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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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So, I just realised something. We never dd find out what exactly was the chain of events that starts with "Us intervening in the Masami incident" and "22 meguca pileup". And then here's a perfect opportunity to ask it from the seer herself and then with all the Talk about Asunaro, that question slipped my mind.

:facepalm:

@Firnagzen, is it too late to add it to the vote at this point in time?
 
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Cannongerbil said:
So, I just realised something. We never dd find out what exactly was the chain of events that starts with "Us intervening in the Masami incident" and "22 meguca pileup".
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... isn't it just that Akiko finds out there's a girl who can cleanse Grief and moves ahead her plans to hit Ishinomaki assuming we'll alleviate the Grief costs? UG plans with IG to hit her while she's separated from the rest of her group and then things escalate.

Seems pretty straight forward. Also, why does that matter now?
 
Krecart said:
Seems pretty straight forward. Also, why does that matter now?
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Because it bothers me not knowing exactly what caused this mess? There doesn't need to be a grand overarching reason behind my every action, you know?

And, no, we don't know for sure what caused it. We raised plenty of theories, but none of them ever got confirmed.
 
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Cannongerbil said:
Because it bothers me not knowing exactly what caused this mess? There doesn't need to be a grand overarching reason behind my every action, you know?

And, no, we don't know for sure what caused it. We raised plenty of theories, but none of them ever got confirmed.
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  • It was confirmed that Ishinomaki and UG had already made a cooperative agreement against Sendai.
  • We know that Akiko got teleported in early by Sakura when we met them and did our little show, and went with Sakura and Rin when they continued to Ishinomaki.
  • It was confirmed that Akiko showed up a day early for the negotiations, and was caught sneaking around town.
  • It was confirmed that Ishinomaki is rather trigger-happy, and willing to attack first and ask questions later. Plus they directly admitted to attacking Akiko.
There doesn't seem to be much uncertainty in how that series of events led to the outbreak of the war. What is it that you think is still ambiguous?

For myself, the only question remaining is Kyuubey's involvement, because SWB's rewrite of my question managed to get it not answered in the recent vote. Even then, he didn't trigger the immediate war, only (maybe) set things up for the war to happen.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Fact of the matter is, barring godly shenanigans, we will have to secure their cooperation somehow. Unless you think we can somehow take on an openly hostile Clarketech species in open comabt and forcibly kick them off the planet, which, spoiler alert, we can't.
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Short of a wish, no.

But we won't inherently need their cooperation beyond "grief disposal". It'd make things easier, definitely, but it isn't absolutely necessary and we simply can't trust them to act in our or even their own best interests if they see what even looks like an alternative that gives a higher short term profit. Before Rebellion, you could argue that enlightened self-interest would win out over short term greed, but their actions in that movie put the nail in that coffin pretty thoroughly.

Homura caused the creation of a better system, and Kyubey decided to conduct a field test to see if her ramblings about Witches were possible. That sums up everything we need to know about them. If Dedolere or everyone dying gives them a large short term profit, they will gleefully take it.

We can't turn our backs on them, we'll never be able to trust them not to screw us over at what even looks like the first chance to profit from it, and we need some kind of contingency for "isolation field funtimes" as soon as we can find a magical girl with a power that can help with that- Oriko's power is useful there once again.

There is exactly ONE time Kyubey was working in the best interests of humanity and could be trusted to do his side of things: when he was being kicked around by Homulucifer at the end of Rebellion. In every other scene, he was the most prolific murderer in human history, completely unrepentant, and actively working to get more Puella Magi killed- even arguably post-series and pre-Rebellion. (Gee, new universe-Sayaka sure came out of her contract satisfied, didn't she? Thanks, Kyubey!)

tl;dr Kyubey is not a mascot and he isn't a potential ally or partner. He's a serial killer.
 
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Ugolino said:
Homura caused the creation of a better system, and Kyubey decided to conduct a field test to see if her ramblings about Witches were possible. That sums up everything we need to know about them.
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Strictly speaking, the system was better for humans, but not better for Incubators. The potential gain from witches was a great deal more than the 'current' system after Madokami, so naturally the Incubators would try to harness it (since they no longer had the memories of it existing before).

If we can create a system that is objectively better, rather than just better in the ethical sense, I think we'd be OK in dealing with them. The problem is that we don't know what bar we'd have to meet to be 'better', or if we're actually capable of achieving it.

Granted, if a third system comes along that's better than both the witch system and the Sabrina system, the Incubators would certainly go for that, but that would be the case regardless of our actions. Our best chance at preventing such a thing would be keeping an open channel with the Incubators, and if they ever stumble on something that looks better, let us have a look at it too to both evaluate it ethically, and see if we can trump it.
 
