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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Go for Dandeer's tail, using her as a flail to keep Berra at bay while Dandelor breaks the mind control.
 
Cariyaga said:
RIP Dandelor

e: I strongly suggest either targetting Dandeer's tail or her herself. Either one works. The former is more likely to work because oddball bonuses, but anything else leaves Berra free to rampage on our friendly sorceror.
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I don't think it does, though.

Berra has the following problems that'll prevent him from vaporizing Dandelor before we get to act:

1) He has to protect Dandeer, who we've just attacked twice. If we suddenly Instant Transmit, his first instinct will be to keep an eye on Dandeer, not to attack Dandelor, thus wasting his time.
2) He might futilely try to protect Vegeta rather than going for Dandelor.
3) He's much slower than we are.

Thus, I believe in the time it takes him to realize we're not attacking Dandeer, we will already have taken out Vegeta.

Now, if he then decides to try to attack Dandelor after we take out Vegeta, that's not actually too bad for us.

In that case, can just Instant Transit next to Dandelor, grab him and then Instant Transmit behind Dandeer and start swinging her around.


Edit:

Also, we have no expection that Berra will go for lethal damage. He's not been ordered to do so, and it's not really his default in any situation either, so even assuming he does manage to knock out Dandelor, the Senzus can heal him as well once we grab Dandeer and distract him.
 
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Remember, Exile magic works by conceptually blocking things. It achieves most results picking specific concepts or ideas and 'commenting them out' of the universe's code. Like, if you remember that scene during the tournament where we got our reputation as a budding strategic mastermind, a warrior is grounded by a sorcerer sealing away his ability to fly, not by telekinetically grabbing him and dragging him to the ground against his resistance.

The thing is, if Dandeer did something conceptually straightforward like "Seal away all Berra's memories of why he might want to hurt me, and all his reservations about trying to protect me, and all his resistance to doing exactly as I say," then Berra is still acting on some set of knowledge and information recognizable from his own perspective and motives.

Berra PROBABLY still knows who we are and doesn't want to kill us. He probably still knows who Jaffur is (or has deduced it from 'badass super-saiyan about Kakara's age'), and MAY still hesitate to kill him- maybe.

But if Berra knows who the Senzus are, he has no incentive not to kill them. He remembers them as a bunch of rebels who defied him and deprived the Exiles of valuable resources including their only spaceship and their senzu bean farm, for years. He remembers their Lord has having grazed the super-saiyan transformation. He remembers them trying to stop him once before, during the Sealing. They may have already been under Berra's death sentence before the Unsealing, and only events since the Unsealing would give Berra any reason to reverse that decision.

Berra has an ulterior motive to not go lethal against us if he still knows who we are. He has much less incentive to not go lethal against the Senzus.

Plus, of course, the power mismatch making it actively pretty difficult for him to pull his punches hard enough to avoid killing them.

Our best hope there is that Dandelor is close enough to Dandeer's equal that his 'passive' shielding can absorb a single super-saiyan blast even from Berra in ape form.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Our best hope there is that Dandelor is close enough to Dandeer's equal that his 'passive' shielding can absorb a single super-saiyan blast even from Berra in ape form.
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There is another, much more messy, hope...

There is a reason that the Senzu went rebel, more than anything else, and it involves an impromptu transformation.
 
Simon_Jester said:
But if Berra knows who the Senzus are, he has no incentive not to kill them. He remembers them as a bunch of rebels who defied him and deprived the Exiles of valuable resources including their only spaceship and their senzu bean farm, for years. He remembers their Lord has having grazed the super-saiyan transformation. He remembers them trying to stop him once before, during the Sealing. They may have already been under Berra's death sentence before the Unsealing, and only events since the Unsealing would give Berra any reason to reverse that decision.
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Do you remember if Berra wanted to go lethal against the aliens?

I just don't think going for lethal blows is his usual tactic against any opponent.

Also, I think it's only Raditz that was under Berra's death sentence for trying to go Super Saiyan, not the entire clan. He's not Yammar, after all. And even then, a non-mind-controlled Berra would likely want to knock him out and sentence him to death in a proper trial rather than summarily execute him, so the question is if the mind control would override that.
 
[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Go for Dandeer's tail, using her as a flail to keep Berra at bay while Dandelor breaks the mind control.[/
 
Bommelom said:
Do you remember if Berra wanted to go lethal against the aliens?

I just don't think going for lethal blows is his usual tactic against any opponent.

