Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

I wonder however if it is actually Coil's body double I can't remember if it was canon or fanon that he employed someone who looked like him within a costume to take his place.

In canon, he participated to Somer's personally. That being said, he made extensive use of body doubles later in the story (through not of himself - he body doubled Taylor and Tattletale), so it wouldn't be out of character for him to bring a body double this time around.
 
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I wonder what the order of operations is going to be for the meeting. Will they discuss the ABB's destruction first, and then whether or not anybody gets parts of their former territory, followed by Apeiron? Or will it be Apeiron first, then the rest of the stuff I mentioned? Will it be all three at once?
 
so it wouldn't be out of character for him to bring a body double this time around.
It should be pretty in character for the public perception of apeiron to notice body doubles and call them out for duplicity. He's a performer himself so it's not a stretch to assume he'd notice small signs, and that would make body doubles a bad idea. On the other hand coil thinks he's scared, soooooo….. it's anyone's guess
 
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If Coil go for a body double, he'll mostly likely go by himself on the 2nd timeline. That way if a body double wasn't needed for his own security and/or he was recognized and publicly shamed by Apeiron, he can collapse the body double timeline.
 
I wonder what the order of operations is going to be for the meeting. Will they discuss the ABB's destruction first, and then whether or not anybody gets parts of their former territory, followed by Apeiron? Or will it be Apeiron first, then the rest of the stuff I mentioned? Will it be all three at once?
The meeting will probably be bring up each non-Apeiron topic followed by everyone looking to see what the iron ape's reaction is.

Also I doubt Joe's passenger can spot a Coil body double since it's limited to Joe's senses, more likely is that his passenger, being the avatar of fanon, will assume its a body double whether it is or not.
 
I was looking at Capstones out of curiosity and I realised that "All Spark Chosen" is one of the better perks he could get for the meeting. Wisdom to rival philosopher-kings and the ability to talk yourself out of most situations. I mean, it's a huge perspective shift to go from as he is now to that but still. Also, "Transformer Jesus-Buddha" is hilarious to me.

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Also I doubt Joe's passenger can spot a Coil body double since it's limited to Joe's senses, more likely is that his passenger, being the avatar of fanon, will assume its a body double whether it is or not.

You mean like how Joe has a technology sense that would be able to detect a device giving instructions to the body double? I'm assuming that Coil would want to have constant access to the meeting technologically if he was sending a double.
 
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In canon, he participated to Somer's personally. That being said, he made extensive use of body doubles later in the story (through not of himself - he body doubled Taylor and Tattletale), so it wouldn't be out of character for him to bring a body double this time around.
Ah thanks! I must of read it somewhere in a fanfic that the Coil in somer's was a body double, again thanks for clarifying that.
 
I was looking at Capstones out of curiosity and I realised that "All Spark Chosen" is one of the better perks he could get for the meeting. Wisdom to rival philosopher-kings and the ability to talk yourself out of most situations. I mean, it's a huge perspective shift to go from as he is now to that but still. Also, "Transformer Jesus-Buddha" is hilarious to me.

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You mean like how Joe has a technology sense that would be able to detect a device giving instructions to the body double? I'm assuming that Coil would want to have constant access to the meeting technologically if he was sending a double.
"All Spark Chosen"
That would be something I would love to be pulled, as you said the perspective shift would be something no one would expect from Aperion who until this point as been seen as some unstoppable force of nature that just keeps escalating in gear and tech at an unprecedented rate.
Something I wouldn't like about it is how it would readily give Joe a way to solve most of his personal problems including the ones with his family, the "Wisdom to rival philosopher-kings" and "Ability to talk yourself out of most situations" those right there would let him be able to control the flow of conversation, due to it's nature it might also outright change him on a fundamental level much like he fears the forge would do.
Wisdom comes with age, experience and knowledge, suddenly gaining enough wisdom to rival philosopher-kings would definitely help his mental health, It would also work with his ninja technique perk the one that came with Ki, which allows him to open dialogues with anyone who is completely unreasonable, stack that with "All Spark Chosen" and you have him making others think "Master" all over again so it would come with it's own issues.
However due to the nature of the Celestial Forge even Lord as no idea if it will pull "All Spark Chosen" or something different, what we do know however is that because all low cost perks have been pulled that it will now start pulling out game changers.
 