Kinematics said:
Strictly speaking, the system was better for humans, but not better for Incubators. The potential gain from witches was a great deal more than the 'current' system after Madokami, so naturally the Incubators would try to harness it (since they no longer had the memories of it existing before).

If we can create a system that is objectively better, rather than just better in the ethical sense, I think we'd be OK in dealing with them. The problem is that we don't know what bar we'd have to meet to be 'better', or if we're actually capable of achieving it.

Granted, if a third system comes along that's better than both the witch system and the Sabrina system, the Incubators would certainly go for that, but that would be the case regardless of our actions. Our best chance at preventing such a thing would be keeping an open channel with the Incubators, and if they ever stumble on something that looks better, let us have a look at it too to both evaluate it ethically, and see if we can trump it.
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The thing is, the Incubators have proven that we CAN'T be sure that we've ever done so in such a way that they won't betray us. They've taken stupid risks in the interest of short term profit/finding new systems before, and they wouldn't hesitate to do so again even if we succeed.

Do we need to put up with them for grief disposal? Yes. Do we need to actively COOPERATE with them? That's less certain.
 
Ugolino said:
Short term gain is referring to killing off the earth via Gretchen- but arguably witchouts are larger, more destructive payouts than demons.
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Not necessarily destructive. In PMAS, at least, grief seeds seem like they keep generating grief/energy forever (cleansed out seeds produce grief). If canon seeds do generate grief, and if Ultimate Gretchen's grief seed's bigger than all of Earth's (present and future) grief seeds together, then creating Ultimate Gretchen was more energy efficient in the long term than keeping Earth alive.
 
Yeah... You can rely on Kyubey to take the most largest, most efficient gain every time. While this makes him someone we can manipulate, he cannot be trusted long term. You can trust most people, even the most callous sons of bitches, because deep down they have some measure of a conscience that would keep them from going to evil overlord levels of backstabbing for personal profit. Kyubey, however, is a bonafide psychopath and will betray us the moment we become less profitable than hammer tossing babies into pools of grief or something. I don't consider a system where we work with him indefinitely to be a good end.

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" is something I'd figure any long-term ally of the incubators would eventually find themselves saying. They're fair-weather friends at absolute best.
 
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Kinematics said:
If we can create a system that is objectively better, rather than just better in the ethical sense, I think we'd be OK in dealing with them. The problem is that we don't know what bar we'd have to meet to be 'better', or if we're actually capable of achieving it.
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Really we need to figure out just why ethics apparently don't matter to them. They've got some kind of moral system that creates an imperative not to let the universe collapse or whatever it does if it runs out of entropy. Why is it that once a system has cleared the bar of "effective enough to save the universe" that they're judged by how much excess energy they produce over that rather than on ethical grounds?

Why is a "better" system (i.e. one that produces a greater amount of excess energy over the amount needed to save the universe) better rather than being equal in that regard?

@Firnagzen you are missing an italic close tag. After "Yep! Should make for a nice dinner."
 
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Under the Radar pt. 10
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    • You tip your head at Oriko's Soul Gem, still sitting on the table. A thin patina of Grief has already gathered under the surface in the time since you'd last cleaned it - the result of the usage of her precognition. "May I...?"

    Oriko grants you permission with a quick nod.

    You cleanse her Soul Gem with a quick crook of your finger, adding the relatively minuscule amount of Grief to the blob you still have in your hands. You look down at the blob, 'kneading' it with your powers. A small flash of deeper purple on your finger - the ring, still on your little finger, and still no issues there.

    An idea strikes you, and you glance up at the silver haired girl again. "Hey, Oriko, would you mind if I were to try something else, with your help again?"

    "No, please go ahead," Oriko says.

    You nod. If you can't heal directly with something made of Grief, maybe you could make something to amplify your magic? You focus, moulding the Grief with your will. Amplification. Something to make your magic work better.

    The Grief flows like wax under a flame, runnels sliding around your left hand to form a smooth, golden gauntlet reaching past your wrist, flaring out mid-arm. Sockets sit on the back of the gauntlet, one over every first knuckle. A single blue crystal gleams at the base of your index finger. It also feels... odd, as if crackling fire were sheathed in wire and wrapped around your hand.

    Huh.

    You flex the gauntlet. It looks like it's made of metal, but it bends and warps without complaint, the crystal twinkling as it catches the light. Of course, it also glows Witch at your senses.

    Kirika lifts her head off Oriko's side and gives the gauntlet a curious look. "Shiny," she observes in a solemn tone.

