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[X] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectly identical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.

Because if we can't leverage being an Oddball by playing with something infinite, I am playing the wrong quest.

I mean, all we have to do is apply an infinitely confusing mathematical principle to an understood and quantifiable physical reality in such a way that the physical reality takes on properties of the mental model of infinity, while existing as a mental construct within the mental construct of an alien slug. And we have a dragon to help!
 
[X] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectlyidentical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.
 
So now we're going to have Tabe's Ki Overdrive and Perfect Multiform for burning through ki at a rapid rate, once we're done. Perhaps our next project should be looking into a way to store more ki?
 
[X] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectlyidentical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.

All right, folks the vote is open.

I see.

Hm, while it is an interesting mathematical principle — and given how firmly convinced I generally am that I'll never have cause to say those words, that is indeed high praise — there are a couple things about how I'm modeling ki that mean I can't take it as a whole and distinct option. I will absolutely take it onboard as inspiration towards option one, though.
Thank you. I'd kind of anticipated that you wouldn't care to use it; there are a LOT of ways ki might work, and ways Kakara might interact with ki, that would preclude her from simply subviding her ki into multiple infinite subsets of infinitesimal fragments and then manipulating those subsets in the way described.

Even without knowing the details of your model, I'd figured you'd probably have at least ONE working assumption that would prevent the Banach-Tarski paradox from applying to it, just as it doesn't apply to real physical objects made out of atoms.

[] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectly identical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.

Because if we can't leverage being an Oddball by playing with something infinite, I am playing the wrong quest.

I mean, all we have to do is apply an infinitely confusing mathematical principle to an understood and quantifiable physical reality in such a way that the physical reality takes on properties of the mental model of infinity, while existing as a mental construct within the mental construct of an alien slug. And we have a dragon to help!
To be fair, the Banach-Tarski paradox is not infinitely confusing.

It is merely very confusing.
 
[X] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectlyidentical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.
 
True.

It's basically the Ship of Theseus, only no parts are replaced, and there is no ship.
Or rather, there is no need to replace any parts. Because the ship contains infinite parts, and the thing about having infinite parts is that one of them will always be a viable replacement part for whichever part you just threw overboard.

If your ship contains an infinite supply of all conceivable varieties of ship parts, it is a simple mathematical exercise to duplicate the ship out of onboard supplies. Even if the individual "ship parts" in question are tiny geometric point-"sized" infinitely small flecks of wood.

You could totally use the Banach-Tarski paradox to clone a ship, if a ship could be divided into a literally infinite number of pieces and if you could manipulate complicated infinitely numerous sets of those pieces in a reasonable amount of time.
 
[X] Try to feel out why multiform exactly divides your power. You are very good at using your ki efficiently, but there has got to be some energy lost in the process. So where does the rest of the power come from? Maybe you can use it to make clones with more extra power than just enough to deal with the inefficiencies of the process.
[X] Investigate making use of Life Force in Perfect Multiform, in the manner of the Kikoho and Shin Kikoho. By doing so, you might create a truly Perfect Multiform, with no loss of strength, ki or stamina... but like those techniques, you would likely be limited in how often it could be used in a single fight before it became unsafe.
[X] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectly identical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.
 
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[x] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectly identical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.
 
Because of the math surrounding infinite quantities being very foreign to what we are accustomed to imagining from finite quantities- even large ones.
Actually, it isn't. You've just been taught that infinities are all equal, when that's blatant nonsense.
All infinities are infinite, but that does not mean all infinities are equal. I know of two broad ways to distinguish them:
  1. By ratio. The set of (all positive even integers) is exactly half as large as the set of (all positive integers). (All positive integers evenly divisible by 3) is exactly one third as large as (all positive integers). (Every positive integer, and every positive integer-plus-a-half) is twice as large as (all positive integers). See?
  2. By infinitesimals. (Infinity plus one) times 26 is equal to (infinity plus 26), even though (infinity times 26) is just (infinity). This is how you can have infinite sets that contain each other, but are still greater together than they are apart - you simply count the markers you used to distinguish them.
(If anyone has questions about this, please ask.)
Fair enough. It's a shame we haven't come up with anything else - it really feels like there should be a way to game this system, but for the life of me I can't see it.
Well, making it too powerful would be boring - I don't really want a tonally-incongruous "Kakara then became an exponential self-replicator" from this particular project. Let's see what resource limits we'd be most willing to have.
  • Meta-level: The clones must have a cap on their force projection. Currently, force (in the form of power level) is split directly from our normal cap, in real time. Other options:
    • Chargetime. We pay for the clones when their aid isn't urgent.
      • Buildup. Example: We charge for five minutes, then we get five clones for one minute.
      • Cooldown. Example: We use a clone for one minute, then we spend two hours at half strength. (I think this is Option One.)
    • Induction. We pay for the clones with outside resources.
      • Genki Dama hack, anyone?
    • Skill. We make a new cap we can raise by training.
      • We get X clones for Y amount of time. These clones are full duplicates of us, but we can't keep them going for long. (I believe this is Option Two.)
    • Redefinition. We trade some of the clones' benefits for others.
      • Mind-only splitting. We should be really good at this!
      • Four Witches Style.
      • Extra eyes and ears.
      • Whole armies of very weak clones, for searching/manufacturing/training/whatever else.
Of these, I really want to look into Buildup, Induction, and Mind-only splitting. The last, in particular, seems most relevant to our situation as a shade.
 
