Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

There's also the bit where Sun Shao sent Sun Liling to a Sect on the opposite side of the empire from his territories, aka as far away from the jungle as possible.

Also, I think there's a bit of hindsight bias going on here. We think it's obvious because we know what to look for and can easily find the clues, but if you don't know what to look for, or even that you should be looking for it... not actually obvious.
 
CR: Ch1-5
Weeks 1-5, Short Review

Review of Smelting

Okay, now we're getting into the quest proper! I decided to split this off from the tests even though I had to restrain myself from reading further (I did read a bunch on the plane but I was re-reading earlier today in more detail). For people who don't remember what actually happened in these weeks: After having acquired the acquaintanceship of her roommate Bai Meizhen, Ling Qi commences her journey into becoming a cultivator. Over the next few weeks she gains a study-mate (Li Suyin) encounters a boy who's a bit of a fucking dick (Fan Yu) and eventually creates a team with Han Jian and Gu Xiulan, who appears to be an especially smiley young psychopath-in-training.

Or, maybe not! I have heard some things about Xianxia. Most of them were not good. Ridiculous power escalation, blood feuds that cause mass slaughter of entire clans when the main character sneezes in the wrong direction, and sociopathic tendencies. But although I can definitely tell that there is something up with most everyone in these few weeks, their hangups are very...normal?

Ling Qi's insecurity shines most obviously in her interaction with Han Jian. When Yu berates her and generally treats her like shit, it seems that what really troubles Qi is Jian's reaction, as if he can't quite bring himself to disagree with Yu. This sets up what is probably one of the most realistic interactions, bitterly so, in the quest so far- Qi confronting Jian over feeling like he's treating her like a charity case or that there's some kind of catch. It is really nice that despite her determination, despite her ambition and her drive to be a cultivator, Qi still has these very human and basic worries that you don't see in most quests or fiction on SV. Everyone is wary of each other, everyone is at arm's length. It's not tense, not quite, but it's a cold situation, where everyone knows that their peers are their competitors. Qi feels most safest and most comfortable, most able to not worry about the motives of the person she's interacting with, only when she is with Meizhen. But I have a feeling that Meizhen has her own reasons to host Qi, given that we are increasingly learning her serpentine past and just how powerful she is compared to Qi. Or she's just a lonely girl who likes company and Qi is the kind of person who can give it without much judgment or concerns about reputation (The Bai appear to inspire deep fear in the other students, such Suyin).

Suyin just makes me feel bad. I suspect from her notes that she is more insightful and sharp than she lets on, but like Qi she suffers from insecurity and anxiety not helped by their academic environment. I'm going to guess that Jian is being genuinely nice, but that Qi was also something of a "do-good" thing for him. He clearly doesn't lack for friends. Then again, Qi is a pretty pleasant person to be around when she tries, and her nervousness is probably a better quality than the false politeness many of the noble cultivator students have. She ought to stop being so hard on herself!

I mentioned I wasn't really sure about cultivation before and these few chapters give us some basic background on it. It's exposition, of course, but at least it's doled out in a way that makes sense. Like a lesson plan, as the character progresses and learns, we do, but never about anything that we don't need to. I suspect that an enormous amount of background planning went into this, because Yrs is careful to keep his cards just close enough to his chest to suggest more without dumping information on you. There are many different kinds of cultivation, but we don't need to know much about them. The thing about meridians is pretty cool, though I assume that it's at least partly drawn from common Xianxia tropes of how cultivation works. I also like the basic acknowledgement and sense of the system in the empire, that cultivators basically form a wall against superhuman invaders from the outside, and if that wall is breached, the interior does not get off easy. It's a detail that adds some grounding to a world where so much is fantastical and where apparently foxes and snakes sometimes can't help themselves.

Also funny to see the way that pills and stones are used- as a supply that all students have or wish to attain, and which it is better to have more of, but which is barred behind moral and academic gates (stealing from other students, being the best in the class). This seems like a sharp contrast from the stories of manic pillpopping I have heard from other Xianxia.

So far, I'm not really sure where things will go! There is a lot of setup taking place, there's basic boundaries and limits laying ahead of us. I suppose I'll note two things before I finish off this part of the review.

The first is that it is very obvious that this is a quest. I don't mean this in a bad way, but that Yrs has focused, especially as the weeks move on, to have people manage the various aspects of Qi's growth, choosing her powers, and so on. And it is very obvious that Yrs has put a lot of work into this. I'm not sure how much he had planned when he started, but as with setting details it's obvious that he is not making these mechanics up as he goes. For all the complaints I hear later on about how there's number bloat and things get confusing as hell, which is fair, I do have to appreciate how he has made it possible for both number crunchers and narrative lovers to enjoy the quest in equal measure.

The second is that I have a feeling that the speech of Elder Su about the dangers of unrestrained lust for power is not really just a speech in universe- it's a loud and clear announcement by Yrs that this is a story that will cleave to certain themes of the genre, but it sure as hell isn't going to rip its heart out in the process. A common critique of Xianxia from the outside is that it's all the same- that in the end all the differing story beats and starts become irrelevant in the race to reach the pinnacle of heaven. And you can see that strain here- how students struggle to form friendships and build trust with people who they, in the back of their mind, know they may end up fighting. But despite that, there are ways to the top that do not involve sociopathic madness. Perhaps the best contribution so far of Forge of Destiny is imagining a world of these immortals, of these students racing to be immortals, but letting them still be students, still teenagers who fluster when they see enormously buff teachers and struggle with their own human fears as they strive for immortal ambition.

