Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
I wouldn't call it Fascism. In this context it would be more like Legalism, except with far more state bureaucratic capacity than Imperial China, which could never manage anything below the county level, ever had.
Though Legalism, implemented to its extremes, could be quite nasty.
And now this.
I'm not projecting. I'm arguing for a better outcome than just ignoring our problems.
Plus, you really should have some sympathy OOC. Imagine how the thread would have reacted if we had been ambushed by our boss' enforcers and lost weeks of cultivation when we had been actively doing what she told us to. All told, he was a better council member than we were at the time, because he bothered actually trying to do something to help. We kind of blew the whole thing off until we were forced to do something.
I guarantee you that Ji Rong's reaction of joining the side that rescued him would have been the least of our reactions.
Just look at Yan or Sun when they finally annoyed us enough.
No, just...no. Waaaaaaay too far.
Of course, one can take the position that this is an alien setting, and so incomperable to real life, and that there is no good or evil, only power, as I mentioned before.
When you're using it as the narrative to justify your own violent conquest and domination? Yes. CRX is a classic fascist. She hits pretty much all the points. Including the aesthetics.
Idealism is one of the core philosophical approaches that fascist ideologies are considered to try to realise. There's no conflict between idealism and fascism, they're very much complementary. Lots of fascists were idealists. It makes it much easier to believe that the ends justify the means that way.
Italian fascism was a very successful ideology, and its mythology of the unification of all classes in service to the nation as incarnated as the Leader seems very much in keeping with both Shenhua and CRX.
The aesthetics and implicit revolutionary narratives are very non-legalistic. Just look at how the take over of the Outer Sect was justified and sold. It's archetypal fascism. Right down to it being a manufactured lie.
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Actually Jingles...
Punishing a loyal subordinate when they did nothing wrong is pretty bad, even in setting. That's the kind of thing that has your other vessels side-eyeing you real hard. it's a good thing it happened here rather than out in real life where would have had some very serious consequences. And again, this is a lesson that Cai needs to learn. Moderation is good but she has to be careful for it comes to use her justice as a weapon. Even pure tyranny is better than unrighteous Justice. At least with tyranny people know what rules they're operating under.
Thankfully she never did punish a loyal subordinate so why bring it up?
I guess I ws talking more about Cai Shenhua.
I didn't get that much of a revolutionary vibe from CRX. Do you mind pointing out where you saw it? I saw boilerplate "We need more order and less chaos" reformist stuff
Yes, but Cai has none of that. Service to her is actually very light and loose. Her laws, rather than imposing a list of things you have to do, are a list of things not to do to each other. We have more obligations, but that is because we accepted a job offer from her. And we have been paid handsomely for it. If you are going to compare her to the period of transition between tribalism and feudalism for the Vikings. A council of theoretical equals where one is more equal than the rest.
... I can't quite tell if you're being sarcastic or serious.
- Location
- The Void
Really think that people throw the word 'fascism' a little too much, fascisme is explicitly a form of populism using militarism and nationalism to establish its powerbase, not something that should be used to describe a the politic environment of a multi ethnic Empire that spent 30k years being a feudalistic wet dream, it really seems like you are just using buzz words because you really don't like the Cai path without knowing anything behind them
what you could have said is that Shenhua wants to build an absolute monarchy/totalitarianism gouvernement, I would have agreed with that since it is basically true but totalitarianism =/= fascism, and really CRX's all thing is that she doesn't want to follow in her Mother's footsteep without even talking about the fact that "fight against corruption" type of speech isn't a fascist things, everyone used it at one point, from the American Revolution to the French Revolution, you are just equating 'trying to motivate people against the very real injustice of the society they live in' to the Hitler youth.
Sundancer
Always drifting~
- Location
- Germany
No, respectfully, I am not engaging with you about this topic. You have derailed the past several pages with this issue, and I am not about to give you more ammunition. It is not relevant. Try and bring it up again when Ji Rong is actually relevant to the story again and I *might* actually support you. Right now, you are wasting space, bandwidth and are counter-productive to your own cause.
I think we shouldn't investigate anything regarding Ji Rong's crime and punishment earlier this year. Not because of Ji Rong; we don't have any particular enmity with him, and he is no less deserving of justice than anybody else. But because investigating something that happened eight months ago is highly unlikely to bear fruit.
Like, I don't see people calling for an investigation of how we were being framed early in the year, and unlike the Ji Rong case we actually know there was a crime committed here.
Like, I don't see people calling for an investigation of how we were being framed early in the year, and unlike the Ji Rong case we actually know there was a crime committed here.
