Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
and we haven't seen Joe's passenger's opinion of Coil for how long exactly?
They aren't using him as an asset they're using him as an experiment
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
If this was the case before, it should be different now that the Forge knows Coil knows more than enough of Apeiron's capabilities to humiliate his silly mercs without playing any new cards.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
So some pre-update speculation.
Joe can take many approaches with some of the questions posed to him at the meeting.
Like, "you defeated the ABB, what are your intentions with regards to their territory (the Docks)."
Now, in some respect, it would seem like the standard Villain move would be to claim ownership over it, but that would require a social contract with the people living there, even if one of force and coercion, it still implies interactions and engagement, which would color Joe's response and other people to Apeiron, which is why I'd guess most people here bet against that happening.
But for example, Joe can bullshit or bluff, which is something people ironically would NOT expect of Apeiron, because what need would he have to bluff? And he keeps his word far beyond what most would consider reasonable, so most probably think he would be careful of overt lies. But nothing stops Joe from doing either. Even Lisa would have trouble lie detecting right now.
My guesses would be that he'll do one of the following, or a combination.
1) Claim that there was a pre-existing agreement with the Undersiders, and that "[he] won't interfere with them". Detractor for this approach is it subtly encourages them into classic Supervillain behavior at best, which really I'm doubtful they can afford to lean into heavily due to a number of conflicts of interest. And at worst it would make them seem like puppets for him, which many already suspect, but this would as good as confirm it.
2) State that he is operating out of that part of the City. That he has either facilities or assets tied up in it. Which. While not implying the people there have to pay him for protection, or that he's doing Villain stuff like running drugs and guns and girls there, it as good as says 'you're going to claim ownership of where I live and work? Good luck.'
3) Say that he has taken a contract to support the recovery efforts, and little else. This as good as kicks the can down the road, but no one will want to interfere with his contract while it is ongoing. As it as good as says that he will not stop until the docks are considered "recovered". And when Apeiron considers something to be fixed, that will form a very different impression compared to what other people would consider having been fixed.
4) Possibly he will say nothing, but I mean, that's unbelievable. Most think he has elaborate plans, or someone made the plans for him at least, but they're still his plans. He is the clear leader. He has to do something with the Docks, as saying he will stand aside after that monstrous display of power and then further the quote unquote ID recognition 'threat', he can't afford to look weak.
Next. Lisa. Something Lord says he wants to tackle carefully, as it has big implications for her development from all these setbacks.
Lisa is trapped by her own stumbling into success, never satisfied until she feels she owns that success, and keeps falling further and further behind reaching that state. Joe has helped her, but he also occupies a niche of authority and the power dynamics are exactly the kind she wishes to avoid.
Even the afterthought level of work that went into her watch must seem like a bigger taunt about their respective hierarchy as while not intentional. She must have thought her navigating through his software's hidden command tree was so clever and smart, and when that rug was pulled out from under her, it wasn't with a serious reprimand or flashing warning, but the Watch simply giving her a blatant parental controls type menu.
See, Lisa doesn't cope well with that kind of relationship. And with her team now taking everything she says with literal fist fulls of salt, she has just discovered that she can't even manipulate people to gain an edge against Joe effectively, as trust has already been breached.
So she pretty much has to confront her own inadequacy head on or go into denial, which she isn't really in a position to do in either case, since this meeting is so important.
Also, on another note, but Taylor might be the only one in a position to speak for her Team right now, with Brian and Lisa unprepared to a handle this situation meaningfully. Which would as good as cement her as the leader of the Undersiders at least unofficially, which some might already assume since people think she's got a special relationship with Apeiron.
Joe can take many approaches with some of the questions posed to him at the meeting.
Like, "you defeated the ABB, what are your intentions with regards to their territory (the Docks)."
Now, in some respect, it would seem like the standard Villain move would be to claim ownership over it, but that would require a social contract with the people living there, even if one of force and coercion, it still implies interactions and engagement, which would color Joe's response and other people to Apeiron, which is why I'd guess most people here bet against that happening.
But for example, Joe can bullshit or bluff, which is something people ironically would NOT expect of Apeiron, because what need would he have to bluff? And he keeps his word far beyond what most would consider reasonable, so most probably think he would be careful of overt lies. But nothing stops Joe from doing either. Even Lisa would have trouble lie detecting right now.
My guesses would be that he'll do one of the following, or a combination.
