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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Deathbybunnies said:
When investigating Ki Stealth, we got told that barring a major sea change in the way Kakara understands ki, it's pretty much impossible, and that if we want to achieve this we'd be better off making less PL hit harder (Overdrive, Refinement) instead of hiding a larger PL.
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Depending on how much energy you seal away, Gilded also reduces your energy profile by how much energy you internalize

So if you seal away 50% excess energy, your energy profile also drops around that level
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I assume Gilded is an RP thing, but I'm afraid I have no idea how it works.
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So basically, the way Gilded works starts by noticing that the fancy golden aura of Super Saiyan is, in fact, waste energy the body just doesn't process for whatever reason when transformed. You then focus on figuring out how to actually get use out of it, which is accomplished by drawing all that waste energy back within your body(which causes the skin to take on a slight shine and the hair to glow and go super metallic looking) and cycling it through your body in a steady rhythm. Depending on how much of the waste energy is sealed away, your strength can go up a lot, peaking to almost not-quite SSJ2 levels of physical strength.

Yeah, physical strength. Because by containing that energy within your body, it becomes much more difficult to fire blasts and do external Ki manipulation, and what blasts you do make are weakened by how much of the waste energy you've got locked up and are focusing on cycling through your body. Admittedly, you can just stop cycling the energy, but if you don't get that energy out of your body(usually by fuckhuge blast that's fueled by all that contained energy) it starts causing internal issues due to there now being more energy contained within it than the body can normally handle.

it's very much a "Commit to Beating Up Other Person Physically" technique. It makes you Really Strong in H2H, but unless you stop the technique your ranged game suffers.
 
I wonder how that would interact with psionics?
EDIT: Oh, and that sounds amazing for a Goku Stylist. We should figure this out posthaste. Any idea when Poptart is going to let us discover it?
 
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HoratioVonBecker said:
Has anyone tried going Golden Oozaru Grade 3? I'm pretty sure that's SS4, or at least close to it.
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there was a mention of it being a likely path to ssj4, but no definitive proof of it yet. if we ever achieve ssj3 we're likely to try it anyway. We ARE the one who discovered the golden oozaru after all.

Also I've not yet given up to that "try to access oozaru strenght in base form, or base strenght while in oozaru", though it's significantly down on my list of things to try at the moment.

Deathbybunnies said:
I actually don't think we could.

When investigating Ki Stealth, we got told that barring a major sea change in the way Kakara understands ki, it's pretty much impossible, and that if we want to achieve this we'd be better off making less PL hit harder (Overdrive, Refinement) instead of hiding a larger PL.
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To be fair, Elite Talents ARE usually "major sea changes in the way Kakara understands ki"

Machine sense is supposed to be impossible. All is one seems related to the epyphany needed for the genkidama that all life is connected, and so there's no reason why we couldn't use ki that is "other" ourselves. Perfect Multiform is basically creating ki from nothing by creating copies with our full strenght. Ki Refinement and Ki Overdrive are likely elite talents as well for their creators.

Admittedly a wish is likely the easier way to get something like ki stealth and kai kai, but I think they're reasonable evolutions for elite (or legendary) talents.
Deathbybunnies said:
I assume Gilded is an RP thing, but I'm afraid I have no idea how it works.
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I actually mentioned it in that transformation/PL explained post, by the way.


HoratioVonBecker said:
I wonder how that would interact with psionics?
EDIT: Oh, and that sounds amazing for a Goku Stylist. We should figure this out posthaste. Any idea when Poptart is going to let us discover it?
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Honestly? I don't think we will discover it at all. It's more the kind of thing JAFFUR would discover instead, as it seems like something that he could find out by experimenting with ki refinement and the limit of the ssj transformation.

I'd actually be very happy to see Jaffur discover it, it's a perfect trick for him.

The revelation that it also reduced the strenght of our ki signature is really nice too. In terms of raw power it's going to stay behind ssj2 (at least until FPSSJ2 is achieved, at which point it might become possible to apply it to it), but it would be easier to keep up for long periods, while ssj2 (and ssj3 after that) are hell on one's stamina.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I assume Gilded is an RP thing, but I'm afraid I have no idea how it works.
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Mona based it on a technique Krillin used in Dragon Ball: Super, and it has become Mona's favorite thing ever. :rofl: As such, it is a very advanced technique, and it'll take some doing to stumble onto it...especially since Ki Refinement follows much the same logic, given that the two are largely examples of convergent evolution. They're largely redundant with one another, and with one to occupy that mental space, it is unlikely that anybody of the Exile tradition will think of Gilded when Refinement is available.