You mean like I've tried several times now? It has become blindingly obvious to me that if I don't push and keep pushing, people are just going to disregard even the possibility, forgetting it as quickly as possible. And deciding to just not engage someone debating a point you brought up yourself is pretty tacky.
That's because I'm pretty sure that Cai took care of the issue. She was quite upset that someone tried to frame us.
She was upset, but we have no indication that she knew who it was that was framing us, much less that she has done anything about it.
So? Where are the calls for looking into what happened there? We might discover a hidden enemy that we didn't know about who has been sabotaging us all this time; think of how valuable that would be to Cai's cause!
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
So as far as I understand it fascism is an ideological idea whose goal is to have everything serve the state. Cai seems much more focused on law and order rather than service to the state. While fascism often uses the argument of law and order to get their fascist ball rolling it's not what they care about. What they care about is using the law and the "order" to force people into service towards the state. Cai instead seems way more focused on having the laws as they are currently written enforced. We can see this when we go and study law under her. Cai doesn't go about making speeches on how these laws are bad and how she would change them. She gives us the primer and says first you need to study this. An ideal where everyone follows the law is what CRX seems to be striving for. However, just because everyone follows the laws does not mean that everyone serves the state.
The key thing with fascism is the state. Everything serves the state, especially the law. CRX seems much more as everything serves the law, especially the state. This is a key difference. If CRX had fascist ideas she would not have punished Ji Rong since the state would not benefit from having such a high talented person leaving.
So while there may be somethings pointing towards fascism there are just as many that point away from fascism. The final straw in the fascism argument I believe is the fact that CRX seems to embrace feudalism. Feudalism, no matter how top heavy, makes fascism all but impossible as the lower levels of nobility have power that is not the "states power."
Yeah, I want to forget about it. I want to stop thinking about Ji Rong. He used to be a distant like for me, a character I didn't have as a favorite but whenever he appeared on screen I'd quietly cheer him on because I knew he would probably do something cool.
Now, I really do honestly wish he dies doing his military service if it means he never has to come up in these debates ever again. It's exhausting reading him getting brought up over and over again with the same points being redone with nothing new to add but increasing vitriol.
Path of the Mighty
- Location
- United States of America
In the interest of providing something new to chew on, Here's another Omake for the Omake Throne @yrsillar !
This omake was inspired by the idea of some poor sop next year trying to figure out what made Ling Qi so powerful. He had heard about the super scary commoner from last year, got enough information to figure Su Ling knew Ling Qi, and then did a ton of tasks for Gan to get him to arrange a meeting between him and Su Ling.
We have certainly made an impact amongst the sect this year, and that will ripple for at least a couple of years to come. Not my finest work, but I hope that people enjoy the read! As always, critiques and criticisms welcomed.
Path of the Mighty
Li Chang inspected the small hut with smoke curling up from it's chimney on the outskirts of the older student residents of the Outer Sect in the Argent Peaks. It was… smaller than he expected from an influential production track student. However, Sir Gan had been adamant that this was the person and place who held the best answers to his question.
Lady Su was known to be a large supplier of Sir Gan's "troops" as he liked to call them, and she was compensated handsomely for her work. It was interesting that she hadn't flexed her influence to get a more prestigious abode, but if the rumors and hearsay were true about her heritage, then simple dwellings might simply be more comfortable for her.
Taking a deep breath, Li Chang prepared himself and approached the entrance of the dwelling. He was here to get answers, hopefully, or at least another angle to work on. The meeting had been pre-arranged by Sir Gan, so at the very least he wasn't going to be an unanticipated or uninvited guest.
His hands rapped against the wood of the door with a thud, three times. Then, it was the wait. It took a few moments before Lady Su opened the door. She looked like a humanoid fox, with sharp features, somewhat unkempt tresses, bushy canine ears, and three twitching white tipped tails behind her. Which meant that the rumors about her heritage were probably true.
Su Ling looked around, up at the sun, and then looked at him, and asked, "Are you Li Chang?"
Li Chang took a breath before answering, "I am, Lady Su, I believe we had an appointment scheduled for today?"
"We won't have an appointment at all if you keep calling me Lady Su, you can call me Su Ling or I can throw you out onto the street."
"I understand… Su Ling. Could we please talk inside, however?"
Su Ling nodded, turned around and briskly began walking back inside of her home. Li Chang followed, off-kilter about Su Ling's abrupt demeanor. The door closing automatically and the slight rush of qi signifying formations being activated did not comfort him in the least. Now that he was in the house he could sense potent qi in the various rooms, locked behind solid looking wooden doors.
