Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

I'm not entirely convinced that argent is viable long-term.

Maybe if we sign up with the sect permanently, but otherwise...


It's still pretty useful for right now though. I just don't think we should make it our "way".
I mean, heck, if my extrapolation is right, going full Argent would indeed be undesirable for us, and think of the nightmarishness of getting drugs, equipment or sites for ANYTHING unless you monofocus Argent and thus suddenly have talismans, drugs and sites which works exclusively for this giant art suite.

But it builds a very good foundation regardless. So for now, we would probably be perfectly fine mastering all four Yellow/Green Argent Arts, and grabbing Argent Genesis. We have the Talent to make it work.
I'm dubious of expanding past that, but it quite literally works with anything by its nature. Not as a hotswap set, but as a foundational art set which covers all basic needs.
 
If we assume the archer tutor knows anything, Argent is basically it's own specialty/focus.

"The sect arts cover all the elements though, don't they?" Ling Qi replied, feeling a bit defensive. "The Sect Head can't be wrong, right?" The argent arts had been personally developed by him after all.

Zhong Peng inclined his head slightly. "That is a path all its own," he replied.

He describes it as it's own path.

It's fine as we move to green, but I think we'll want to sunset it when moving to cyan.
 
If AC and AS have some sort of successors, I could see them being worth training too. The fact that they work with music, as well as fit our support and dodge tank focus respectively, makes them kinda awesome. Plus they actually fit our elemental interests which is helpful
 
If AC and AS have some sort of successors, I could see them being worth training too. The fact that they work with music, as well as fit our support and dodge tank focus respectively, makes them kinda awesome. Plus they actually fit our elemental interests which is helpful
AC fit our build. AS... does not.

AC enhance the uses of SCS, FVM, AS, FZ and AE. The 'active' part of sound blasts being used for synergy between music and AC has been talked about, or how it works really well with OwS, but that's ultimately not core to our build, just a nice secondary asset. What is core is how thanks to AC dissonance now destroy 3 durability point per hit, or how it and every allies get -3 for every multi-attacker bonus, which we can stack a lot of. Another core part is PC and how it stacks nicely with both dissonance and our support focus (or AE), or how both passives and actives make FZ stronger.

AS only works with AC and SCS for OwS alpha strikes. It's a defensive art that's all about being in melee with opponents, with retaliations against melee and increased DV of melee and so on. It has no synergy at all with the core parts of our build beside 'another defensive art', and, worse, encourage us to be in melee.

Theme wise, there can be some desire to say "well, it punishes people trying to gank the support", but it only works for melee enemy doing so, and it only works if our own melee is superior to theirs. It can, at best, be considered to have middling utility for not being swarmed by weaklings, but HRA has better utility there, and offensive wise Dissonance/Elegy/Breath does, too.

In the short term, the passives are nice, and we can also use the retaliation/extra armor in specific cases, but this is more of a case of 'high quality art that falls into our lap' rather than any synergy at all.
I'm dubious of expanding past that, but it quite literally works with anything by its nature. Not as a hotswap set, but as a foundational art set which covers all basic needs.
I'm getting doubtful it covers all basic needs. Maybe I am wrong, but it feels it's its own style, and won't conver range/sp.attack/constructs/area-dispels/etc.
 
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AS only works with AC and SCS for OwS alpha strikes. It's a defensive art that's all about being in melee with opponents, with retaliations against melee and increased DV of melee and so on. It has no synergy at all with the core parts of our build beside 'another defensive art', and, worse, encourage us to be in melee.
Reminder that AS counterattacks work with our flute too. And that it makes Ling Qi start on the Bai Meizhen Style of "you find it very hard to hurt me, also I break your face for attacking me"

I have no idea what you even MEAN by encouraging to be in melee rather than giving more ways to stay at mid range where our buffs work, our melee attacks work, but their melee attacks not only don't work very well but get punished. That's the definition of an art supporting and covering gaps. The only arts we have which demand specific engagement strategies are:
-FVM
-FSA
 
Reminder that AS counterattacks work with our flute too. And that it makes Ling Qi start on the Bai Meizhen Style of "you find it very hard to hurt me, also I break your face for attacking me"

I have no idea what you even MEAN by encouraging to be in melee rather than giving more ways to stay at mid range where our buffs work, our melee attacks work, but their melee attacks not only don't work very well but get punished. That's the definition of an art supporting and covering gaps. The only arts we have which demand specific engagement strategies are:
-FVM
-FSA
AS counter-attack only work against melee attacks. As such, AS only works if we are in melee when it comes to anything beside basic dice for defence, and any defensive arts give those. It doesn't matter if AS counterattacks work with our flute (and that wasn't confirmed iirc), this is part of its synergy with AC. It covers no gap at all in our strategy nor does it support any of our core strategy.

