Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
wh
why would that be the Enemy's power
what possible evidence do you have for that idea
Dragon Ball: After the End
wh
why would that be the Enemy's power
what possible evidence do you have for that idea
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Spitballing because I've no intention of spoiling myself with the other thing that may or may not be accurate anyway, and I'm trying to come up with things that could conceivably make him a threat to Zeno'o.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
I think he's probably closer to an Abyssal Exalt, really. Like "god of the theoretically-inevitable heat death of the universe" or something.
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- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Never understood that being a thing in a setting where emotional energy/faith could be used as a power source, since those things don't really comply with entropy. Ki fulfills that role here, as do the Kais, being able to make something from nothing. You'd expect something like that to be weaker since it's no more inevitable than it not happening according to the workings of Dragon Ball cosmology, unless he gains the power of people he perma-kills or something.
I keep coming back to that 'Sentient negative Spirit Bomb' theory I had a while back, but I don't know, it doesn't feel quite right, and if he'd been powering up on the combined negativity of the entire universe for centuries, then he'd basically be unstoppable at this point.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Even if it did exist, what relevance would it have? Kakara barely has enough non-Sight Psychic talent to scan/read minds. It's pretty clear she doesn't have another major gift like "can mimic literally any power ever", assuming that it's even possible for a Psionic gift to do that, or that Psionics even works that way.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
We don't know what gifts she has, actually. My current guess is that she has something like "all powers to do with Understanding".
(Which would suggest that Jaffur's specialty is something like "unstoppable if he knows what to do" - mainly because that seems really neat from a narrative standpoint.)
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Jaffur is extraordinarily unlikely to have any psychic gifts. We are psychic in the form of being a Seer, there is no evidence of non Seer psychics in the Exiles, and he is not a Seer.
Moreover, it seems extraordinarily strange to assume psychic Gifts will be individually to the tune of 'basically all purpose omnipotence', which describes both of your suggestions, and our expert, Dazarel, says the Sight rarely abides any other Gifts, so Kakara very possibly has none.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
You're misunderstanding. I think Kakara has the metaphysical trait of "able to sense and understand", which translates to Kanissian Sight, ki sensing, mindreading, and probably a lot of other stuff, only some of it psychic.
I think Jaffur has the metaphysical trait of "able to implement ideas he can comprehend", which translates to sorcery, technique engineering, training, and ludicrous combat skills. He'd probably be really good at Tinkering, too.
(We should look into Tinkering when we get the chance. Perhaps we could use Pastsight and multiform and speedreading to go through the books Bassoon dropped off with the Arcosians? Later, anyway.)
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- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
WHy do you think this?
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
I can't bring anything in particular to mind, aside from the fact that Kakara is a Seer with mindreading and both event-keys for Legendary Ki Sense.
And has been a Master-level ki sensor since she was tiny. And is amazing at learning the Sight.
You might say a theme has emerged.
(As for Jaffur, it's mostly contextual. He is our rival, after all.)
And has been a Master-level ki sensor since she was tiny. And is amazing at learning the Sight.
You might say a theme has emerged.
(As for Jaffur, it's mostly contextual. He is our rival, after all.)
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
You are assuming that Psychic gifts must, inherently, be broad and semi-universal, rather than narrow and highly specific, and that the Kanassan Sight is a very specific gift that just happens to be uniquely genetic (that is, being inheritable in a consistent way).
I would ask you what evidence you have for your claim?
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Actually, I'm not. I'm looking at this from an OOC perspective, and saying "given how this has been going, I predict that Kakara has pretty much any Psychic gift to do with sensing".
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Why do you believe that OOC?
What evidence do you, the player, OOC have that Psychic Gifts even work like that? That she can have "pretty much any Psychic Gift to do with sensing", instead of Sight, and only, specifically Kanassan Sight?
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Why? I asked you to unpack it earlier, but you didn't so I still don't understand. Is mind control actually an terminal value for you?
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I would argue that if temporary it is significantly more akin to knocking someone out. Death is rather fundamentally terminal.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
This is dragonball. That's not a very good argument when death is rather fundamentally reversible in the actual context being discussed, and, so far as we know, psychic power mind control is not possible in the real world.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay, granted that death is theoretically reversible, but doing so requires active effort and isn't always possible. So it's still a better analogy to an ongoing but breakable mind control effect (see: Dandeer's bullshit) rather than a one-off minor alteration.
- Location
- Academy City
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- They
Dragonball doesn't even have death, in the way that we do, except in the case of its absolute highest echelons (gods of destruction, Xeno, possibly the enemy, maybe super dragon balls). With that being said, though,
Seems like a strange reason to object to death? If I draw on someone's face while they're asleep, that is, in fact, treating them like an object withotu dignity, but while it's a jerk move it doesn't seem qualitatively or quantitatively similar to death or mind control. If this is meant in the sense of "denying them agency," we have telikinesis. And limbs*. Fundementally, most people already have essentially no agency where we're concerned, at least when it comes to stopping us; we can be persuaded, still, but we can be persuaded not to mind control.
Fundementally, the only reason this is OK is that Kakara uses this for good, and unlike in the abstract case, we both know with certainty why this is and what causes this to continue to be the case. Do you have reason to suspect that we would use these mind control powers to an extent that's bad enough that having it would be a net disservice to sophont flourishing?
*well, usually
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Only if we choose to so excersice that power. Which we tend not to unless they force the issue. We tend to focus on persuading rather than coercing. Mind control is violence, is violation. Instead of persuading them you change their mind with brute force.
Yes. The mindset Darazel said even last update was necessary to use mind control is one of elitist domination. It's the kind of power you need to believe you are fully in the right to use to use at all. That kind of domineering mindset is not conducive to restrained use of a power that needs to be carefully considered.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't see what's intrinsically elitist about using an ability only when you feel certain that its application in this situation and way is entirely justified. That seems like a good check to have on the power, honestly.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
And in this case, the person forcing the issue did so by attempting to sell us out for profit? I supect you wouldn't have had the same argument if we'd seen someone doing that on Garenhuld and told them to Knock it Off as Kakara Goku, even if in that situation our power over them is even more coercive. If this is a genuine principle that would extend there I'm significantly more sympathetic, but to my reccolection such data points from you are not in evidence so I'd want to see somethign there in the past or future.
Is that a fundementally worse-suited mindset for excercising power than the rage of the Super Saiyan? Or the primeval instincts Oozaru? Or the sheer overwhelmingness push of the Spirit Saiyan that we only managed to avoid via a nat 100? Or the super saiyan 2 many of us are pursuing in the future, or the super saiyan rage I have difficulty expecting you'd turn down if offered? Like, this isn't even an unnaturally strong emotion, nor a uniquely awful one either? As we saw this update where she didn't do anything horrible with it?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Don't get me started on my problems with hereditary nobility.
Only because she was physically incapable.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So to clarify, would you contend that in isolation (rather than in terms of representative trends in behavior etc.) Kakara's attempted mental alteration qualifies as "something horrible"? If yes, why? (again, bearing in mind that it represents a meaningfully smaller deprivation of agency than actual death would, what with its intrinsically temporary character even absent active efforts to contravene it)