Sort of an RP spoiler, I suppose, but originally derived from Super. Keep it in the boxes for now, to be safe.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Mona based it on a technique Krillin used in Dragon Ball: Super, and it has become Mona's favorite thing ever. :rofl: As such, it is a very advanced technique, and it'll take some doing to stumble onto it...especially since Ki Refinement follows much the same logic, given that the two are largely examples of convergent evolution. They're largely redundant with one another, and with one to occupy that mental space, it is unlikely that anybody of the Exile tradition will think of Gilded when Refinement is available.

Sort of an RP spoiler, I suppose, but originally derived from Super. Keep it in the boxes for now, to be safe.
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Isn't it possible to refine/compress the ki inside the body? If you can only do it to "external" ki, than it makes sense that Gilded wouldn't be that compatible, as it's all about keeping your ki "in". And yet there's ki inside the body too. Wouldn't it possible to use ki refinement to compress the ki kept inside the body by Gilded then? get an even higher boost to physical stats?)
 
Pittauro said:
Isn't it possible to refine/compress the ki inside the body? If you can only do it to "external" ki, than it makes sense that Gilded wouldn't be that compatible, as it's all about keeping your ki "in". And yet there's ki inside the body too. Wouldn't it possible to use ki refinement to compress the ki kept inside the body by Gilded then? get an even higher boost to physical stats?)
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Oh, it absolutely is conceptually possible, my point is that nobody who knows of one is likely to think of the other.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Oh, it absolutely is conceptually possible, my point is that nobody who knows of one is likely to think of the other.
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But isn't it just a matter of transferring the conceptual compression to physical compression? Like Mato's "did he just have a big Kamehameha going the whole time"? It seems like the sort of thing the reverse-engineering research might turn up on accident, is what I'm saying.
(I mean, it's not like regular people don't have auras, or the ability to draw them back in...)
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
But isn't it just a matter of transferring the conceptual compression to physical compression? Like Mato's "did he just have a big Kamehameha going the whole time"? It seems like the sort of thing the reverse-engineering research might turn up on accident, is what I'm saying.
(I mean, it's not like regular people don't have auras, or the ability to draw them back in...)
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to be fair there aren't that many ssj to try and reverse-engineer this. If we ever relax the restrictions on ssj then maybe someone might discover this by accident or on purpose. And for not ssj the gain would likely be much lower
 
I think we have ample reason to explore the connection between Refinement, Overcharge, and our understanding of ki in general. This might come up incidentally to that, especially since it's apparently based on a thing from Super.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
I think we have ample reason to explore the connection between Refinement, Overcharge, and our understanding of ki in general. This might come up incidentally to that, especially since it's apparently based on a thing from Super.
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mh.. Kakara's main passion has always been ki, not as a mean to an end but as the end itself.

It would make sense for her to try and learn all this methods (ki refinement, ki overcharge, life-energy manipulation, studying the effects of the masques on her ki, all is one/spirit saiyan, understanding the process through which perfect multiform basically creates ki from nothing) and see if she can extract some interesting insight from all the data. Her unique approach and mentality could certainly lead to new conclusions.

I'd add kaioken to the list if not for the fact that, all things considered, the kaioken is conceptually very simple: you're overclocking your body, forcing it to produce more ki than it should at the cost of stamina and self-damage. and an overclock is by definition always a bit dangerous, and likely one of the hardest things to combine with anything else, especially considering that it's explicitely unsuited to the ssj forms. That one I'll gladly leave to Berra and Jaffur.
 
Pittauro said:
I'd add kaioken to the list if not for the fact that, all things considered, the kaioken is conceptually very simple: you're overclocking your body, forcing it to produce more ki than it should at the cost of stamina and self-damage. and an overclock is by definition always a bit dangerous, and likely one of the hardest things to combine with anything else, especially considering that it's explicitely unsuited to the ssj forms. That one I'll gladly leave to Berra and Jaffur.
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Ah, but what about a self-healing technique? If there's a way to combine Kaio-Ken with ki-based regeneration or something, the effective boost could be the sum of the two. And healing is something Kakara does have a bonus with...
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
Ah, but what about a self-healing technique? If there's a way to combine Kaio-Ken with ki-based regeneration or something, the effective boost could be the sum of the two. And healing is something Kakara does have a bonus with...
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we never tried to actually LEARN ki healing though, and self-healing sounds like a possible elite talent for the ki healing skill. We'd need a teacher to start with though, and with the namekian having access to healing magic AND some level of regeneration I doubt they ever had the need to learn it.
 