It just encourage us to be in melee because nothing it gives that's not given by any other defensive art works outside of melee range.

Meizhen's whole strategy is about being a counter-attack tanks and making it impossible for enemies to not attack her. Having some retaliation which is designed to work alongside attacks doesn't actually have anything to do with her strategy.
 
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If AC and AS have some sort of successors, I could see them being worth training too. The fact that they work with music, as well as fit our support and dodge tank focus respectively, makes them kinda awesome. Plus they actually fit our elemental interests which is helpful
Of the three, i'd say AM successor would last us the longest rather than AC/AS that don't really give anything unique.
Not to mention the uselessness of those if we move to full spiritual attack...

I'm getting doubtful it covers all basic needs. Maybe I am wrong, but it feels it's its own style, and won't conver range/sp.attack/constructs/area-dispels/etc.
Lets not forget that the Heaven/Earth might probably covers at least a couple of those weaknesses.
A melee bruser for exemple needs something to nosell ranged attacks or at least see them coming, or a (group of) archer(s) would obviously obliterate him.


edit: and there's 5 skills that might significantly modify the ArgArts we currently have (1 for AM5, 2 for AC3/5 & AS)
 
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We never really looked into perception arts. Or music. Or much of anything, really.

In fact, we've hardy looked into the library at all.

Part of that is just action economy. The other part is the grab bag nature of the library, I think.
 
I don't think we can judge the worth of Argent Arts longterm until we see the set bonus and the successors/others available to the Inner Sect.

Nothing especially worthwhile will be given to the Outers.

Personally, I think Balance will have a pretty amazing bonus or feature that will make the effort worthwhile, or at least worth considering. We really should be trying to learn as much as possible from the Sect, especially if our time there is more limited than we thought. After the tournament, anyway.

We'll have plenty of time to figure out Ling Qi's exact Way, since Xin said it was necessary for advancing past Cyan. Obviously there are benefits for doing so before then, but it's not a requirement.

All the talk about Argent made me wonder if the silver liquid could be used to make a talisman boosting Argent Arts?
 
We never really looked into perception arts. Or music. Or much of anything, really.

In fact, we've hardy looked into the library at all.

Part of that is just action economy. The other part is the grab bag nature of the library, I think.
We haven't had (or I haven't noticed) very many "gather general background information" actions available at all. For example, our available action for the library has been to pick out four arts based on general criteria, pick one, and retroactively train it. We haven't had the option to, say, look at twenty different arts but drop the training component.

We're also still missing basic parts of the background lore. What's the relative effectiveness of spirit stones? All we know so far is that cost is 1:10:500:? while effectiveness is 1:5:?:?. What sort of non-standard pills will production students be able to make after 9 months at the sect? How rare and how effective are escape talismans? How much is a typical disciple spending on kitting themselves out and on their weekly cultivation? How strong is the Golden Fields Group compared to other five man teams out harvesting the wilderness?

Ling Qi is very good at digging up what she needs to know right now but she suffers from some tunnel vision for sure.
 
There was that option to look into poetry-dude books. Would probably have given some background info.
We hardly used the library free pass either.
It's a bit late now, but i'm sure we could have either traded it some something useful, or lend it to someone for them to burn hours in there and gather info for us.
Pretty sure a lot of normal disciples would have been more than happy to do it for free access to the, arguably, biggest Sect Ressource.

Looking back, the pass is the biggest untapped tool, and most probably a significant planning error.
 
It's not really worthwhile to slow down and make up for missed opportunities right now.

But green will probably take a year or more to clear. We can probably afford to branch out a bit.
 
My feeling is that trying to plant evidence against ourselves in that way is too risky, and would fall under "excessively clever plan that will probably backfire" category.