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All infinities are infinite, but that does not mean all infinities are equal. I know of two broad ways to distinguish them:
  1. By ratio. The set of (all positive even integers) is exactly half as large as the set of (all positive integers). (All positive integers evenly divisible by 3) is exactly one third as large as (all positive integers). (Every positive integer, and every positive integer-plus-a-half) is twice as large as (all positive integers). See?
  2. By infinitesimals. (Infinity plus one) times 26 is equal to (infinity plus 26), even though (infinity times 26) is just (infinity). This is how you can have infinite sets that contain each other, but are still greater together than they are apart - you simply count the markers you used to distinguish them.
(If anyone has questions about this, please ask.)

I have a relevant degree here, and you are wrong about both your examples.

Straight up, "all even natural numbers" is the same size as "All natural numbers" is the same size as "all rational numbers".

a set is the same size as another set if it can be put into a one to one correspondence, basically if you can list each set by the others with no entries blank or missing on either list.

1. 2
2. 4
3. 6
.
.
.

etc
 
All countable infinities are the same cardinality. You can pair every even number with every odd multiple of 3, despite the fact that within any given range of values there are more even numbers.
Infinities are described as different from finite sets because they are.

E: Aranfan beat me to this.
 
I have a relevant degree here, and you are wrong about both your examples.
I had four examples of two principles. Please clarify?
A set is the same size as another set if it can be put into a one to one correspondence, basically if you can list each set by the others with no entries blank or missing on either list.
But if you follow that axiom when comparing infinities, you wind up discarding the ability to compare them proportionally. Why would you do that?
Yeah, pursuant to what Aranfan just said, my question is: can I get a source on those claims?
No. Demanding an authoritative source is the evil twin of arguing from authority.
 
No. Demanding an authoritative source is the evil twin of arguing from authority.
I'm not sure where to start with this, there's so much wrong with it. I think I'll have to go with:

1. Appeal to authority isn't fallacious when the authority is a relevant one. It's generally less strong evidence than "showing your work," but that's not the same thing as it being a bad way to deal with low research false statements.
2. "Backing your points up" in an argument isn't really optional, especially if you want to convince people but really just in general.
3. Your entire argument rests on your supposed authority as "someone who wasn't taught blatant nonsense," because the evidence you use alongside it is barely extant and also wrong.
 
[X] Try to eliminate the splitting at the source: Multiform is the theoretical exercise of ki to split your physical form into separate copies, and it isn't like ki is incapable of acting on itself. Work to see if you can use your ki to create a perfectly identical copy with its own ki reserve. That seems like the kind of uncompromising approach Cell would've taken. This seems like it would be more expensive on ki to create, though.
 
Actually, it isn't. You've just been taught that infinities are all equal, when that's blatant nonsense.
All infinities are infinite, but that does not mean all infinities are equal. I know of two broad ways to distinguish them:
  1. By ratio. The set of (all positive even integers) is exactly half as large as the set of (all positive integers). (All positive integers evenly divisible by 3) is exactly one third as large as (all positive integers). (Every positive integer, and every positive integer-plus-a-half) is twice as large as (all positive integers). See?
  2. By infinitesimals. (Infinity plus one) times 26 is equal to (infinity plus 26), even though (infinity times 26) is just (infinity). This is how you can have infinite sets that contain each other, but are still greater together than they are apart - you simply count the markers you used to distinguish them.
(If anyone has questions about this, please ask.)