    "So it is," you agree absently, holding it out with your palm towards Oriko. "Oriko, would this work?"

    "Could you pass it to me for a moment, please?" Oriko asks, holding her hand out for it.

    You take the gauntlet off, the faux-metal shifting easily to let your hand out, and you pass it over. Oriko nearly drops it when her hand makes contact with it, her eyebrows shooting up in surprise.

    "Is something wrong?" you ask, alarmed. You sit up, tensing and ready to intervene in a moment if necessary.

    "No," Oriko says, frowning. "Give me a moment, please." Her frown deepens as she concentrates, sea green eyes sliding shut. Her Gem bubbles slowly with corruption. Finally, she opens her eyes again, looking faintly surprised. "This works better, but it isn't... perfect? The effects still don't persist fully." She sets the glove down on the table.

    "That's... interesting," you say slowly, dragging the words out and thinking. You dissolve the glove into Grief, leeting it flow away, returning to the mass outside. You purse your lips, and add, "And, uh. Sorry. I guess I'll have to heal you normally, and uh. That's kinda slow."

    "No matter," Oriko murmurs, shaking her head slightly.

    You stand, moving over. "Um, could you move? I, uh, can't reach your arm," you say, mentally adding, there's a Kirika in the way.

    Oriko nods. "Kirika? Let Sabrina-" Kirika bounces off the sofa, circles around to the opposite side, and then sprawls across the couch to lay her head on Oriko's lap. The seer smiles, her good hand coming up to cup Kirika's cheek. The black haired girl closes her eyes, nuzzling against the hand with a blissful smile.

    You settle into the position vacated by Kirika, already summoning the glow of healing magic to your hands. "Kirika, do you know how to heal? Can you give me a hand here?" you ask. Oriko obligingly lifts her missing arm towards you, presenting you with the stump. You apply your hands, luminescent with magic, to her arm.

    Oriko suddenly twitches, and gives you an irritated glare.

    What?

    ... oh.

    Hand.

    You grin at Oriko.

    She sighs in exasperation.

    "Mmmnm," Kirika says, one eye cracking open to look up at you. "No, not really," she says, pouting.

    "It should be instinctive," you say. "Would you like to try?"

    "Mmmmnm," Kirika says. "Orikoooooo can I try?"

    Oriko nods. "Of course, dear."

    Kirika bounces upright. "Yay!" she cheers. "OK! Teach me, Sabrina-senpai?"

    You can't help but grin at her enthusiasm. "OK, but there isn't much to teach. As far as I can tell, it's really about just trying to do it. Like, you know how you knew how to roofhop without having learned how to?"

    "Yeah, but I read lots of magical girl manga," Kirika chirps.

    "You... of course you did," you say. "But yeah. Just try it, you'll know if you get it right."

    "Sabrina?" Mami's voice, traces of anxiety evident, comes as Kirika gives her hands a determined look, squinting in concentration. You keep your own hands playing slowly over Oriko's stump, concentrating on slowly regrowing the arm.

    "Mami! How are you?" you reply cheerfully.

    "Ah, we're wrapping the gyoza now," Mami tells you, her voice already sounding more cheerful.

    "Oh? That sounds fun," you say.

    "It is!" Mami agrees. "I hope I can make enough for everyone..."

    "Relax, Mami, we can always cook a bit more at home," you say.

    "Ah, you're right," Mami says. "We'll be making okonomiakyi, right?"

    "Ah!" A flicker of orange light at the edges of your vision - Kirika. "I think I got it!"

    "Nice," you approve. "Try it out, then. Oh, uh, take your Soul Gem out? I can cleanse it for you, this is pretty expensive." To Mami, you reply with a quick, "Yep! Should make for a nice dinner."

    "OK!" Kirika says, and her Soul Gem joins Oriko's on the table. Tentatively, the black haired girl leans across Oriko's body and presses her glowing hand to the smooth flesh of the stump.

    "Alright!" Mami says. "I'll see you after school, right?"

    "I'll be there, Mami," you promise. You pay attention to what Kirika's doing, shifting your own efforts at healing in support. An effort of will has Grief wisping from your and Kirika's Soul Gems, deep purple clouds billowing into the air under your careful control.

    "By the way, Oriko," you say, maintaining the healing with most of your focus.

    "Yes?" The seer gives you a regal, questioning look. How she manages to look regal while down an arm and having her girlfriend half sprawled across her lap is beyond you, but she manages it with aplomb and unparalleled poise.

    Well, not unparalleled, you amend. Mami can match her. Easily.

    "Right, so, Asunaro... Do you know of the group called the Pleaides Saints?" You flex your will, shaping the Grief into little models of the girls in question, each in their transformed outfits.