You mean like how Joe has a technology sense that would be able to detect a device giving instructions to the body double? I'm assuming that Coil would want to have constant access to the meeting technologically if he was sending a double.

Can Joe's passenger use his extra senses? We usually only see it react to things Joe sees or when Joe asks it questions. If anything Survey is more likely to pick up on and trace any communication technology in the bar/city/country/planet. Which brings up if Coil would risk having a traceable line anywhere near the tinker who out hacked Dragon and is breaking Bakuda's encryption.
 
Can Joe's passenger use his extra senses? We usually only see it react to things Joe sees or when Joe asks it questions. If anything Survey is more likely to pick up on and trace any communication technology in the bar/city/country/planet. Which brings up if Coil would risk having a traceable line anywhere near the tinker who out hacked Dragon and is breaking Bakuda's encryption.

This is true, but that means he'd have to go in person. I'd understand if in one timeline he sends a body double at least initially. Maybe he uses the double as a test to see their information gathering abilities. He can always drop that timeline and start using his power to try out several things simultaneously during the meeting.
 
Someday being a nerd will be cool?

Being a (slightly traditional) nerd is already cool. We won the war of society. Like in the later battle of the nerds movies in the 80's, adult nerds control huge companies, and through 2 generations brought comics and videogames into the mainstream. Internet allows meeting people outside of your immediate physical area, which allows like minded people find friendship and even love. I remember in the 90's I had a schoolmate that had a webpage in Geocities (for the extremely young it was a free webpage server) with pictures of him and his pets, he was openly ridiculed for it. Today this is basic behaviour to be considered "socially existent".
The only way to lack any sort of camaraderie is being actively hostile / antisocial, and even then you would find people that thought like you (which is actually one of the problems of today's internet, antisocial/fringe behaviours get normalized by fringe groups online, radicalizing people even more)

Also I doubt Joe's passenger can spot a Coil body double since it's limited to Joe's senses, more likely is that his passenger, being the avatar of fanon, will assume its a body double whether it is or not.

Joe has a couple of abilities that can detect a parahuman, if he cares to check, he normally won't. Unless the Forge signals suspicion in an accurate enough manner. He will also notice the communications that go through the body double's device, but he won't "hijack" them because he will hold himself to the spirit of the Unwritten Rules.
Also, even though Joe's IQ should be in the high thousands watch him completely misunderstand the Forge signals regarding Coil and his child hostage.
 
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Also, even though Joe's IQ should be in the high thousands watch him completely misunderstand the Forge signals regarding Coil and his child hostage.
To be fair to Joe, he only ever got any messages even remotely regarding Dinah far before he reached his current level of power. And at this point, I'm pretty sure he doesn't even know Dinah exists.
 
To be fair to Joe, he only ever got any messages even remotely regarding Dinah far before he reached his current level of power. And at this point, I'm pretty sure he doesn't even know Dinah exists.
I think your right, he may know of Dinah tangentially as in he knows the mayor has a niece and he even might be aware she was kidnapped, however he has no reason to even imagine that Coil is the reason behind said kidnapping I'm sure if he actually looked into what exactly happened on the day of the bank heist he would also find out that Dinah was kidnapped on that very day his intelligence should be high enough to let him figure out that the timing is awfully coincidental and he may set Survey to look into the digital world and check any cameras that might have a shot of where she was last seen to figure out who took her.
It honestly wouldn't be hard for him to figure out Coil took Dinah however he has his set of rules that much like batman he doesn't or rather at this stage in his Parahuman career he can't break.
I am however shaking at the thought of how angry Joe would get at learning about Dinah and what Coil did and has done to her, I honestly think learning about Dinah will be one of the things that will push him over an edge, once he learns about it I can't see him listening to Lisa at all about anything.
He knows Lisa knows about what Coil used the bank heist for, He knows Lisa knows something about it will make him upset, what he doesn't know is what exactly is the thing, I imagine he will think Coil did something dastardly, something which would annoy him or might even be life threatening considering his Shard agreeing with Lisa about Coil being dangerous (Because of Noelle, though I'm not sure if he has Noelle at this point just yet) however one Lisa seems to deliberately downplay whatever it was Coil did.
This will make Joe angry, not only was he misled about what happened, he was outright lied to his face by Lisa about how bad it was but he will end up blaming himself about how he could of stopped this if he just pushed Lisa about it or even decided to as I said earlier investigate the happenings on the day of the bank heist.
Oh wow.. I totally just realised I went of a bit of a rant 😂
 
I entirely agree that if Joe put his resources towards finding Dinah, it would be no issue for him to find out the truth. That being said, I'm not entirely sure Lisa knows about Dinah, or at least why Dinah was taken. I'm pretty sure Lisa has been a bit too tangled up with the March situation to figure out the specifics, but she does know something has happened. Lord would have to make thecall on that though, as we know too little of Lisa's perspective.
 