Well, making it too powerful would be boring - I don't really want a tonally-incongruous "Kakara then became an exponential self-replicator" from this particular project. Let's see what resource limits we'd be most willing to have.
  • Meta-level: The clones must have a cap on their force projection. Currently, force (in the form of power level) is split directly from our normal cap, in real time. Other options:
    • Chargetime. We pay for the clones when their aid isn't urgent.
      • Buildup. Example: We charge for five minutes, then we get five clones for one minute.
      • Cooldown. Example: We use a clone for one minute, then we spend two hours at half strength. (I think this is Option One.)
    • Induction. We pay for the clones with outside resources.
      • Genki Dama hack, anyone?
    • Skill. We make a new cap we can raise by training.
      • We get X clones for Y amount of time. These clones are full duplicates of us, but we can't keep them going for long. (I believe this is Option Two.)
    • Redefinition. We trade some of the clones' benefits for others.
      • Mind-only splitting. We should be really good at this!
      • Four Witches Style.
      • Extra eyes and ears.
      • Whole armies of very weak clones, for searching/manufacturing/training/whatever else.
Of these, I really want to look into Buildup, Induction, and Mind-only splitting. The last, in particular, seems most relevant to our situation as a shade.
There are countable infinities and uncountable infinities - The set of all integers is countable, even if you'd never finish, because you can go 1, 2, 3 etc. Uncountable infinities are like the set of numbers between 1 and 2 - after 1, where do you start? 0.001 is wrong because 0.0001 exists, which is wrong because 0.00001 exists, and so on - you can't even try to count them.

As for your alternative PM ideas:
Chargetime is probably not great to be honest, since the first means we can't use it on short notice and the second is strictly worse than option 1, which halves our ki reserves (as in, stamina) but not our strength.
Induction would be great, but our surroundings won't have enough energy to fuel half of an FPSSJ.
I don't really understand skill, I think this is Poptart's purview as QM?
Mind-only splitting is pretty much pointless - we have as much thinking time as we want, and if really need it we can just use regular multiform.
The Four Witches Technique is an entirely separate, regular technique under Tenshinhan Style.
Extra eyes and ears also seems pointless.
+1 to clones number an Elite Talent.

No. Demanding an authoritative source is the evil twin of arguing from authority.
It's really not - you're the one making the claim, so demanding a source for an apparently outrageous claim is perfectly reasonable.
 
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I had four examples of two principles. Please clarify?
Aranfan just disproved all four of your examples, so it's kind of a moot point.

In any case, you have asserted that the set of all positive even integers is exactly half as large as the set of all positive integers. But as Aranfan pointed out, for every positive integer, there is a corresponding positive even integer. Namely, two times the original integer.

You cannot point to a single integer and say "this is an integer that does not come with a corresponding even integer." Because every integer can be doubled to create a corresponding even integer.

Therefore, the set of positive even integers must be as large as the set of all positive integers. If it weren't, it would be impossible to assign one positive even integer to every positive integer.

If we can hand every child in a group a lollipop, and no child is left without a lollipop, logically there must be as many lollipops as children. We can hand every positive integer a positive even integer, and there is no positive integer that doesn't get its own positive even integer.

Q. E. D.

A similar argument applies to your other examples under (1).

The case of "positive integers divisible by 3" is trivially obvious and I will not go into detail.

And just as every integer can be assigned a corresponding even integer by doubling it, every half-integer (numbers of the form N+0.5 where N is an integer) can be assigned a corresponding odd integer by doubling it, and so the set of all integers plus all half-integers cannot be larger than the set of all integers.

...

(Infinity plus one) times 26 is equal to (infinity plus 26), even though (infinity times 26) is just (infinity). This is how you can have infinite sets that contain each other, but are still greater together than they are apart - you simply count the markers you used to distinguish them.
Notably, your first sentence concedes that your claim that infinities can be compared by ratios is erroneous: you say "even though infinity*26 is just infinity."

But aside from that, there is a separate error on your part in this new claim; namely that you are trying to apply arithmetic and the distributive property to infinite quantities when, as noted, that doesn't work.

In high school math, 26*(X+1) = 26X + 26. But that is based on the assumption that X is a finite number on which the arithmetic operations "add, subtract, multiply, divide," and so on can be performed.

If you add one object to an infinite set, you have an infinite set. If you then multiply the infinite set 26-fold you have an infinite set, regardless of whether you previously added one object to it or not. There is no "infinity plus one" size, and no "twenty-six times infinity" size. Infinity is not a number. it is a concept.

What you're doing is like arguing that 4*[(2/0)+1] equals four, or for that matter [(8/0)+4]. It's simply not the case, because these are not quantities that are capable of being calculated by conventional arithmetic.

But if you follow that axiom when comparing infinities, you wind up discarding the ability to compare them proportionally. Why would you do that?
Because the belief that you can compare infinite sets proportionally is a delusion created by treating infinite sets as if they were finite sets. It is factually incorrect, and I can prove it, and have already done so, as has @Aranfan .