    Kirika peers at the models curiously. "They need pants," she observes sagely.

    "Yes," you agree. "Yes, they do."

    Oriko considers the models. "I presume you wish for me to try and see if there are any major events pertaining to them?"

    "Yeah," you confirm. "And one... uh, two more girls. Soujo Ayase and Luca." You form another model, of the twin-souled girl. Or possible single-bodied duo.

    "Them," Oriko says, an annoyed tone in her voice. "They may come through Mitakihara in... two weeks."

    You raise an eyebrow. "Hmm?" you say, interested. "Can you backtrack her, uh, them to Asunaro?" And isn't she supposed to die there? And how the hell are you supposed to refer to them, anyway?

    Oriko purses her lips, regarding the model carefully, her Soul Gem beginning to bubble with Grief again. Her eyes slide shut, brow furrowing as she spreads her powers.

    Eventually, she shakes her head, eyes opening. They're slightly glazed over. "Too far, too many events." She jerks her head at the models still floating in the air and immediately winces. "The Pleaides Saints are still alive."

    "Even Kazusa?" you ask, the model of the girl drifting forward. Kazusa Michiru, nicknamed Kazumi.

    Oriko grimaces, thinking it over. "Yes, I think."

    Kirika pauses her healing, and reaches up to pat Oriko's face. "Oriko, are you OK?"

    "Yes... yes, thank you, dear." Oriko manages a gentle smile.

    "Oh, OK then," Kirika says.

    You hum thoughtfully. That's some information, then. The Pleaides are still alive. "Well then," you say, dissolving the little figures back into Grief and then forming an arm, bearing aloft a monstrance with a small figure knelt in prayer at its base. In your mind's eye, you can see it in stark black and white, Sayaka hacking at it with a wide, manic grin, and the crimson of blood the only splash of colour in a monochrome Barrier.

    You'd ask about Witches in general, but you already did. "This is a Witch, one that should be appearing within Mitakihara within the next few weeks at most," you say. "Can you tell me anything about it?"

    Oriko studies the model, looking uneasy. "It..." she frowns. "Are you sure you should be revealing this? Here?"

    You bite your lip. "I want to know."

    The frown remains, but she nods slowly, and she closes her eyes, searching with her powers. "It's a drifting Witch," she murmurs. "It arrives... three days hence, in West Mitakihara."

    Your jaw clenches briefly. "Damn," you hiss. You take care to keep your hands steady over the stump, maintaining a steady flow of healing magic.

    "Thanks for the information, Oriko," you say at last, sighing. "And I'm sorry for the pain it causes you."

    "It doesn't... it's not a problem," Oriko says.

    You blow out an annoyed breath, and let the conversation lapse into silence for a while. You and Kirika heal, the progress agonizingly slow. It'll take days to even finish the elbow joint at this pace, you think.

    Mami's voice sounds in your head again. "Sabrina?"

    "Mami!" you say brightly, forcing aside your annoyance. "How's the cooking going?"

    "Ah, it's going great! We're frying the gyoza now. Do you think I should fry them until they're golden, or a little darker?" Mami asks.

    "Golden," you reply. Kirika looks up at you, and her citrine eyes crinkle into a grin. She mouths a few words at you. 'Your oujo?'

    You roll your eyes at Kirika. "I was thinking just that!" Mami agrees. "A little darker would be crisper, but I think golden strikes a nice balance of texture and tenderness."

    "Mmm," you agree. "Sounds great! And now I feel hungry..."

    "O-oh, I'm sorry," Mami replies immediately, sounding contrite. "I'll save a few cooked ones for you to have after school?"

    "Eh? No, no need!" you hastily reassure her. "Mami, I was just teasing. It's OK, really!"

    "Oh," Mami says. "Uh, um. Sorry, Sabrina."

    You resist the urge to sigh. "It's OK, Mami, it really is. I'm not upset."

    "O-oh," Mami says. You can imagine her biting her lip and looking down. "I-I'll see you after school?"

    "Yes, I'll be there, Mami," you say as reassuringly as you can.

    "O-OK," Mami says.

    You do sigh, as the connection breaks. Kirika gives you an odd look, to which you reply with a shaken head. You glance at Oriko. "How are you?"

    Oriko blinks at you for a moment, before volunteering, "The sensation of the healing is decidedly odd."

    "Ah, sorry," you say. "I don't think I do anything there."

    "No matter," Oriko says, inclining her head slightly.

    "Ah, well..." you say. "So, uh. Knock knock."

    Oriko stares at you.

    Kirika, fortunately, is perfectly happy to step up. "Who's th-"

    You cut her off. "A precog."