Now let's see how many such dreams Zhou's tests will crush :3
 
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In short, both sides would be better served by acknowledging the situation should rightfully be considered an Old Shame by both sides due to both sides not using their brains and letting the matter drop. particularly since it's been 300 years now.

Kind of hard since this is not just ONLY about the clusterfuck that occurred 300 years ago anymore, as during these 300 years a lot happened to constantly reinforce this animosity, with Meizhen's mom more or less unceremoniously executed as an indirect consequence of Sun Shao's stunt being one of more recent examples that we know of.

And all of this is further complicated by the Cultivators' long lives, memories and grudges.
 
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To be honest, I think, and I hope that most of the hate directed in the direction of the Sun is absolutely standard xianxia style protagonist centred morality.

It's actually one of the most authentic things to the genre that there is here, the bending over backwards to vilify the Sun and glorify the Bai, Particularly and it's so blatantly obvious that if the early choice of frienfns had been reveresed the same people would be propagandising in the same fashion in reverse.

Really, for the most narrative value, the Sun should be generally in the right and the Bai should be wrong but have some plausible deniability to cling to. There's little tension/significance in sticking up for your friends when they're right. It's when you know they're mostly wrong and back them anyway that character really shines through.
 
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Really, for the most narrative value, the Sun should be generally in the right and the Bai should be wrong but have some plausible deniability to cling to.
Narrative, sure, but when viewed from the perspective of societal norms, the Sun are in the wrong. Even in the narrative one can spin it as "revenge is never worth it in the end", "he who hunts monsters must be mindful not to become one himself", or "stare too long into the abyss and the abyss stares back."

I think you're focusing too much on certain parts.
 
To be honest, I think, and I hope that most of the hate directed in the direction of the Sun is absolutely standard xianxia style protagonist centred morality.
I'll be real and say I love to hate on Sun Liling not because I think she's actually really in the wrong (because she's working for what she wants and I respect that), but mostly because I enjoy being a thorn in someone's side and I'm gleefully exploiting every petty bit I can.

Honestly, I think it's pretty clear that Ling Qi is pretty self-centered, and that biases her opinions, but I'm also enjoying being bitchy to someone who would have been prime material for a typical friendship in another quest/work, and almost was.

Edit: A lottttt of my feelings are schadenfreuden in terms of fiction, just gotta say lmao

Narrative, sure, but when viewed from the perspective of societal norms, the Sun are in the wrong. Even in the narrative one can spin it as "revenge is never worth it in the end", "he who hunts monsters must be mindful not to become one himself", or "stare too long into the abyss and the abyss stares back."

I think you're focusing too much on certain parts.
This too.
 
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Narrative, sure, but when viewed from the perspective of societal norms, the Sun are in the wrong. Even in the narrative one can spin it as "revenge is never worth it in the end", "he who hunts monsters must be mindful not to become one himself", or "stare too long into the abyss and the abyss stares back."

I think you're focusing too much on certain parts.
"Oh yeah I took out the Temple Cities of the barbarians, but in the process lost most of my 500,000 strong army of Cultivator Troops and by uprooting all the nobility in the region also indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent lives to satisfy my lust for revenge.

No big loss."

Being disgusted by such a cavalier attitude to the loss of life on such a scale for the sake of a personal grudge isn't protagonist centered morality.

It's human life centered morality.
 
To be honest, I think, and I hope that most of the hate directed in the direction of the Sun is absolutely standard xianxia style protagonist centred morality.

It's actually one of the most authentic things to the genre that there is here, the bending over backwards to vilify the Sun and glorify the Bai, Particularly and it's so blatantly obvious that if the early choice of frienfns had been reveresed the same people would be propagandising in the same fashion in reverse.

Really, for the most narrative value, the Sun should be generally in the right and the Bai should be wrong but have some plausible deniability to cling to. There's little tension/significance in sticking up for your friends when they're right. It's when you know they're mostly wrong and back them anyway that character really shines through.

Well, unless the early choices rewrites the characters and changes things up bit, Sun Liling will still be of the "Might Makes Right" mindset and act on it, attracting the unpleasant company that share that belief, leading to a lot of"Liling NO!" "Liling YES!" moments, along with "Why are we hanging out with these assholes again?" for her followers.
 
Really, for the most narrative value, the Sun should be generally in the right and the Bai should be wrong but have some plausible deniability to cling to.

The Suns are in the right. They took imperial troops, conquered new imperial land and Sun Shao was made king for it.

The Bai 1) tried to hinder imperial victory 2) tried to murder someone that got the a okay from the emperor and 3) fucked up so bad at handling their vassals they prefered to go in the murder jungle rather than keep being under the Bai.

You need to squint a lot to see the Bai as the good guys here.
 