1) Claim that there was a pre-existing agreement with the Undersiders, and that "[he] won't interfere with them". Detractor for this approach is it subtly encourages them into classic Supervillain behavior at best, which really I'm doubtful they can afford to lean into heavily due to a number of conflicts of interest. And at worst it would make them seem like puppets for him, which many already suspect, but this would as good as confirm it.
2) State that he is operating out of that part of the City. That he has either facilities or assets tied up in it. Which. While not implying the people there have to pay him for protection, or that he's doing Villain stuff like running drugs and guns and girls there, it as good as says 'you're going to claim ownership of where I live and work? Good luck.'
3) Say that he has taken a contract to support the recovery efforts, and little else. This as good as kicks the can down the road, but no one will want to interfere with his contract while it is ongoing. As it as good as says that he will not stop until the docks are considered "recovered". And when Apeiron considers something to be fixed, that will form a very different impression compared to what other people would consider having been fixed.
4) Possibly he will say nothing, but I mean, that's unbelievable. Most think he has elaborate plans, or someone made the plans for him at least, but they're still his plans. He is the clear leader. He has to do something with the Docks, as saying he will stand aside after that monstrous display of power and then further the quote unquote ID recognition 'threat', he can't afford to look weak.
Next. Lisa. Something Lord says he wants to tackle carefully, as it has big implications for her development from all these setbacks.
Lisa is trapped by her own stumbling into success, never satisfied until she feels she owns that success, and keeps falling further and further behind reaching that state. Joe has helped her, but he also occupies a niche of authority and the power dynamics are exactly the kind she wishes to avoid.
Even the afterthought level of work that went into her watch must seem like a bigger taunt about their respective hierarchy as while not intentional. She must have thought her navigating through his software's hidden command tree was so clever and smart, and when that rug was pulled out from under her, it wasn't with a serious reprimand or flashing warning, but the Watch simply giving her a blatant parental controls type menu.
See, Lisa doesn't cope well with that kind of relationship. And with her team now taking everything she says with literal fist fulls of salt, she has just discovered that she can't even manipulate people to gain an edge against Joe effectively, as trust has already been breached.
So she pretty much has to confront her own inadequacy head on or go into denial, which she isn't really in a position to do in either case, since this meeting is so important.
Also, on another note, but Taylor might be the only one in a position to speak for her Team right now, with Brian and Lisa unprepared to a handle this situation meaningfully. Which would as good as cement her as the leader of the Undersiders at least unofficially, which some might already assume since people think she's got a special relationship with Apeiron.
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MagicalAmbitions
the rose in your vase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
well yeah, exactly. he's not "a resource of cauldron" who they're looking to protect/ willing to assist. he's their hypothesis for the brockton bay experiment, with a question of "who will become the parahuman lord of brockton bay and will they be able to run the city in a way that is stable / successful". they don't care about him and won't lift a finger to help him, so it's ridiculous to say that his nebulous connection to Cauldron increases his threat-level.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
They can also call favors and use their institutional leverage to attack Joe socially, but that's sort of immaterial to the situation at hand, and I doubt they want to make him their enemy.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
There is a misconception regarding how powerful or 'weak' Eidolon is in the Fandom due to some stuff being offscreen. But Eidolon only mentions he is weak compared to his heyday shortly after Triggering via Vial, as he could have driven off multiple Endbringers solo according to WoG.
In the Timeskip, Eidolon is still so strong that he was instrumental in driving off Endbringers multiple times, even though there were three new ones that he and everyone else wasn't as familiar with.
Eidolon is to Joe as Scion is to Eidolon, as it stands. Eidolon could also have varied match-ups with Joe, from his shard hitting those Sechen ranges and picking abilities that just SLAP versus Apeiron, to struggling to meaningfully do anything against him. But that comes down to motivation and circumstances and environment. And in none of those match-ups would Eidolon be the clear loser.
People swing the nerfbat at him due to the hate all the time in fanfics, but he's legitimately Cauldron's Trump card.
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- Location
- Nowhere
His protection from Thinker's and in specific Pre-Cog's is not Anti-Pre-Cog, The protection he put in place is something that if I remember right is a conceptual or divine tier object that makes whomsoever tries to see whoever wears it false facts leading them to be misguided as a blank spot would make them know something was there.
This allows Joe and whoever wears his Anti-Thinker objects the ability to do whatever they wish without a Thinker including both Pre-Cog and Post-Cog from being able to figure out they are being fooled.
This should work of PtV as it has been stated to be able to fool the Simurgh, which is arguably more powerful than PtV as it can also show you the exact steps you need to do to get something done by reading the past and future.
