Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[tricholysis]

Because we might both be heroes but he is a antiestablishment hero and we are a reformist.

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Now, I don't actually expect that dynamic, since Ling Qi and Ji Rong aren't childhood friends.

(Well, unless we go, like, 300 years down the line, and if nothing's happened in the meantime and they happen to meet at a party, then maybe they could start to reminisce about the good ol' days in the Outer Sect, when kids could be kids and channel a million volts of lightning through their sparring partner's viscera while being ripped apart and frozen by a localized stormfront. You know, kid stuff. But also we know that something's going to happen in the meantime. But if nothing did happen, then I could see it. But something's gonna happen.)

But that show's where my mind went on reading that sentence.

 

[adaer]

Nobody actually argued that except the people trying to defend him.

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I mean, there was someone who was saying that, with the implication that his being a thug automatically disqualified him from being worth anything. I really don't care enough to go looking for it, though, and I think I've been pretty clear that it's not that I feel like he's a terrible person, I just don't think it's worth working to try and turn him. Like, this is the third time I've said that in two pages. I've been clear about not saying we're better than him or anything, so I don't really know why you're replying to me with all of that?

 

[Yeangst]

At the end of the day, Ji Rong is a mortal with a knack for cultivation. He takes on outsized importance in our minds because he has characteristics of more important characters in other stories in the genre, and because he was obviously an option we could have selected in chargen.

But looking solely at this story, from a doylist perspective, he's a tertiary character at best- he has a few lines of dialogue every 10 chapters or so, and his most prominent role was the muscle for the main antagonist of the final arc. From a watsonian perspective, talented commoners aren't exactly rare in the empire. We're sure to encounter others who don't have his baggage.

 

[Shinr]

A question about Face:

The first time I explicitly learned about the concept of Face beyond the stereotypical Asian group mentality was from a comprehensive /tg/ post about Ancient and Fantasy China, how Wuxia and Xianxia fit into it, the concept of layers and so on. One of the examples given was:

A group chases a boy for whatever reason, both came across a strong cultivator who decides to protect the boy and does so by politely requesting the group stop chasing him, at which point the group are "doing him a favor" by complying. And the Cultivator, by the rules of the face-based society, now actually owes a favor to the group. Sure, there may be limits to what the favor can be due to social standing and power discrepancy, but even a small favor can potentially screw the cultivator.

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight? The only answers I can think of is either for the group to already owe favors to the cultivator or to be so powerful that the group doesn't even dare to antagonize the cultivator.

 

[redaeth]

Eh from my perspective Ji Rong is an enemy's subordinate and while we could befriend him it'll take just that much more effort to do so and I see no real reason to do so. There are going to be a whole slew of new people to meet and there is really no reason to prioritize Ji Rong when there are easier, more worthwhile connections.

 

[Yeangst]

A question about Face:

The first time I explicitly learned about the concept of Face beyond the stereotypical Asian group mentality was from a comprehensive /tg/ post about Ancient and Fantasy China, how Wuxia and Xianxia fit into it, the concept of layers and so on. One of the examples given was:

A group chases a boy for whatever reason, both came across a strong cultivator who decides to protect the boy and does so by politely requesting the group stop chasing him, at which point the group are "doing him a favor" by complying. And the Cultivator, by the rules of the face-based society, now actually owes a favor to the group. Sure, there may be limits to what the favor can be due to social standing and power discrepancy, but even a small favor can potentially screw the cultivator.

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight? The only answers I can think of is either for the group to already owe favors to the cultivator or to be so powerful that the group doesn't even dare to antagonize the cultivator.

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I always thought it was overblown how alien the concept of Face is to Western society, and it smacks of Orientalism. The word is even used fairly often now as a straight one-for-one translation, but in most contexts, you can substitute 'respect', 'pride', 'reputation', 'esteem', 'prestige' or 'honor'.