Better if we just try to avoid any overt connection to it.
The easiest thing to do would be to add a condition that if Ling Qi flawless stealths her way through the mission then she should summon some worms and have them tunnel up into and then rampage through her targets as she makes her getaway. I don't think anybody but Meizhen has seen Ling Qi use AE. Nobody would have any reason to question the surface story that Yan Renshu was looking to flex some muscle and knock down his competition.

To sell the illusion she'd have to limit herself to stealing small high-value stuff instead of literally everything. She'd also want to hold off on public use of AE until the end of year tournament. Pretty reasonable sacrifices to make in order to pull off the trifecta of paying back Fu Xiang, pocketing shinies, and turning neutrals against Yan Renshu.
 
Problem with framing Yan Renshu is that there is no motive. Renshu is green cultivator capable of creating Sable Light Pill, he will almost certainly get 1 place in production exam.
 
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General population are not detectives, they don't need a ironclad motive to believe bullshit. The fact that he can do it, and could benefit somewhat from it is enough for 99% of people.
Assuming someone manages to get a rumor started that's going that way of course. Someone like Fu Xiang.
 
General population are not detectives, they don't need a ironclad motive to believe bullshit. The fact that he can do it, and could benefit somewhat from it is enough for 99% of people.
With perhaps the added side benefit of Yan Renshu looking slightly unhinged even to his allies as he continues to blame all of his woes on Ling Qi, the Reed Richards to his Doctor Doom.
 
With all the discussion of our build I thought it might be a good idea to look at the good quality builds we've seen so we have some idea of what we should be aiming for in terms of arts supporting each other.

We have three examples of what good art synergy is supposed to look like. Two of them are mentioned here:
Not the way Xiulan's skills empowered her flames, or Meizhen's all supported her utterly impregnable defense.
It is worth noting that Meizhen's suite is focused on her combat role rather than an element or weapon.

Unfortunately we don't have a lot of details about their arts. The third example of art synergy, however, is something we are very familiar with: SCS, FVM and EPC, three techniques personally handed to us by the Moon, selected for us and of a quality even Meizhen respects.

We've known they work together from the beginning, FVM creating the low light conditions for SCS, but I wanted to see if there was anything else to learn from them

Upon studying them I realized they reinforced each other even better than I had remembered.

Short version?
It's been said before, but Ling Qi is basically a horror movie.
P.S. Sneak Atttack FTW.

In more detail,
EPC and SCS both give passive bonuses to stealth, but SCS works better in low light
Mist of the Vale+Diapason creates low light and gives a bonus to stealth and a penalty to enemy perception
SCS gives a passive bonus to attacking unaware enemies, such as enemies who couldn't perceive you because you were stealthed
One With Shadow gives an even bigger surprise-attack bonus and an additional stealth bonus
Despair of the Lost completely isolates a target from their companions IF our stealth can beat their perception.
And if our stealth is good enough that they can't perceive the target that also means that they can't perceive us while we kill the target.

One moment, your buddy is right beside you in the creepy fog, the next moment he's vanished into thin air, and the moment after that he's a corpse.


Looking at the whole set a coherent combat style begins to emerge. SCS gives its bonuses for surprise attacking people, not for staying engaged. Combined with our stealth bonuses this suggests hit-and-fade tactics. We attack them one turn and the next turn we break off to reestablish stealth so that we can surprise them again. Our attack pattern would basically go: Attack> disengage> attack> disengage etc.

Now, only attacking every other turn would normally be very inefficient exceeeeept... We have a bunch of debuffs. The every-other-turn nature of SCS create a natural place in our attack pattern for our debuffs, including techniques from FVM. So now our pattern goes Debuff> attack>Buff> attack>Debuff etc.

These arts really do work together beautifully and I think we should build on that.

So I sat down and asked myself what kind of arts would we need to support this foundation. I didn't want to just say "get a music art" or "get an archery art" because simply stacking passive bonuses to the same stat is clearly not good enough.

The simplest thing to add to this combo would probably be Sneak Attack art, an art that gives bonuses to remaining undetected and gives bonus dice/damage if you attack people by surprise. Maybe something that gives a bonus based on how badly your stealth beat their perception.