Regarding the confrontation between Joe and the Coil. I think as soon as the Mysterious Craftsman makes sure that he is the boss of the Undersiders or the moment with Dina pops up, then you can start a reverse report. With the current capabilities and those that he will receive during the summit, it will not be difficult to find and disassemble the base of a homegrown Bond villain (roughly in the style of a raid on the ABB office). Half a day of pure time, taking into account the most thorough preparation and turning off all the dead man's switches. There is intrigue with the Wanderers' map. Given their desire to make an appointment with Dr. Apeironson, in the event of an open conflict between a respected practitioner and a Coil mediator, there is a significant probability of changing the flag right during the storming of the snake bunker. Or they may end up in the role of a Trojan horse.
 
I entirely agree that if Joe put his resources towards finding Dinah, it would be no issue for him to find out the truth. That being said, I'm not entirely sure Lisa knows about Dinah, or at least why Dinah was taken. I'm pretty sure Lisa has been a bit too tangled up with the March situation to figure out the specifics, but she does know something has happened. Lord would have to make thecall on that though, as we know too little of Lisa's perspective.
Good point!
I didn't even think she might not of known due to being preoccupied, I blame the fact I was locked in a specific thought path while writing it, However Lord wishes it to be done, if she does/doesn't know Joe will not be happy regardless, I feel I have a good sense of his Character and I just can't see him not getting angry as all nine hells about the situation.
 
Regarding the confrontation between Joe and the Coil. I think as soon as the Mysterious Craftsman makes sure that he is the boss of the Undersiders or the moment with Dina pops up, then you can start a reverse report. With the current capabilities and those that he will receive during the summit, it will not be difficult to find and disassemble the base of a homegrown Bond villain (roughly in the style of a raid on the ABB office). Half a day of pure time, taking into account the most thorough preparation and turning off all the dead man's switches. There is intrigue with the Wanderers' map. Given their desire to make an appointment with Dr. Apeironson, in the event of an open conflict between a respected practitioner and a Coil mediator, there is a significant probability of changing the flag right during the storming of the snake bunker. Or they may end up in the role of a Trojan horse.

Yeah, I don't think there's any argument that Coil is going to go down like a chump as soon as Joe sees through the kayfabe of it all.

The only real question IMO is if Apeiron will be able to deal with the Travellers without it being a federal fucking issue, and considering Noelle's everything, that could easily snowball until there's no handling it quietly.

(He'd still be able to manage, mind, but dropping more superweapons on Echidna or biotinkering her into stability would not be a good look in public.)
 
Regarding the confrontation between Joe and the Coil. I think as soon as the Mysterious Craftsman makes sure that he is the boss of the Undersiders or the moment with Dina pops up, then you can start a reverse report. With the current capabilities and those that he will receive during the summit, it will not be difficult to find and disassemble the base of a homegrown Bond villain (roughly in the style of a raid on the ABB office). Half a day of pure time, taking into account the most thorough preparation and turning off all the dead man's switches. There is intrigue with the Wanderers' map. Given their desire to make an appointment with Dr. Apeironson, in the event of an open conflict between a respected practitioner and a Coil mediator, there is a significant probability of changing the flag right during the storming of the snake bunker. Or they may end up in the role of a Trojan horse.
Yeah I can totally see the Travellers changing allegiance if Joe could do something for Noelle, though that is dependant on if he could do anything for her, Noelle is not only a case 53 but also a striker and depending on if Noelle can clone Joe then he won't even be able to touch her to heal her, unless he has some non-physical contact way of healing her (can't remember if he does of the top of my head) There is also the fact from the Travellers perspective Aperion is already supposed to help them, with Coil making it seem like he has some connection to Aperion a connection strong enough to have enough sway to get him to assist the Travellers.
Coil's entire view on Joe is of someone who is a coward, who flees from adversity unless he knows he can win just look at the throwaway timeline from way back at the start of the story when he sends his men after Joe multiple times only for Joe to flee every time, this has distorted his vision of Joe making him much more confident in being able to control him.
 
