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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kinematics said:
Ehh.. Different types of humanity. It's a vague and amorphous term. Homura's still human, but would you consider her obsessive self-neglect human? Our having to constantly nudge her to take care of herself, and try to actually be happy with Madoka — those are things that keep her human.
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Still not the right message to be sending. Let me put it this way, apart from the Lichbomb, anything that so much suggests that Megucas are somehow less human is off the table during this dicussion. Mami has enough issues about that as it is, lets not aggravate them.

And, seriously speaking, I personally feel that dropping the lichbomb will be enough, for now. We don't need to completely destroy any chances of them contracting in the future, just show that being a meguca isn't as consequence free as Kyubey might imply. Everything else is kinda over thinking it.
 
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And Kyubeybomb. The whole point of this is largely to get across that Kyubey isn't to be trusted and that he's trying to trick you whenever he shows up- the lichbomb's an example of that more than anything.
 
Krecart said:
Isn't it sort of important to do exactly that though? Madoka can literally end the world if she contracts and Sayaka is almost certain to die if she contracts. Do you mean not having to do it all at once?
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The Madoka thing could be a problem, but we could probably keep a contracted Sayaka alive if we were proactive rather than reactive when it comes to the things that finally break her. We'd still like to avoid it, but it's not assured death for the blueberry.
 
That said, there's no reason we can't go out of our way to avoid a Sayaka contract and make sure she knows what she'd be signing up for- including the parts where it's effectively a suicide note.

A Sayaka contract would be a definite setback on our part though.
 
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Krecart said:
Isn't it sort of important to do exactly that though? Madoka can literally end the world if she contracts and Sayaka is almost certain to die if she contracts. Do you mean not having to do it all at once?
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That's part of it, yes. The Lichbomb on it's own is traumatizing enough without bringing the entire list of why Meguca life is bad on their heads. There's also the fact that the only way to definitively prevent them from contracting is to kill them, ala Oriko, because no matter what we tell Madoka, if she has a cause strong enough she will contract regardless.

Also, fairly certain that Sayaka isn't going to die if she contracts in this timeline. The main reasons she did in the other timelines is due to her not being able to deal with being a Lich and her being too self conscious to just suck it up and confess already you little-
[Rant about Teenagers being Teenagers]

Anyway, the point being is that as long as she knows what she's getting into and we are around to regulate things, her dying is very unlikely.
 
Ugolino said:
That said, there's no reason we can't go out of our way to avoid a Sayaka contract and make sure she knows what she'd be signing up for- including the parts where it's effectively a suicide note.
A Sayaka contract would be a definite loss on our part though.
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Right. It would just be a smaller "damn, I really thought I could prevent that. Now I'm responsible for keeping her alive in all this." kind of failure as opposed to the full-out "shit, Homura might loop based on that alone, and if we ever screw up and let her spiral the earth will be destroyed" kind of failure we'd get from Madoka contracting.
 
...A Madoka griefbending wish is still not the worst thing that could happen there. It's just too risky for us to try to make happen, but... :(

@Cannongerbil
Given Sayaka's personality, her low potential causing her grief, and status as a domino if she ever does die...it's still not something we want in the slightest if we can avoid it. The blueberry's great, but she does tend to be a major contributing factor to ruined timelines.
 
If Sayaka contracts, it's not going to matter what we tell Madoka. We can reveal that coobie's a shit and it won't matter. The damage has been done and Madoka's circle of friends/family has been irreversibly impacted. She'll be that much closer to contracting.

So yeah, let's do what we can to avoid a Saya contract.
 