Since a number of our bonuses become even better in complete darkness, an art that provides darkness rather than just low light could help. Shadow Mantle art, that cloaks the user in a cloud of living darkness, or an art that surrounds a target enemy in darkness, which would both debuff them and mean that when we attacked them we would get our bonuses for being in complete darkness. Of course, a generic cloud of darkness is also a possibility but I wanted to add something new to the toolbox as well rather than just a second FVM type AoE debuff.

Passive Stealth Art might be useful, assuming SCS doesn't develop this on its own. An art that lets you automatically enter stealth without spending in action in low light or darkness would let us use more than just instant debuffs when we disengage. Admittedly, most of our buffs/debuffs are instant, but you can see how an art like that might be mediocre for other people but combines amazingly for us to boost our action efficiency.

I've tried to come up with a pithy name to describe this sort of build but the best I can come up with is Movie Monster. Zhengui, on the other hand, with his ambush techniques, will clearly be a Ninja Turtle.


Aside on the limitations of playing FVM :
FVM can currently be sustained for six turns after we stop playing (4 tech+1 passive+1 flute) and the duration is likely to continue extending. If we spend one or two turns at the start casting it that would be eight turns, which is longer than most of the battles we'd ever faced. I don't think having to stop playing FVM in order to attack people is going to be much of a problem. If we really want to keep it going we can even use the flute to sustain it during the turn when we attack people and then resume playing afterwards.

Losing a turn to switching between the flute and a weapon has already been addressed, either by dropping the flute, attacking with it, or buying a second storage ring so we aren't trying to move objects in and out of the same storage ring at the same time.

FVM is actually quite robust, tactically.



TL;DR SCS, FVM and EPC are an extremely synergistic combo and art synergy isn't about stacking elemental art bonuses it's about techniques that make each other stronger e.g. a stealth art and a sneak attack art, if hitting people also made the stealth art better.
 
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Problem with framing Yan Renshu is that there is no motive. Renshu is green cultivator capable of creating Sable Light Pill, he will almost certainly get 1 place in production exam.
Fu Xiang is also green production, and I think YR kept a lot of his abilities secret. He might have been able to create high-end pills, but if no one knows it he can't use it as a defence.
 
Looking at the whole set a coherent combat style begins to emerge. SCS gives its bonuses for surprise attacking people, not for staying engaged. Combined with our stealth bonuses this suggests hit-and-fade tactics. We attack them one turn and the next turn we break off to reestablish stealth so that we can surprise them again. Our attack pattern would basically go: Attack> disengage> attack> disengage etc.
I like the idea of this but I don't think Ling Qi has ever successfully hidden from somebody in the mist.
 
I like the idea of this but I don't think Ling Qi has ever successfully hidden from somebody in the mist.
While I dislike the idea as I believe we have no reason to actually go sneak attack so much once we have gained stealth, as we have already won and sneak attacking all the time is just feels-good at that point, we have consistently hidden from people in the mist.

We have successfully hidden from Sun Liling, from thunderboy, from worm mimic, from Hong Lin. The big thing is that they can try to find us again each turn, though. So a active defence of stealth means being good enough at stealth not only to be able to hide ourself in the mist, but make sure they cannot actually find us.

This is obviously harder when we have many enemies and try to engage with some while also hiding from others (playing the tank for allies), or when the enemies have auto-successes on us (sun liling), but that's mainly a question of 'getting our stealth high enough'.

But yeah: what's excellent about music and effects like AE is that they can be used in a big area and are constant dots. They don't need us to actually leave stealth to keep using them, our buff likewise might not need us to leave it... and our debuff greatly profit from us being in stealth thanks to significantly better dice there.

In big fights with allies, obviously, we would obviously need to play a much more active role where we often leave and re-enter stealth as we need to co-ordinate our allies, too, but even then we can benefit.
 
You know... people keep going on about AE's summons...

But they cost 10 qi before reduction, with extras costing 6 qi unreducable.

You know what we could get for that much qi? Another spirit. And it would probably be significantly stronger.

Like, by the look of things if we're wanting to play summoner (which is a good move given our support build) getting lots of pokemon looks like it could actually make more sense than using arts.
 