Yeah, I don't think there's any argument that Coil is going to go down like a chump as soon as Joe sees through the kayfabe of it all.

The only real question IMO is if Apeiron will be able to deal with the Travellers without it being a federal fucking issue, and considering Noelle's everything, that could easily snowball until there's no handling it quietly.

(He'd still be able to manage, mind, but dropping more superweapons on Echidna or biotinkering her into stability would not be a good look in public.)
I know, there is also the issue of if Noelle cloned Aperion's have access to his abilities and or various powers, I don't know if it was ever stated if she could or couldn't clone him, I also can't remember if it was ever stated that The Celestial Forge was actually just acting like a Shard or if his powers do indeed come from a shard connected to the Forge.
Either way even a weakened Aperion is no joke, even if the clones don't have his powers, they are still cloning his biological data which has been altered significantly though nothing Divine should be able to be cloned as PJO gods(which is where his Godly Father and his Blessings come from) don't have DNA.

He could easily deal with Noelle once he realised just how dangerous she is, I can see him trying to help her but I can also see him realising how much of a ticking time bomb she is and with his previous experience I don't see him letting it escalate to a national or federal level, That's not to say it might still reach that point in which case everyone will see that Aperion has yet again raised his tech level orders of magnitude higher than he had access to a couple days ago, further increasing the fear of the Mad Scientist theory while also making them realise he has still yet to hit his limit.
It is going to be hilarious seeing reactions when that happens.
 
Coil's entire view on Joe is of someone who is a coward, who flees from adversity unless he knows he can win just look at the throwaway timeline from way back at the start of the story when he sends his men after Joe multiple times only for Joe to flee every time, this has distorted his vision of Joe making him much more confident in being able to control him.
This is an old evaluation, and Coil's an idiot if he hasn't re-evaluated Apeiron at any point since the ABB's initial bombing spree.
 
I know, there is also the issue of if Noelle cloned Aperion's have access to his abilities and or various powers, I don't know if it was ever stated if she could or couldn't clone him, I also can't remember if it was ever stated that The Celestial Forge was actually just acting like a Shard or if his powers do indeed come from a shard connected to the Forge.
Either way even a weakened Aperion is no joke, even if the clones don't have his powers, they are still cloning his biological data which has been altered significantly though nothing Divine should be able to be cloned as PJO gods(which is where his Godly Father and his Blessings come from) don't have DNA.

He could easily deal with Noelle once he realised just how dangerous she is, I can see him trying to help her but I can also see him realising how much of a ticking time bomb she is and with his previous experience I don't see him letting it escalate to a national or federal level, That's not to say it might still reach that point in which case everyone will see that Aperion has yet again raised his tech level orders of magnitude higher than he had access to a couple days ago, further increasing the fear of the Mad Scientist theory while also making them realise he has still yet to hit his limit.
It is going to be hilarious seeing reactions when that happens.
WOG states Noelle would make a clone with his original shard as a bio-chemical tinker. No extra powers from the forge will carry over.
 
That kind of scorched earth tactic will not work out well for Coil and he knows it. The moment he does that, he also burns bridges with pretty much everyone interested in Apeiron, and that's literally everyone. Even those that wish to take down Apeiron wouldn't appreciate such a flagrant breach of the Unwritten Rules, and that is assuming all of that can take down Apeiron permanently. Because if it doesn't, well nothing will protect Coil from Apeiron unless he's gutsy enough to think that Cauldron would see him as an asset worth protecting despite all that.

