maybe after we explain Sendai, we say that we could use some CQC training, if she's got the time. It'll be a tad tricky, since we'll have to make it crystal clear that we don't hold cleanses contingent upon favors, but I think it can be done.
 
That's fair. How do we deal with when we actually need to ask Kyouko for favors? Are we planning on just not asking for help from Kyouko until we've established a positive relationship?
Pretty much, yeah. We might like to have her help in the future, but I don't think there's going to be a situation where we need her help, at least in the next week or so, which is plenty of time to establish a working relationship with her. As far as I can tell we are already halfway there.

Also, I'm getting the feeling that she might secretly want Mami to have put us up to this. Call it a hunch, but we know from TDS that Kyouko really wants to have a more positive relationship with Mami, she just doesn't see herself as worthy of calling herself her friend because of trauma related reasons.
 
She does still hold those old ideas though, even if they are blunted and covered in cynicism. I especially think that last sentence sounds like "well I'm here to help, but actually I'm here to get favors."
We're here because Kyouko and Yuma have things that we want (knowledge, combat skill, healing) and we have things that they want (knowledge, grief management, security). Establishing a trade agreement and an information network where both sides benefit is an excellent first step toward friendship (which is basically the same thing except with more social interaction and less bookkeeping).

[] Mami has a minor freakout if I so much as mention you, Kyouko. I told her I'd be here, but sticking my nose in other people's business is completely my idea.
-[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you- I could use some help, actually- but I won't push my luck. And that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and if I can help other people so they don't have to bleed for every grief seed, I will.
[] Inform them about Oriko.
[] Inform them about the Sendai conflict.
-[] Ask if Kyouko knows anything about Kato Setsuko (unlikely, but we might as well ask).
-[] Let them know that the offer to trade 3 full grief seeds for 2 empty grief seeds is available to them as well.
[] Inform Kyouko that the soul gem contains the soul and that Mami was horrified when she found out and felt betrayed by Kyuubey. Kyoukou might think that it would distress Yuna, so we'll let her handle that revelation.
[] Say that we're building an information network: letting them know about any potential situations that we hear about and asking if they hear anything in return. Tell them about the following:
-[] The drifting witch in West Mitakihara, 2 days from now.
-[] Soujo Ayase and Luca, the twin souled gem collector, 2 weeks from now.
-[] Walpurgisnacht, 3 weeks from now.
--[] Telepathically to Kyouko, emphasize that this is an extremely dangerous witch who is capable of killing most meguca or groups of meguca singlehandedly.
--[] Say that we will be asking for support in the fight against it, but make it clear that we aren't going to refuse cleansing or grief seed trade regardless of whether they come to help or not.
--[] Ask for melee combat training from Kyouko, regardless (this could be in the context of a Witch hunt).
-[] The unknown threat with black feathers, after Walpurgisnacht.
-[] Ask if they've heard of any threats.
[] Say that we would like to do some experimentation on healing at some point (measuring the effects of magic-enhancing gauntlets, for instance).
-[] To Kyouko: Creating backup bodies that could be used with a soul gem in case of the destruction of the original body could also come in very useful.

Edit: put the parts that might potentially alarm Kyouko if we told them to Yuna in italics.
Edit2: Clarified the Walpurgisnacht question so that it's clear that we aren't demanding an immediate answer.
 
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I can't tell if you're optimistic and I'm pessimistic, or if our life experiences are just wildly different. Because I've never actually seen that happen in real life.

Yes to both, but actually, there's a much better reason: canon.

Or rather, in side materials, it's pretty clear that you can get through to Kyouko. TDS Madoka befriends her just by being persistent and honest. Homura and Sayaka both manage in various PSP game routes. I think there might be more examples, but those are just off hand. We don't need to play into her cynicism.
 
We're here because Kyouko and Yuma have things that we want (knowledge, combat skill, healing) and we have things that they want (knowledge, grief management, security). Establishing a trade agreement and an information network where both sides benefit is an excellent first step toward friendship (which is basically the same thing except with more social interaction and less bookkeeping).

[] Mami has a minor freakout if I so much as mention you, Kyouko. I told her I'd be here, but sticking my nose in other people's business is completely my idea.
-[] Of course, I'd love to discuss Mami with you- I could use some help, actually- but I won't push my luck. And that's not why I'm here. I have, as you said, a rather strange power, and if I can help other people so they don't have to bleed for every grief seed, I will.
[] Inform them about Oriko.
[] Inform them about the Sendai conflict.
-[] Ask if Kyouko knows anything about Kato Setsuko (unlikely, but we might as well ask).
-[] Let them know that the offer to trade 3 full grief seeds for 2 empty grief seeds is available to them as well.
[] Inform them that the soul gem contains the soul and that Mami was horrified when she found out and felt betrayed by Kyuubey.
[] Say that we're building an information network: letting them know about any potential situations that we hear about and asking if they hear anything in return. Tell them about the following:
-[] The drifting witch in West Mitakihara, 2 days from now.
-[] Soujo Ayase and Luca, the twin souled gem collector, 2 weeks from now.
-[] Walpurgisnacht, 3 weeks from now.
--[] Ask for support in the fight against it, but make it clear that we aren't going to refuse cleansing or grief seed trade regardless of their answer.
--[] Ask for melee combat training from Kyouko, regardless (this could be in the context of a Witch hunt).
-[] The unknown threat with black feathers, after Walpurgisnacht.
-[] Ask if they've heard of any threats.
[] Say that we would like to do some experimentation on healing at some point (measuring the effects of magic-enhancing gauntlets and trying to create backup bodies, for instance).
2 problems: 1: We don't need to do a seed exchange with Kyoko, since she isn't going to hire mercenaries to come and kill us, so her getting a stockpile isn't a problem. 2: We should inform Kyoko alone or over telepathy of the lichbomb. Lichbombing Yuma is not going to get us on her good side.
 
@SynchronizedWritersBlock
You've hit the nail on the head, yeah.

If we say no, we should probably say why not to make sure Kyouko doesn't feel hurt.

[]No, she didn't.
[]Telepathy. Mami's...not doing well, and it's related to some things we kind of need to talk about later, just between us. Oh, and that war I mentioned's over now.
[]Food?
 
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