    "A precog wh-"

    "'A precog who' doesn't make any sense, just let me in," you finish, grinning.

    Kirika blinks at you.

    And promptly starts laughing, the orange luminance of her magic fading from her shaking hands.

    Oriko groans, and mutters, "Kirika, dear, could you let my hand go- thank you." Oriko palms her face with her newly freed hand.

    "Alright, then," you grin. "How many precogs does it ta-"

    "No," Oriko says, lowering her hand from her face. "Sabrina, it's time for you to go, right? My arm can wait a day or two."

    "Awwww Orikooooooo I want to hear the joke," Kirika whines, looking pleadingly at the seer.

    Oriko caves. "Very well. Then I'm sure Sabrina has to go, right?" She nails you with a glare.

    It's not a bad glare. You'd rate it... about zero point three Homuras, so about one Kyouko. You grin, unfazed, as you let the healing magic fade from your hands. "Yeah, I suppose so. Anyway! How many precogs does it take to change a lightbulb?"

    "Ooh, how many?" Kirika says eagerly.

    "None, because they see that nothing changes, and they don't bother!" you announce with a flourish.

    Kirika blinks. "That... wasn't very good," she days, sounding disappointed.

    "Well, they can't all be winners," you say, adopting a philosophical tone. "How abou-"

    "No," Oriko says, rising. "Sabrina, I'm quite sure you need to go now. We'll probably see you tomorrow."

    "Oh fine," you say, rising, while Kirika bounces to her feet, grin returning to her face as she reclaims Oriko's as well as her own Soul Gems. You head towards the back door of the mansion, Oriko and Kirika following you.

    "But Oriko?" you say, stopping at the door and turning to face them. Oriko also stops, and Kirika slips an arm around the seer's waist. "I'll try and persuade the others to lift the house arrest, OK? I can't make any promises, but I'll try."

    The seer looks at you thoughtfully, her sea green eyes meeting yours for a long moment. "I... appreciate it," she says.

    You wave it off. "I'd still want to work with you as equals, if and when that happens, if you still want to help."

    Oriko sighs. "That's... yes, we do."

    "Yeah, we'll help," Kirika agrees, before pausing for a beat and adding, "Help for what?"

    "Saving the world, I guess," you say. Saving one broken little girl. Really, it's the same thing.

    "Yeah, I'm in!" Kirika cheers.

    "Alright. Then... I should go," you say, stepping out into the afternoon sunshine proper. You glance around at the rose bushes -don't you remember that Oriko hated them?- as your wings billow out from your shoulders, Grief spheres sublimating under your will.

    "See you!" Kirika calls, waving enthusiastically.

    "Goodbye," Oriko says.

    With a powerful beat, you loft yourself skywards, soaring up into the clear blue sky. You can see what might be clouds drifting on the horizon as you angle across the city, wingbeats thundering through the air and longcoat flapping out behind you. The glittering steel and glass of Mitakihara rolls by far below your feet, and you quickly arrive at the school, landing amongst the dense greenery with slightly more grace than you'd started with.

    You detransform before walking out, joining the sparse midday crowds as you walk to school, strolling alongside the little ornamental stream beside the path. You're still a little early, maybe ten minutes before school ends.

    [] Write-in

    =====​

    With special thanks to @Mister Bad Guy for helping me figure out a few things!
     
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    • Oh my gooood? What an update.
    Firnagzen said:
    The Grief flows like wax under a flame, runnels sliding around your left hand to form a smooth, golden gauntlet reaching past your wrist, flaring out mid-arm. Sockets sit on the back of the gauntlet, one over every first knuckle. A single blue crystal gleams at the base of your index finger. It also feels... odd, as if crackling fire were sheathed in wire and wrapped around your hand.
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    Faux Infinity Gauntlet?
     
    Hm. Not much to vote for in the immediate future unless we intend to give Mami a heart attack by running off. I take it we vote now for how to spend the evening? Someone probably remembers what we were supposed to do tonight, but it ain't me.

    Also, shiiiiiiit. That means we need to hit up Asunaro and save the morons in about a week (best to get there before they leave town for whatever reason) and that I'll have to brush up on my Kazumi knowledge.
     
    Kinematics said:
    Took me three read-throughs to make sense of that. Hate puns; feel sorry for Oriko for having to be aware of them.
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    Damn it. The hand puns were for Kyousuke.
    Firnagzen said:
    You take the gauntlet off, the faux-metal shifting easily to let your hand out, and you pass it over. Oriko nearly drops it when her hand makes contact with it, her eyebrows shooting up in surprise.
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    Lighter for the user? Like with the hammer? Interesting...
     
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