Ugolino said:
A Sayaka contract would be a definite setback on our part though.
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Frankly, this is one of those issues where my desire for a good story is conflicting with my desire for the perfect playthrough. Having Sayaka contract under differing circumstances is going to be a huge story arc and be very interesting to see play out, and if she contracts after learning about the lichbomb she is significantly less likely to instantly game over the quest. Not having her contract is safer, but it also cuts off alot of very interesting avenues.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Frankly, this is one of those issues where my desire for a good story is conflicting with my desire for the perfect playthrough. Having Sayaka contract under differing circumstances is going to be a huge story arc and be very interesting to see play out, and if she contracts after learning about the lichbomb she is significantly less likely to instantly game over the quest. Not having her contract is safer, but it also cuts off alot of very interesting avenues.
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Agreed. Unfortunately, this quest has the unique problem of not being able to use ignorance to allow terrible things to happen. Here, we'd have to bear all the guilt for allowing her to contract when we knew we could have prevented it.
 
...Yeah, no, let's leave "It'd make a good story" to Walpurgisnacht. :p

Sayaka's probably better off not contracting here, and so's Madoka.
 
Dirtnap said:
I don't get this reasoning. At all.
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1) What happens in barrier is what you think should happen.
2) The meguca thinks something specific happens.
3) Since witch gets fragments of meguca's mental state, likely things immediately relating to it will be manifested in barrier.

So it is the sort of theory that becomes true if you believe in it.
 
'Lement said:
1) What happens in barrier is what you think should happen.
2) The meguca thinks something specific happens.
3) Since witch gets fragments of meguca's mental state, likely things immediately relating to it will be manifested in barrier.

So it is the sort of theory that becomes true if you believe in it.
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....What?

This isn't Mage the Ascension. Things don't become true just because you think it is.
 
'Lement said:
1) What happens in barrier is what you think should happen.
2) The meguca thinks something specific happens.
3) Since witch gets fragments of meguca's mental state, likely things immediately relating to it will be manifested in barrier.

So it is the sort of theory that becomes true if you believe in it.
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I...have no idea what you're driving at and am pretty sure I'd disagree if I did. :confused:
 
Cannongerbil said:
....

What?
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I am made of grief and control it. I think, therefore I am Walpurgisnatch.

Sayaka did get trainstation and Kyosuke in her barrier, for example. Would this transplant apply to the witch too, should the meguca think it should happen to their witch when they witchout?
Ugolino said:
I...have no idea what you're driving at and am pretty sure I'd disagree if I did. :confused:
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I'm pointing at the fraught nature of predictions with in-universe meta-loops regarding beliefs.

Why you'd want to disagree with me if you understood it, I have no idea.
 
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'Lement said:
1) What happens in barrier is what you think should happen.
2) The meguca thinks something specific happens.
3) Since witch gets fragments of meguca's mental state, likely things immediately relating to it will be manifested in barrier.

So it is the sort of theory that becomes true if you believe in it.
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Actually, the witch is a reflection of that girl's despair and insecurities. It's not controlled at all. A witch is essentially your own self-image twisted by your thoughts during a grief spiral. If you thought you were Walpurgisnacht, you would likely get something closer to "I'm a monster who just destroys everything I meet!" and it would be augmented by the circumstances of your grief spiral.
 
As an aside, interesting thing I noticed about witchouts: It wasn't apparent in other manga I read, but in the PMMM manga, Sayaka stayed talking until her grief seed hatched. This is interesting detail, and rekindles my hope in reviving meguca through seeds.

Gadjo said:
Actually, the witch is a reflection of that girl's despair and insecurities. It's not controlled at all. A witch is essentially your own self-image twisted by your thoughts during a grief spiral. If you thought you were Walpurgisnacht, you would likely get something closer to "I'm a monster who just destroys everything I meet!" and it would be augmented by the circumstances of your grief spiral.
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Hm, good point about the insecurity magnification.

While interesting, I guess it wouldn't self-intensify after all.
Ugolino said:
...We're not made of grief. Our fundamental nature is not the belief that we're Walpurgis...so probably not?
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Any witch would be made of grief and have some control over it, but yeah, this (and DirtNap).
Cannongerbil said:
....What?

This isn't Mage the Ascension. Things don't become true just because you think it is.
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With grief, they do! (If you want)

Grief is such Bullshit.
 
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