As for the specific situation your talking about, look at the scenario in the Karate Kid is a fairly good guide. Cobra Kai chases Daniel, looking to kick his ass and Mr Miyagi steps in to stop them. Miyagi eventually has to negotiate with John Kreese, the Cobra Kai sensei.

 

[Dark as Silver]

As the formations mists rose, and and solidified, forming a maze of roots beneath her feet and a sweltering sun above her head, shining through the high tropical canopy of a thick jungle landscape, so overgrown that a man might hardly be able to pass through between any given pair of tree trunks, Ling Qi could only stare at her grinning opponent.

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Well, this sounds like Sun's home field.

 

[archangis]

A question about Face:

The first time I explicitly learned about the concept of Face beyond the stereotypical Asian group mentality was from a comprehensive /tg/ post about Ancient and Fantasy China, how Wuxia and Xianxia fit into it, the concept of layers and so on. One of the examples given was:

A group chases a boy for whatever reason, both came across a strong cultivator who decides to protect the boy and does so by politely requesting the group stop chasing him, at which point the group are "doing him a favor" by complying. And the Cultivator, by the rules of the face-based society, now actually owes a favor to the group. Sure, there may be limits to what the favor can be due to social standing and power discrepancy, but even a small favor can potentially screw the cultivator.

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight? The only answers I can think of is either for the group to already owe favors to the cultivator or to be so powerful that the group doesn't even dare to antagonize the cultivator.

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Violently murder the cultivators. To be fair, in xianxia that's generally the answer no matter the question.

 

[Falconis]

A question about Face:

The first time I explicitly learned about the concept of Face beyond the stereotypical Asian group mentality was from a comprehensive /tg/ post about Ancient and Fantasy China, how Wuxia and Xianxia fit into it, the concept of layers and so on. One of the examples given was:

A group chases a boy for whatever reason, both came across a strong cultivator who decides to protect the boy and does so by politely requesting the group stop chasing him, at which point the group are "doing him a favor" by complying. And the Cultivator, by the rules of the face-based society, now actually owes a favor to the group. Sure, there may be limits to what the favor can be due to social standing and power discrepancy, but even a small favor can potentially screw the cultivator.

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight? The only answers I can think of is either for the group to already owe favors to the cultivator or to be so powerful that the group doesn't even dare to antagonize the cultivator.

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Beyond what the others have said, there is also another matter to consider.

Certainly, the cultivator now owes the scrubs a favor (which he or she will usually fill immediately if the setting has karma as a consideration), but can they even collect on that favor?
In many cases unless the favor was deep enough, simply asking the cultivator to do anything would constitute a loss of face greater than whatever small thing the cultivator asked in the first place due to their status differences. It is essentially a resource you can't tap, and you instead just have to hold on to it and hope that one day if you get on the cultivators bad side for any reason he remembers you and lets you go. (i.e gives you face)

The vast majority of larger concerns would not be left to face, but settled in another way.

 

[Aoinfinity]

[X] Plan Penultimate Boss Fight

 

[George]

A question about Face:

The first time I explicitly learned about the concept of Face beyond the stereotypical Asian group mentality was from a comprehensive /tg/ post about Ancient and Fantasy China, how Wuxia and Xianxia fit into it, the concept of layers and so on. One of the examples given was:

A group chases a boy for whatever reason, both came across a strong cultivator who decides to protect the boy and does so by politely requesting the group stop chasing him, at which point the group are "doing him a favor" by complying. And the Cultivator, by the rules of the face-based society, now actually owes a favor to the group. Sure, there may be limits to what the favor can be due to social standing and power discrepancy, but even a small favor can potentially screw the cultivator.

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight? The only answers I can think of is either for the group to already owe favors to the cultivator or to be so powerful that the group doesn't even dare to antagonize the cultivator.

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In some settings he could make the boy his disciple and end things without favors or violence, provided he's strong enough the group's backing would take him seriously.

 

[Axel Fones]

We literally have the same feeling about him as we do about Suyin's teacher. It's not even specifically dislike, just a general wariness. For having been on the opposite sides of a conflict for an entire year, that ain't bad! We have a worse relationship with some of our erstwhile allies!