Also, I think it's only Raditz that was under Berra's death sentence for trying to go Super Saiyan, not the entire clan. He's not Yammar, after all. And even then, a non-mind-controlled Berra would likely want to knock him out and sentence him to death in a proper trial rather than summarily execute him, so the question is if the mind control would override that.
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I wonder if Raditz has been practicing that. Just in case.
 
Bommelom said:
He showed us that Dandelor's wards weren't strong enough to suppress a Super Saiyan. I'd really not count on Raditz being able to turn into a Super Saiyan for this fight.
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It's not entirely inconceivable the wards are stronger, but...

A: I doubt it because it's not real consistent with Dandelor's behavior towards us.

B: I doubt it because the hall wards are supposed to be state of the art.

Relatedly, it's more plausible Raditz lied about his super Saiyan-ness, but while I doubt that, too, if he did, unless the wards are stronger, that'd mean he's untrained. So not really gonna matter enough against Berra/Lord Vegeta.
 
Terrabrand said:
It's not entirely inconceivable the wards are stronger, but...

A: I doubt it because it's not real consistent with Dandelor's behavior towards us.

B: I doubt it because the hall wards are supposed to be state of the art.

Relatedly, it's more plausible Raditz lied about his super Saiyan-ness, but while I doubt that, too, if he did, unless the wards are stronger, that'd mean he's untrained. So not really gonna matter enough against Berra/Lord Vegeta.
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Might matter against Vegeta if he comes in while he's still recovering from his tail being burned off. Also, willpower pushes.
 
Much more simple reason Berra might go lethal: he's just as aware of the Senzu Bean option as we are, so removing people from combat in a way that can't be undone near-immediately is a tactically relevant consideration. As such, if he's under sufficiently strong compulsion, he would absolutely have cause to kill rather than merely disabling.
 
Cariyaga said:
There is another, much more messy, hope...

There is a reason that the Senzu went rebel, more than anything else, and it involves an impromptu transformation.
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That would not be good news.

Firstly, Berra can effortlesly destroy a newly minted super saiyan. I'm quite sure Lord Vegeta could too even if he retains even rudimentary ability to move and fight with the loss of his tail. Either of them would do so.

Secondly, any significant number of the Senzus transforming creates a huge problem for us in the post-Unsealing environment, politically speaking. Either we have to execute our best and most loyal allies who supported Jaffur most faithfully of all... Or we effectively blow the doors off the 'no super saiyans' rule that's historically kept the Exiles from tearing each other, and Garenhuld, apart. Even if we make Senzu a third royal house, and that is NOT completely unreasonable, it wouldn't excuse more than one super-saiyan from that household, arguably two. And if only Raditz Senzu and Betarel Senzu transform, it's not going to be enough to make a decisive difference; both of them put together would be at best a match for a BADLY crippled Lord Vegeta.

Third and last, the Senzus can't have been transformation or training their transformations; their wards aren't up to it- which MAY no longer be true, Dandelor COULD no doubt create a set of super-saiyan grade wards given time.
 
No Senzu is super saiyan. They were there when Yammar executed house Talt and are too afraid of him making a repeat performance.
 
Also, this.

I was focusing on reasons why we shouldn't or can't expect it to be true, but that's also a good reason for it to not be true.
 
[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Go for Dandeer's tail, using her as a flail to keep Berra at bay while Dandelor breaks the mind control.

Phone voting: not even once
 
[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.

[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] The Senzus can't reach Jaffur right now without turning into collateral damage. Focus on getting him to them for healing.

[X] Fight on. You can still win this.
-[X] Keep going after Dandeer, in conjunction with Dandelor. She is as distracted as she is ever going to get. It'll mean getting past your father to do it, but you have the edge in speed; it should be doable.


PoptartProdigy said:
-Snip-
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Can you threadmark this or add it to the image index? It'd be a shame in new questors / readers don't get to experience this.

KaintukeeBob said:
. . . If Dandeer was going to magically control her son, it would have been Jaron, since Jaffur was Sealed away.

So, uh, this might not be a good thing.
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When the sealing took place, the invisi-text looked very much like Jaron would be Dandeer's thrall. In reflection, it's actually a bit surprising that our experience with Jaron hasn't involved this more noticeably. Either during normal interactions or when he remembers. Or Jaffur, if not Jaron. Then again, my memory is crap and I probably should re-read the story.

(Note: blue text was invisitext)

PoptartProdigy said:
Lady Vegeta shakes her head slowly and turns to the two of you. "It's going to be alright, Jaffur," she says, raising her hands. "I'm going to make you feel better. I promise."

Jaffur's ki is a roiling storm beside you, and you can nearly hear his screaming.