He was led to a small sitting room, with a polished silver table and a black teapot with steaming tea ready to be poured. Su Ling poured two cups and set them at either end of the table. She chose to sit at the far end of the small table facing the doorway, and Li Chang took a seat opposite her.
He sipped at the tea for a moment, enjoying the taste, before looking up at Su Ling.
"So," Su Ling began, "Gan Guangli actually paid me to sit down with you and answer one of your questions, which is why we are even having this conversation. However, the quicker I answer your question, the quicker I can actually begin to do useful stuff, so start asking."
Li Chang started, this was not how this conversation was supposed to go! Taking a deep breath and centering himself, Li Chang prepared his question in his mind.
"Su Ling, I understand that you knew Lady Ling well, and I've talked to a lot of the older students, and Ling Qi seemed to be the only commoner that all the older years seem to respect and still fear a bit. So my question is, how did Lady Ling get to be that strong and influential in under a year?"
Su Ling snorted, "the same as every other commoner who becomes a cultivator. Ling Qi had the talent and dedication to get to the top."
That was not the answer he wanted to hear. So with a breath, Li Chang started again, "I understand that is the basics of pushing yourself forward along the path of cultivation, but if that was all that there was then more commoners would reach Lady Ling's cultivation stage at her age. There has to be a trick to Lady Ling's growth. Anything you know would be helpful."
Su Ling peered at him, analyzing Li Chang like he was some sort of prey. It was a distinctly uncomfortable experience. But then she began to lightly chuckle.
"You want an advantage over your fellow commoners, don't you? Well, I can tell that whatever you think is dedication is not nearly the dedication that Ling Qi has for cultivation. If Ling Qi was breathing, chances were good that she was cultivating, networking, or gathering sect points and resources to cultivate."
Li Chang sat there, stunned. This was not the answer he wanted! He wanted, no needed, an edge, any edge, to get him to the top so he could get into the Inner Sect. But instead, the answer was simply to work harder, and nothing useful or insightful. All his work for Sir Gan to get this audience, all of it had burned and crashed around his head. He was dimly aware of Su Ling standing up and crossing the room to stand next to him.
"There are no shortcuts to greatness Li Chang, no pill to make you surpass your peers. And even if there was, I wouldn't give that information to you, not for any amount Gan Guangli would pay me. A single question was the extent that I was willing to allow, mainly because I was expecting something about my crafting methods, but a deal was a deal. I'm sure you can find your way out, and I would advise you not to try my patience. Have a good day, and I wish you luck on your goal."
Su Ling entered the hall and turned into one of the rooms filled with potent qi, leaving Li Chang sitting at the table. Slowly Li Chang stood up, and turned around and began walking towards the exit. All his work and progress was for naught. He supposed that he just needed to grit his teeth and accept that he simply needed to work harder than even his friends. He would probably have to stop hanging out with them at the teahouse every evening. Maybe… every other evening would be enough for him to pull ahead?
A/N: Whelp here is an influential Su Ling giving the hard advice to a poor commoner cultivator. Thank you for the read, and I hope you enjoyed it!
This omake was inspired by the idea of some poor sop next year trying to figure out what made Ling Qi so powerful. He had heard about the super scary commoner from last year, got enough information to figure Su Ling knew Ling Qi, and then did a ton of tasks for Gan to get him to arrange a meeting between him and Su Ling.
We have certainly made an impact amongst the sect this year, and that will ripple for at least a couple of years to come. Not my finest work, but I hope that people enjoy the read! As always, critiques and criticisms welcomed.
Path of the Mighty
Li Chang inspected the small hut with smoke curling up from it's chimney on the outskirts of the older student residents of the Outer Sect in the Argent Peaks. It was… smaller than he expected from an influential production track student. However, Sir Gan had been adamant that this was the person and place who held the best answers to his question.
Lady Su was known to be a large supplier of Sir Gan's "troops" as he liked to call them, and she was compensated handsomely for her work. It was interesting that she hadn't flexed her influence to get a more prestigious abode, but if the rumors and hearsay were true about her heritage, then simple dwellings might simply be more comfortable for her.
Taking a deep breath, Li Chang prepared himself and approached the entrance of the dwelling. He was here to get answers, hopefully, or at least another angle to work on. The meeting had been pre-arranged by Sir Gan, so at the very least he wasn't going to be an unanticipated or uninvited guest.
His hands rapped against the wood of the door with a thud, three times. Then, it was the wait. It took a few moments before Lady Su opened the door. She looked like a humanoid fox, with sharp features, somewhat unkempt tresses, bushy canine ears, and three twitching white tipped tails behind her. Which meant that the rumors about her heritage were probably true.