We have successfully hidden from Sun Liling, from thunderboy, from worm mimic, from Hong Lin. The big thing is that they can try to find us again each turn, though. So a active defence of stealth means being good enough at stealth not only to be able to hide ourself in the mist, but make sure they cannot actually find us.
If they find us, I don't think it's not really successfully hiding. The "hiding" from Hong Lin purchased us exactly one round of a missed attack. Sun Liling has never been impeded by the mist in trying to hit us:
Thunderdome redux said:
Ling Qi looked up at the sound of Sun Liling's distorted voice in time to see the girl seeming to float midair, well above her mist. The extra limbs she had grown had solidified fully, growing muscle and armor over bone. She only had a moment to look upon the girl as she flung her spear downward and it exploded into a hundred blazing streaks of bloody light. Then she could only dodge, and desperately flare her qi, blasting out a circle of wind to deflect the deadly rain.

20/43 Qi

[*][*][X][X][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

Ling Qi screamed as several of the jagged blood shards tore right through her spinning winds, slicing across her limbs and in one case embedding itself in her stomach. The wounds burned painfully, and she could see smoke rising from her wounds as the skin around them blackened and burned.
Thunderdome redux said:
She felt a hint of satisfaction as she felt the qi gathering of the flowers slow to a meagre trickle, even as Gu Xiualn's fireball carved a wide circle of destruction in the flowers that remained outside of her mist. It was only momentary though, as her instincts screamed at her to move.

A crimson blur tore through her mist, scattering it as Ling Qi desperately ducked beneath a blur of blood red metal she could barely see, her eyes widening as she realized that Sun liling had come straight at her.


4/43 qi

She could only fall back, desperately dodging attacks that came from impossible angles, the twin swords in the girls extra arms hemming her in and reducing her options. She ducked and weaved, desperately avoiding the thorny point of the demonic figures spear, but it was in vain. She had an instant of regret as dodged the wrong direction and saw the incoming red blur.

Pain lanced through her stomach as she felt the barbed spear slam into her abdomen and her vision exploded into stars as the burning agony of the girls corrosive blood overwhelmed her, sending Ling Qi spiralling into darkness.

[*][*][*][*][*][X][X][X][X][X]

Ling Qi incapacitated
Princess interrupt said:
Well, that didn't last as long as she would have liked, still she had a line of retreat planned now. Ling Qi raised her flute to her lips and began her melody, mist pouring from her flute in a rapidly expanding circle. It engulfed Sun Liling and the entire clearing they stood in within moments, but Ling Qi couldn't help but grimace as the qi washed over Sun Liling without taking hold. The only sign of her resistance a slight hazy aura around her head and flare of bright yellow in the depths of her pupils.

Then she had other things to worry about. That ugly spear screamed through the air toward her, and it took everything she had to avoid being impaled, it carved through the winds protecting her body, barely offset, but the fraction of a second it took to tear through them allowed her to activate her most used defensive art and twist away, liquid darkness trailing from her limbs.

It still wasn't enough. Red hot pain lanced up her spine as the spear tore a bloody gauge out of her side. She felt it scrape against her ribs, and despite herself a sob of pain interrupted her song. It didn't matter though, she wasn't going to continue playing anyway when she could hide. The important thing was the cover it granted her.

I genuinely don't remember ever getting stealth dice to an attack by way of the mist. I'm happy to concede the point if there's a counterexample.
 
You know... people keep going on about AE's summons...

But they cost 10 qi before reduction, with extras costing 6 qi unreducable.

You know what we could get for that much qi? Another spirit. And it would probably be significantly stronger.

Like, by the look of things if we're wanting to play summoner (which is a good move given our support build) getting lots of pokemon looks like it could actually make more sense than using arts.

While I understand your point, I think the comparison isn't that accurate.

The qi we spend on summons can be reduced with talismans, and the qi we lose can be brought back with restoratives and meditation. The qi we spend on a spirit is is much harder to reduce and is a permanent reduction. We can't bring it back. Not to mention all the majors/minors we have to spend are hell on action economy. Makes it even harder to be social if we want to maintain a good relationship with our spirit.

So, yes I get what you're trying to say, but it's not an apt comparison. We don't have to spend any actions on making sure our worms are nice and obedient and they like us. They're also not a permanent drain on our qi.
 
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