Well int he interests of presenting the other PoV, the Sun and their supporters retort to what is being said would be that even if the mass mobilization did lead to some losses among the mortal populations, removing the western barbs saves far more mortal lives in the long run and is far less than those who have already lost their lives over time, since those worthless cowardly Bai allowed them to run rampant for twenty+ millenia.

Plus, they would point out, it was only fear of Bai reprisal for their righteous war that forced them to completely abandon their protectorates and lead to the mortals dying in the first place.

Folks are greatly underestimating how disliked the Bai were by their own vassals and the sheer incandescent hatred the western barbs inspired
 
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Well int he interests of presenting the other PoV, the Sun and their supporters retort to what is being said would be that even if the mass mobilization did lead to some losses among the mortal populations, removing the western barbs saves far more mortal lives in the long run and is far less than those who have already lost their lives over time, since those worthless cowardly Bai allowed them to run rampant for twenty+ millenia.

Plus, they would point out, it was only fear of Bai reprisal for their righteous war that forced them to completely abandon their protectorates and lead to the mortals dying in the first place.

Folks are greatly underestimating how disliked the Bai were by their own vassals.

Yikes.

Hated enough that people were willing to openly throw the cultural Primary Duty of any Cultivator in the dirt and claim it was the other guy's fault.

Then again, the Bai Clan is a bunch of Darth Vaders--even to their own detriment, so it's not really a surprise.
 
Plus, they would point out, it was only fear of Bai reprisal for their righteous war that forced them to completely abandon their protectorates and lead to the mortals dying in the first place.
Really weird when we know that they gave up on their holdings before the Bai went mad after them for essentially rising in rebellion.

And 'some losses among mortal population' run into the wall that A-those losses might count in the millions, B-The Jungle is still sending gribblies into the Thousand Lakes even after all the culls from the Sun's vassals, and with the loss of manpower those few attacks are probably far more deadly than they should be.
 
Really weird when we know that they gave up on their holdings before the Bai went mad after them for essentially rising in rebellion.

And 'some losses among mortal population' run into the wall that A-those losses might count in the millions, B-The Jungle is still sending gribblies into the Thousand Lakes even after all the culls from the Sun's vassals, and with the loss of manpower those few attacks are probably far more deadly than they should be.

"Yeah, but they're not our guys anymore."

Frankly, this makes a depressing amount of human sense. It has to be all the Bai's fault for being shitty rulers, because if it was their fault, then they were responsible for one of the greatest mass die-offs in the Empire's history.

But if it's the Bai's fault, then it's just another reason to grind them into the dust, it becomes a moral imperative to destroy them, rather than just self interest.

It's a distressingly human reaction, not helped by the fact the Bai are--by nature--prone to massive retaliation when provoked, so that they help fuel the impression that the snakes are a bunch of monsters in human skin.
 
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Really weird when we know that they gave up on their holdings before the Bai went mad after them for essentially rising in rebellion.

And 'some losses among mortal population' run into the wall that A-those losses might count in the millions, B-The Jungle is still sending gribblies into the Thousand Lakes even after all the culls from the Sun's vassals, and with the loss of manpower those few attacks are probably far more deadly than they should be.
The reaction the Bai were going to have to their orders being disobeyed was kind of taken as a given.

In any case, I'm just laying out the thought processes involved. Occasional jungle gribblies are also a hell of a lot less lethal than organized jungle slaughter squads.
 
@yrsillar bit of a random question, but between knowing how deadly the murder jungle and sun-death radioactive deserts is, I have been wondering what provinces is seen as more "safe" to live in.
 
The reaction the Bai were going to have to their orders being disobeyed was kind of taken as a given.

In any case, I'm just laying out the thought processes involved. Occasional jungle gribblies are also a hell of a lot less lethal than organized jungle slaughter squads.
It is interesting how disliked the Bai must have been to the rest of the provinces and the Imperial house though, for the Imperial House to have no problem backing "Sending a punitive force against the barbarians is worth millions of mortals dying", especially on the wake of Ogodei.

Obviously the Imperial house sold it as "The Sun prevented future massacres like Ogodei's and it is the Bai's fault for not protecting their own province", but considering Sun Shao did more damage to the Thousand Lakes than Ogodei did to Emerald Sea by far, the Bai must really have been hated by most of the empire for this to work at all. That, or people were willing to pretend to agree because they were wary of An.

Which would explain how ready the Xuan and Zheng are to back the Bai now.
 
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Celestial Peaks is pretty well tamed. So is Ebon Rivers, outside the highest and lowest points. Alabaster Sands is doing pretty well in that regard too.

By the way, from how you've described it all...

Thousand Lakes: Marshland
Alabaster Sands: Beach and Coastlines
Savage Seas: Archipelagos and Islands
Celestial Peaks: Not!Himalayas
Ebon Rivers: Highlands?
Golden Fields: Initially Grassland, currently desert
Emerald Seas: Forests

And then from the Barbarian Provinces.

Garden of the Red Sun: Jungle
Beyond the Wall: Steppes Taiga/Tundra
Grave of the Sun: Irradiated Ash Wastes

Is that about right, environmentally speaking?
 
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