Pittauro said:
we never tried to actually LEARN ki healing though, and self-healing sounds like a possible elite talent for the ki healing skill. We'd need a teacher to start with though, and with the namekian having access to healing magic AND some level of regeneration I doubt they ever had the need to learn it.
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On the other hand, studying their regeneration might be really helpful for mimicing it. Also, if anyone would've picked it up anyway, it'd be the scouts.
 
Oh yeah, build vote fatigue makes a lot of sense. I just don't have the time to do an archive-delve and thus have other stuff to speculate about, and I've already voted.
 
Moving on from specific goals, I've kind of wanted to spend an action on taking a look at what ki actually is on a fundamental level for a while now. Both because it'd be much easier to come up with concepts for techniques if we weren't effectively theorising blindly, and because I'm interested in it in and of itself. Poptart's indicated that they have a model of ki they're working with already, so I don't think this would be a case of "don't look behind the curtain."

It seems like something that would be much easier/have greater effect when we're back on Garenhuld though, with access to scholars and records, so I've never brought it up.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Moving on from specific goals, I've kind of wanted to spend an action on taking a look at what ki actually is on a fundamental level for a while now. Both because it'd be much easier to come up with concepts for techniques if we weren't effectively theorising blindly, and because I'm interested in it in and of itself. Poptart's indicated that they have a model of ki they're working with already, so I don't think this would be a case of "don't look behind the curtain."

It seems like something that would be much easier/have greater effect when we're back on Garenhuld though, with access to scholars and records, so I've never brought it up.
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On the other hand, it could be done decently on Namek, and excellently in Heaven.
 
Cariyaga said:
On the other hand, it could be done decently on Namek, and excellently in Heaven.
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In Heaven maybe. It depends on what the z-fighters did in the last few centuries. Most of them were more concerned with Ki as a martial artist's tool, not really in its philosophy/true nature.

Namek... I'm not sure, but I suppose one of their elders might have reached a superior understanding. It's worth a try.
 
Pittauro said:
In Heaven maybe. It depends on what the z-fighters did in the last few centuries. Most of them were more concerned with Ki as a martial artist's tool, not really in its philosophy/true nature.

Namek... I'm not sure, but I suppose one of their elders might have reached a superior understanding. It's worth a try.
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In heaven is every good person that died across all of history, yes? THAT many people and you expect there might not be anyone who was curious?
 
Cariyaga said:
In heaven is every good person that died across all of history, yes? THAT many people and you expect there might not be anyone who was curious?
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only heroes kept their bodies though. Can we even interact with disembodied souls?

Also technically not all of them. They CAN apparently choose to reincarnate, though very few do. It's usually only a thing done by people in hell.

Also heaven is BIG, and understanding of ki is VERY rare in this universe. Like, only Namekians, Earthlings and the people of Yardrat were really show to understand how to train/use ki effectively. This is a universe mostly ruled by the lucky ki mutants.
 
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All right, folks, the vote is closed!

Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End Sci-Fi | Page 1517 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 37916-37957]
##### NetTally 2.2.4

[X] Yes, spend the vision. You may avoid it coming to a fight at all with the proper information, and...you may be developing something of a complex about never engaging on incomplete information, but come on, who can blame you?
-[X] Focus on trying to find the decision points for the three outcomes you've Seen today.
No. of Votes: 11
[X] KnightDisciple
[X] Frvborg
[X] googlyeyesultra
[X] Jirachi47
[X] Mizu
[X] nkd1325
[X] pandadogunited
[X] Simon_Jester
[x] Terrabrand
[X] The Fourth Monado
[X] Wiadi

[X] No, do not spend the vision. All of this, if all goes to plan, comes down to a duel between you and the royal. You need to be at peak form for that, and that demands advantages.
No. of Votes: 10
[X] DarknessSmiles
[X] Aranfan
[X] buli-buli
[X] Chuck12
[X] Deathbybunnies
[X] Dermonster
[X] HoratioVonBecker
[X] Jefardi
[X] Pittauro
[X] QTesseract


Total No. of Voters: 21

Quite a contested vote, with the winning option scraping through by only a single vote, but nonetheless, with a bare majority, your winner is:

[X] Yes, spend the vision. You may avoid it coming to a fight at all with the proper information, and...you may be developing something of a complex about never engaging on incomplete information, but come on, who can blame you?
-[X] Focus on trying to find the decision points for the three outcomes you've Seen today.

Writing! If I keep my flow going, I should update tomorrow! In fact, pester me tomorrow, it might keep me focused. :D
 
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