No, Coil's Hail-Mary at this point is desperately believing that he can redirect Apeiron into his enemies and not to himself. It's why he's still holding on to the Undersiders despite them being arguably subverted in every way since Joe gave them their watches. It's the only way he can influence Apeiron, after all.
Not really. Coil is petty, but ultimately he is self-serving. If he believes that he can still get by, or even just move out of the Bay scot-free, then he will do it. Ultimately, after all, Brockton Bay is just a city. There are more out there that he could take over in the future. He will only use scorched earth tactics if he believes that he is doomed without a doubt and all he could do is make things worse for everyone else as he falls.
your point about character is fair but I think that in an explicitly Apeiron-vs-Coil situation, Coil would have a decent understanding of exactly how fucked he is. After all, he mostly stays out of the public spotlight for a reason - having people with organizational support explicitly trying to take him out/opposing his efforts is a situation that doesn't bode well for him. Given that we're talking about Apeiron, who's probably recognized as triumvirate-tier by this point after the ungodly hour, I think there's a fair point to be made that whether or not Coil goes scorched-earth depends entirely on where we're starting this vs battle; are we starting from the last chapter, or are we starting at a point where Apeiron is explicitly Coil-hunting?
That's the thing - it's the pathos that is lost. At this point we've literally seen Joe struggle with his self-confidence and self-expression, which makes all the few times he really lets loose that much more satisfying. When he finally learned to let loose and enjoy lava surfing, it was such a fun read because Joe really deserved that break. We've seen him slowly learn to be more happy with himself, even with all of the problems his powers and enemies bring to his doorstep.
I disagree here: lava surfing was a fun read because lava surfing as an activity is Rad as Fuck, and Joe's character development is secondary to that fact.

And on the topic of the strong spark; given the WOG from LordRoustabout on the Strong Spark perk, it seems like it's just taking Joe's existing personality and ratcheting that up towards 11. I really don't see how this is supposed to be something that undermines Joe's character development. If it's just amplifying his personality, aren't his character flaws included in that? Is having an irrational hang-up around wet-tinkering not it's own form of madness?
I know, there is also the issue of if Noelle cloned Aperion's have access to his abilities and or various powers, I don't know if it was ever stated if she could or couldn't clone him, I also can't remember if it was ever stated that The Celestial Forge was actually just acting like a Shard or if his powers do indeed come from a shard connected to the Forge.
Either way even a weakened Aperion is no joke, even if the clones don't have his powers, they are still cloning his biological data which has been altered significantly though nothing Divine should be able to be cloned as PJO gods(which is where his Godly Father and his Blessings come from) don't have DNA.

He could easily deal with Noelle once he realised just how dangerous she is, I can see him trying to help her but I can also see him realising how much of a ticking time bomb she is and with his previous experience I don't see him letting it escalate to a national or federal level, That's not to say it might still reach that point in which case everyone will see that Aperion has yet again raised his tech level orders of magnitude higher than he had access to a couple days ago, further increasing the fear of the Mad Scientist theory while also making them realise he has still yet to hit his limit.
It is going to be hilarious seeing reactions when that happens.
LR has stated that an Echidna clone of Joe would have a connection to his original shard + memories and whatever skills he has that can be replicated by normies (like Alchemy, some martial arts, etc.)

the origin of the CF has been mostly not-touched-on but it's heavily implied to be a not-a-shard acting vaguely like a shard. Remember the part where he describes his trigger, and how the CF showed him the power he would've originally triggered with before giving him the choice to take the forge instead?
This is an old evaluation, and Coil's an idiot if he hasn't re-evaluated Apeiron at any point since the ABB's initial bombing spree.
Given his over-reliance on his power, he probably Has re-evaluated Aperion several times, and gotten the same "he runs away when my men attack him" result.
 
Yeah I can totally see the Travellers changing allegiance if Joe could do something for Noelle, though that is dependant on if he could do anything for her, Noelle is not only a case 53 but also a striker and depending on if Noelle can clone Joe then he won't even be able to touch her to heal her, unless he has some non-physical contact way of healing her (can't remember if he does of the top of my head)

It's not Joe's nanites that are important; his healing from Nanite Removal & Control isn't enough for most Case 53s in isolation, as we saw with Weld, and Noelle's power-granted regeneration will likely override most healing mechanisms, regardless.

The big thing is that Joe is able to build equipment that modifies parahuman power expressions through The Arcane Craft and other magitech abilities. If Noelle cooperates with him (or he's able to whip out Countercraft), then he can buy himself more room to work with.

Just making Noelle a control focus like the one he gave to Aisha would earn him complete faith from the Travelers, in fact.
 
Given his over-reliance on his power, he probably Has re-evaluated Aperion several times, and gotten the same "he runs away when my men attack him" result.
First, we don't know whether simulated Apeiron is still running away at the first sign of Coil.
Second, he also relies on Tattletale's analysis and has almost certainly gotten an updated evaluation from her that contradicts the coward profile.
Third, Apeiron's statements regarding and behavior towards March should tell him that, whatever Apeiron's reason for fleeing in the simulated timelines, it's not because Coil's too threatening. But maybe his ego's too big to get that.
 
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