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The relationship dots haven't been updated in so long it's absolutely ridiculous that you're using them as a gospel truth.

 

[Random Shinobi]

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight?

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I think that in your scenario the group of thugs will immediately kowtow and plead for mercy for their great transgression of annoying an honored Immortal. If the cultivator is feeling merciful, he or she will allow the thugs to live and they now own their very lives to the cultivator. Otherwise they simply die.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

A question about Face:

The first time I explicitly learned about the concept of Face beyond the stereotypical Asian group mentality was from a comprehensive /tg/ post about Ancient and Fantasy China, how Wuxia and Xianxia fit into it, the concept of layers and so on. One of the examples given was:

A group chases a boy for whatever reason, both came across a strong cultivator who decides to protect the boy and does so by politely requesting the group stop chasing him, at which point the group are "doing him a favor" by complying. And the Cultivator, by the rules of the face-based society, now actually owes a favor to the group. Sure, there may be limits to what the favor can be due to social standing and power discrepancy, but even a small favor can potentially screw the cultivator.

Is there is a way for the Cultivator to protect the boy without owing favors nor antagonizing the group, or at least not enough to actually seek vengeance for the slight? The only answers I can think of is either for the group to already owe favors to the cultivator or to be so powerful that the group doesn't even dare to antagonize the cultivator.

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Face is essentially an honor system. The honor, respect, and prestige of a person or institution makes up their face, and is a very clear external mechanism as opposed to an internal one.

For your example, the face of the group chasing the boy makes all the difference in what can happen.

If the organization is a no name street gang, they get nothing. Cultivator tells them to go away, they go away or die.

If the organization is a low level but still respected institution, then they truly are owed a minor favor by the Cultivator. They can ask to have a good word on their behalf, or a small monetary recompense that would have no effect of the cultivator's income, or something similar. If the Cultivator fails to make good on the favor, then there's a minor bit of face loss on their behalf, but nothing life altering.

If the organization is a big deal, with members who are peers to the Cultivator, they have a variety of options. One of them is even demanding redress and that the Cultivator 'teach his student properly,' meaning any further transgressions the students makes against the organization reflect badly on the Cultivator.

 

[Alratan]

There's Face, and there's Face in xianxia. The first is pretty analogous to other reputational favour based markets. The other is magical thinking as seen by disenfranchised losers.

 

[Hangwind]

The relationship dots haven't been updated in so long it's absolutely ridiculous that you're using them as a gospel truth.

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It was updated just before the start of the tournament arc. Nothing we have seen would really change anything about that relationship. I mean, the basic gist of our pre-fight banter was:
"You're not what I expected."
"Neither are you."
"Your boss and friends are still dicks though."
"Yours is worse."
...
...
...
"I'ma punch you in the schnoz."

Unlike Sun, he never went out of his way to be cruel or anything, he's just fought hard. If anything, he hits the "honorable enemy" trope.

Edit: His relationship with us reminds me a lot of the relationship between the MC in AC4 and Joshua O'Brien. Rivals, yes, but all business instead of personal. Punchclock enemies as it were.

 

[Axel Fones]

It was updated just before the start of the tournament arc.

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The reputation and relationships informational tab hasn't been edited since June 6. And yeah, that's technically the day before the tournament arc started. But after double checking with others, that was to reflect gear changes for Zhengui, not updating the relationship dots.

 

[Karnax626]

It was updated just before the start of the tournament arc. Nothing we have seen would really change anything about that relationship. I mean, the basic gist of our pre-fight banter was:
"You're not what I expected."
"Neither are you."
"Your boss and friends are still dicks though."
"Yours is worse."
...
...
...
"I'ma punch you in the schnoz."

Unlike Sun, he never went out of his way to be cruel or anything, he's just fought hard. If anything, he hits the "honorable enemy" trope.

Edit: His relationship with us reminds me a lot of the relationship between the MC in AC4 and Joshua O'Brien. Rivals, yes, but all business instead of personal. Punchclock enemies as it were.