I may have some things wrong and if anything is wrong I would love someone to point it out!
That only works for natural triggers not cauldron capes.
Though Eidolon is indeed stronger than most Fic show him. Joe's best skill against him is his Noble Phantasam since it allows him to counter craft.
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- Location
- Nowhere
Well that depends on how Victors power defines skill and what it's limits and functions are, does Victor need to relive the memories of the skills? or is it instantaneous, Is there a limit on how much of a skill he can take? or is it only a matter of time like he could take the skill of on hobbyist painter in seconds but someone like Leonardo Da Vinci might take minutes? Even with the skills some of what Joe does is Fiat backed to work.
I am admittedly not that well verse with his power.
- Location
- Mass
I mean, Joe would probably notice that happening, and it would break the truce. I don't think Kaiser would want to test Apeiron after he's had a two day break, specifically after the whole "three day old tech" comment. Or the fact that he has multiple C53's as allies who are notoriously difficult to make work with certain kinds of powers.
MagicalAmbitions
the rose in your vase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
the problem is that, as joe pondered while making some anti-thinker for Aisha - shards use a broad variety of means to achieve their ends, and therefore making something that outright blocks all thinker/pre-cog is very difficult, therefore the "If it works on contessa's power". it Probably does, but Contessa is still a threat to Eidolon, who has outright immunity to shard-based pre-cog and is almost endbringer-tier in power level.
- Location
- Nowhere
I thought Sechen range was something cauldron capes didn't have due to their Shard's being "dead" was I wrong?
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
No, you remember correctly. Though in hindsight this actually supports my argument. See, Eidolon encountered three new Endbringers and consistently performed better than good against them, whilst crippled.
And it comes down to pure skill and experience. He's been messing with power interactions for thirty odd years or thereabouts. Joe may have ingrained memories, but having specialist background in specifically Capefights is a huge advantage.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Well, their connections do vary in strength.
It's just that they don't "trigger" under stress conditions - their links to their passengers are calibrated for sitting in a room and drinking a cauldron vial, rather than being calibrated for a hostile environment.
Either way, Joe-induced Sechen ranges are purely a product of shard agency, not of autonomic shard mechanics, so who knows how they'll play out for vial capes.
- Location
- Nowhere
She only has a mental model of Eidolon which is only workable and reliable because she has known him for so long, if some new blank-spot or someone with a power that gives every thinker false leads in a way that makes them not able to figure out that they are false that, that would trick her especially because I doubt her mental model of Aperion would actually be anywhere accurate with the Celestial Forge granting him powers on a constistant basis rapidly increasing his danger level beyond what it was.
- Location
- Philippines
The thing is, the way Joe's talisman functions against pre-cog is by outright denying any observers of valid information. Remember, shard precog is considered divination magic, and Joe has two layers of defenses - a ward that gives a misleading passive image to observers, and a shield that outright blocks observers should they even manage to get past the first protection. And without valid information to work off with, shard precog around Joe is basically like Tattletale working with trash data - getting wildly inconsistent responses compared to actual reality.
- Location
- Right Where I Am
I was just looking over Aisha's first visit to the workshop again, and the bit where she finds out about the debt that the Undersiders have. Joe mentions that it's the sort of thing that they would have to trade organs or family members to pay off.
Now here he is walking in with Aisha.
Now here he is walking in with Aisha.
Lightwavers
Purple Noodle
- Pronouns
- they/them
For Apeiron specifically I suspect you're right, as he isn't going around broadcasting his abilities to anyone without an anti-Thinker bracelet. But even if she doesn't know someone personally, her power can fill in the details around a blank spot by using secondary sources as modeling.
- Location
- Nowhere
Secondary sources which are also being misled about Aperion, no one knows about his real capabilities as they keep rising everything being thrown around about him is pure conjecture, that's not to say she could very well and possibly has managed to get what she thinks is true data about Aperion, the only secondary sources that could possibly hold any true data would be the Workshop Crew and even that is debatable.
- Location
- Texas
If that was the case he wouldn't be safe from the simurgh either.
- Pronouns
- Gralan
Make your predictions! for the bar scene....i going for..... the true and tried method. Misunderstanding and escelation...ALOT of escelation
- Location
- Mass
I think perhaps the funniest thing about this story is how massively everyone cocks up with figuring out how Apeiron works. It's great. There are so many misunderstandings.
MagicalAmbitions
the rose in your vase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
hence "for Apeiron specifically you're right but not for other people".