Lady Vegeta flips through a series of hand seals and says, "Paparapapa."

Jaffur snaps the binding your Dad has on him, but not to attack.

No, Jaffur breaks free simply to scream.
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta, the Scion of Vegeta.
Lady Vegeta starts crying, but continues her spell. "Paparapapa."
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta.
Jaffur curls up on himself, wailing.
You are Jaffur Vegeta.
"It'll be over soon, Jaffur, I promise! Paparapapa!"
You are Jaffur.
"Please!" shouts Jaffur, writhing.
Jaffur.
In the distance, your Dad snags Betarel out of the air and tucks the boy under his arm.
Ja...Jaff...Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
"Let him go!" screams Betarel.
You are Jaron Somerlad.
Jaffur drops out of his transformation.
You are eight years old, and have a Mom, a Dad, and a little sister.
"Paparapapa!"
You sometimes resent your Dad, because he works so much and is gone so often, leaving you and your little sister alone.
Jaffur flickers between his base form and his Super Saiyan state, struggling to maintain control.
But your Mom is always there for you.
His eyes lock on you and he screams, "HELP ME!"
And you love her.
Lady Vegeta's hands twist through another array of seals. "Papara..."
You love her with all your heart.
Jaffur screams to the heavens, flashing back into his transformed state...
And nothing else is as important as that.
"PAPA!"
You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with...
...and then he crashes down through his base state and into his Masque before slumping back on the sand, eyes fluttering shut.
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LucidityWaver said:
When the sealing took place, the invisi-text looked very much like Jaron would be Dandeer's thrall. In reflection, it's actually a bit surprising that our experience with Jaron hasn't involved this more noticeably. Either during normal interactions or when he remembers. Or Jaffur, if not Jaron. Then again, my memory is crap and I probably should re-read the story.
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This has noticeably affected Jaron. Because the magical seals Dandeer placed on Jaron's mind to compel him to love and obey her have effectively given him a rather nasty mental illness that's afflicting him for reasons he can't understand or compensate for. He's constantly feeling impulses that his brain's magical auto-censors squash, feeling urges to question or disagree with his mother that get squashed, and he has to a large extent internalized this.

You may also recall that whenever Jaron winds up inside Jaffur's mindspace during sleep, he switches into berserk rage at what has been done to him and resolves to kill his mother. Only for these feelings of rage to be purged from his mind again when he wakes up. And then the next night he remembers being forced to forget. Again. And again. For over a thousand cycles that we know of.

You may recall that it drove him to the brink of a suicide attempt a week or so before the Unsealing.

I'd call that a noticeable effect. We've definitely seen the indirect consequences of what the Sealing has done to Jaron's mind.

The main reason we haven't noticed it directly affecting him (i.e. speech and behavior patterns) is because Karen Marsden mostly interacts with Jaron Somerlad when his mother isn't around.
 
By the way, we most likely dodged a bullet with not going after Dandeer when we had a vision of the night of the sealing. Had Dandelor and Jaffur not burned through it, he would likely be one of the thralls.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
This has noticeably affected Jaron. Because the magical seals Dandeer placed on Jaron's mind to compel him to love and obey her have effectively given him a rather nasty mental illness that's afflicting him for reasons he can't understand or compensate for. He's constantly feeling impulses that his brain's magical auto-censors squash, feeling urges to question or disagree with his mother that get squashed, and he has to a large extent internalized this.

You may also recall that whenever Jaron winds up inside Jaffur's mindspace during sleep, he switches into berserk rage at what has been done to him and resolves to kill his mother. Only for these feelings of rage to be purged from his mind again when he wakes up. And then the next night he remembers being forced to forget. Again. And again. For over a thousand cycles that we know of.

You may recall that it drove him to the brink of a suicide attempt a week or so before the Unsealing.

I'd call that a noticeable effect. We've definitely seen the indirect consequences of what the Sealing has done to Jaron's mind.

The main reason we haven't noticed it directly affecting him (i.e. speech and behavior patterns) is because Karen Marsden mostly interacts with Jaron Somerlad when his mother isn't around.
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Yeah, I couldn't recall any noticeable direct effects of the "compel him to love and obey her" part.

I was only expressing surprise that we haven't seen the magical compulsion more.

The part where he goes into a berserk rage in the mindscape I mostly attributed to him being (understandably) enraged at having his memory wiped every day and such. Similar with some, but not all, of the cognitive dissonance and weirdness impacting his mental health. That was a good breakdown / summary, thanks. I'll try to keep in mind that Jaron's going through these things as well as the memory part of the sealing mess.
 
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