Su Ling looked around, up at the sun, and then looked at him, and asked, "Are you Li Chang?"
Li Chang took a breath before answering, "I am, Lady Su, I believe we had an appointment scheduled for today?"
"We won't have an appointment at all if you keep calling me Lady Su, you can call me Su Ling or I can throw you out onto the street."
"I understand… Su Ling. Could we please talk inside, however?"
Su Ling nodded, turned around and briskly began walking back inside of her home. Li Chang followed, off-kilter about Su Ling's abrupt demeanor. The door closing automatically and the slight rush of qi signifying formations being activated did not comfort him in the least. Now that he was in the house he could sense potent qi in the various rooms, locked behind solid looking wooden doors.
He was led to a small sitting room, with a polished silver table and a black teapot with steaming tea ready to be poured. Su Ling poured two cups and set them at either end of the table. She chose to sit at the far end of the small table facing the doorway, and Li Chang took a seat opposite her.
He sipped at the tea for a moment, enjoying the taste, before looking up at Su Ling.
"So," Su Ling began, "Gan Guangli actually paid me to sit down with you and answer one of your questions, which is why we are even having this conversation. However, the quicker I answer your question, the quicker I can actually begin to do useful stuff, so start asking."
Li Chang started, this was not how this conversation was supposed to go! Taking a deep breath and centering himself, Li Chang prepared his question in his mind.
"Su Ling, I understand that you knew Lady Ling well, and I've talked to a lot of the older students, and Ling Qi seemed to be the only commoner that all the older years seem to respect and still fear a bit. So my question is, how did Lady Ling get to be that strong and influential in under a year?"
Su Ling snorted, "the same as every other commoner who becomes a cultivator. Ling Qi had the talent and dedication to get to the top."
That was not the answer he wanted to hear. So with a breath, Li Chang started again, "I understand that is the basics of pushing yourself forward along the path of cultivation, but if that was all that there was then more commoners would reach Lady Ling's cultivation stage at her age. There has to be a trick to Lady Ling's growth. Anything you know would be helpful."
Su Ling peered at him, analyzing Li Chang like he was some sort of prey. It was a distinctly uncomfortable experience. But then she began to lightly chuckle.
"You want an advantage over your fellow commoners, don't you? Well, I can tell that whatever you think is dedication is not nearly the dedication that Ling Qi has for cultivation. If Ling Qi was breathing, chances were good that she was cultivating, networking, or gathering sect points and resources to cultivate."
Li Chang sat there, stunned. This was not the answer he wanted! He wanted, no needed, an edge, any edge, to get him to the top so he could get into the Inner Sect. But instead, the answer was simply to work harder, and nothing useful or insightful. All his work for Sir Gan to get this audience, all of it had burned and crashed around his head. He was dimly aware of Su Ling standing up and crossing the room to stand next to him.
"There are no shortcuts to greatness Li Chang, no pill to make you surpass your peers. And even if there was, I wouldn't give that information to you, not for any amount Gan Guangli would pay me. A single question was the extent that I was willing to allow, mainly because I was expecting something about my crafting methods, but a deal was a deal. I'm sure you can find your way out, and I would advise you not to try my patience. Have a good day, and I wish you luck on your goal."
Su Ling entered the hall and turned into one of the rooms filled with potent qi, leaving Li Chang sitting at the table. Slowly Li Chang stood up, and turned around and began walking towards the exit. All his work and progress was for naught. He supposed that he just needed to grit his teeth and accept that he simply needed to work harder than even his friends. He would probably have to stop hanging out with them at the teahouse every evening. Maybe… every other evening would be enough for him to pull ahead?
A/N: Whelp here is an influential Su Ling giving the hard advice to a poor commoner cultivator. Thank you for the read, and I hope you enjoyed it!
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- Location
- The Temple of the Winds
There's plenty of Saints in this death-world setting. The fact that they're all dead or toddlers doesn't negate the previous fact.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- They/Them
But toddlers are self absorbed little monsters that contribute nothing to the betterment of their societies! Generally speaking anyway. I'm sure the Sage saved villages from rampaging spirits and such at that age but most aren't so helpful.There's plenty of Saints in this death-world setting. The fact that they're all dead or toddlers doesn't negate the previous fact.
Sundancer
Always drifting~
- Location
- Germany
Nice Omake, I like other perspectives or seeing more of the world. And poor Li Chang is in for a treat if he wants to enter the "serious" Cultivator stage.
My main question is actually... does Ling Qi even *know* where the teahouse is? After 1+ year in the Sect?