Therefore, whether it would be useful or not to be able to compare infinite sets proportionally, one cannot do so.

No. Demanding an authoritative source is the evil twin of arguing from authority.
The problem is, Horatio, your argument fails on its own merits.

If you backed up your argument with an authoritative source (e.g. someone with a degree in higher math), it would provide us with reason to think that someone who does in fact understand set theory and higher mathematics can help compose the argument, which would give us less reason to dismiss this out of hand, the way we would casually dismiss someone who maintains that rockets fly by pushing against the air and can't possibly work in space.
 
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because not doing that leads to absurdity and contradiction in other areas.
Specifically and most obviously, it requires us to abandon the axiom "if you have enough lollipops to give every child a lollipop, then clearly you must have AT LEAST as many lollipops on your hands as you do children."

(EDIT: words 'at least' edited in due to my absent-mindedly leaving them out)
 
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Specifically and most obviously, it requires us to abandon the axiom "if you have enough lollipops to give every child a lollipop, then clearly you must have as many lollipops on your hands as you do children."

I mean, you're missing a phrase, "and enough children to give every lolipop a child" should be in there somewhere.

Edit: But you also get into strangeness with infinite series. Like:

? = 1+1-1+1-1...

If you allow bracketing however you want you get a ton of different results depending on how you bracket.
 
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2. "Backing your points up" in an argument isn't really optional, especially if you want to convince people but really just in general.
True. Let my try to rephrase, now that I've cleared my head.
Therefore, the set of positive even integers must be as large as the set of all positive integers. If it weren't, it would be impossible to assign one positive even integer to every positive integer.
(Bolding mine.)
Nope! Because they're both infinite. That's what's different about infinities.
Specifically and most obviously, it requires us to abandon the axiom "if you have enough lollipops to give every child a lollipop, then clearly you must have AT LEAST as many lollipops on your hands as you do children."
That's a much less absurd axiom to give up than "things can be added, subtracted, multiplied, and divided". For one thing, it's only one axiom, whereas arithmetic functions need at least two.
Infinity is not a number. it is a concept.
Counterexample: (1111111111...) is quite clearly 1/3 as large as (3333333333...). Multiply (3333333333...) by 2 and you get (6666666666...). Divide that by 3, and you get (2222222222...). Add (3333333333...) to that, and you get (5555555555...). These are all infinities. Some are even in common use!

On a side note:
Uncountable infinities are like the set of numbers between 1 and 2 - after 1, where do you start? 0.001 is wrong because 0.0001 exists, which is wrong because 0.00001 exists, and so on - you can't even try to count them.
That one's not actually uncountable. (1/∞, 2/∞, 3/∞...) requires both infinite counting time and infinite infinitesimals to count with, but will get you from zero to one with no skips.
 
True. Let my try to rephrase, now that I've cleared my head.

(Bolding mine.)
Nope! Because they're both infinite. That's what's different about infinities.

That's a much less absurd axiom to give up than "things can be added, subtracted, multiplied, and divided". For one thing, it's only one axiom, whereas arithmetic functions need at least two.

Counterexample: (1111111111...) is quite clearly 1/3 as large as (3333333333...). Multiply (3333333333...) by 2 and you get (6666666666...). Divide that by 3, and you get (2222222222...). Add (3333333333...) to that, and you get (5555555555...). These are all infinities. Some are even in common use!

On a side note:
That one's not actually uncountable. (1/∞, 2/∞, 3/∞...) requires both infinite counting time and infinite infinitesimals to count with, but will get you from zero to one with no skips.
Them both being infinite doesn't come into it. All countable infinities have the same cardinality because you can pair every number of infinity a with a corresponding part of infinity B. This isn't true of infinities in general, just countable ones like the ones you listed, and it only works for them because they are the same size.

"The fact that numbers can be bigger than other numbers isn't important" is... certainly a hot take.

1/∞ is not a valid mathematical step. You can't divide by infinities.
 
True. Let my try to rephrase, now that I've cleared my head.

Counterexample: (1111111111...) is quite clearly 1/3 as large as (3333333333...). Multiply (3333333333...) by 2 and you get (6666666666...). Divide that by 3, and you get (2222222222...). Add (3333333333...) to that, and you get (5555555555...). These are all infinities. Some are even in common use!

[/spoiler]
Ignoring everything else for now, this supposed counterexample is nonsense. 2/3 is not an infinite set. The number of digits required to express it in Base- 10 is an infinite set, but it still just a single very finite number. In senary it is just expressed as 0.2. In fractions it is just expressed as 2/3.
 
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