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It was updated to add Zhengui's equipment to his stat sheet.

Equipment

Flaming Frond Sash
This small sash is made from a single tropical leaf, and covered with enticing fire artwork that seems to dance as it moves. Physically worn by Zhen. The wearer's Fire and Wood Arts cost 3 less Qi, reducing them to a minimum cost of 1. They also gain a +2 bonus on offensive clashes with Fire and Wood Arts. (cost should be ~200 for speed order)

Ashen Branch Necklace
This thick necklace is shaped like a tangle of roots and vines, but on inspection is actually composed entirely of fused ash. A trace of it rubs off when you touch it, but it never seems to wear down. Physically worn by Gui. The wearer's Fire and Wood Arts cost 2 less Qi, reducing them to a minimum cost of 1. They also gain a +3 bonus on defensive clashes when a Fire or Wood Art is active. (cost should be ~200 for speed order)

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Also, if the actual relationship dots had been updated no way would Cai be 'Cautious Trust'.

Cai Renxiang: oo
-Cautious Trust

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[Hangwind]

The reputation and relationships informational tab hasn't been edited since June 6. And yeah, that's technically the day before the tournament arc started. But after double checking with others, that was to reflect gear changes for Zhengui, not updating the relationship dots.

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It was updated to add Zhengui's equipment to his stat sheet.
Also, if the actual relationship dots had been updated no way would Cai be 'Cautious Trust'.

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Again, I'm not arguing that it's perfectly up to date. I'm saying it's up to date enough that yrs didn't see a reason to change it before the arc. And nothing we've seen since would have changed anything. But let's cut this off at the pass!

@yrsillar has our relationship changed with Ji Rong?

 

[Asael]

Edit: His relationship with us reminds me a lot of the relationship between the MC in AC4 and Joshua O'Brien. Rivals, yes, but all business instead of personal. Punchclock enemies as it were.

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Ling Qi's relationship with Ji Rong is basically non-existent.

They've exchanged a handful of sentences during the entire year. They know each other more by reputation than as actual people.
Stop projecting.

 

[Erebeal]

Yeah. To be frank, the thread thinks about Ji Rong waaayyyy more than Ling Qi does. And that's mostly because the thread keeps projecting protagonism onto him.

 

[Alratan]

To be honest, I think a big part of the problem is that lots of posters haven't realised that, as this video puts it;



They're the bad guys. They're wearing the in setting skulls and everything.

Worse, CRX's pitch is pretty much absolutely classic fascism, in the Italian sense. That too was a crusade for justice, of how a man of superior virtue (on a white horse), would rescue the people from the evils of feudalism and anarchism.

Ling Qi's character arc is also a pretty classic facist apparatchik arc. The downtrodden member of the lower classes* becoming a petty tyrant in service to the rebranded elite is a classic.

* she's actually even more archetypal than that. She's a child of the immiserated bourgeois/petty gentry class. You'd have to really try to hit the stereotype harder.

 

[yrsillar]

Relationship with Ji Rong is still one dot yeah, and wary is probably still the best descriptor

 

[Asael]

@Alratan

You know that thing about projecting I just said?, You can do it too.


I think I'll be leaving for now. This is getting aggravating to deal with.

 

[Sundancer]

I believe the facism or nazi comparison is going too far.

Neither Cai Renxiang, nor Ling Qi are saints or what we would consider explicitly good and moral from a modern point of view. Very few people if any in the setting are. Morals in the setting aren't what we are accustomed to. We can't have Ling Qi behave or judge by our modern morals. In setting, neither her nor Renxiang have done anything particularly bad. Nor are they virtuous saints. It's pretty much a grey on grey situation. While I don't propose to cast morals in the wind and go full edgelady, I also don't want to accuse Ling Qi and Renxiang of facism and all the world evils.

Regarding Ji Rong, I quite frankly don't care. If he appears in story again, we can see about dealing with him.