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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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I'm liking the behind the scenes political conflict going on in the last few chapters and it looks like we might get a payoff in the Weld call next week. I'm hoping for the best for Joe but expecting the worst. As another poster said, Leviathan hitting now would be perfect. I don't think Apeiron has made tech that would warrant the SS9 yet. Powerful, yes, but nothing that would truly make the world better.

Personally, I think the pacing on this fic is fine. I mean, I understand the crticism, but this is a fanwork not meant for publication. The little details are what I like about it. And the nature of his power means ruminating about the various implications and possible combinations of his motes are unavoidable. I suppose they could be written-off or implied, and Joe could just pull out new stuff whenever he needs to, but that would just give it a deus ex machina vibe imo.
 
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readerdreamer said:
Honestly? Not really. He doesn't trust them that much - if anything, his Passenger backfired on the whole fanboying thing since immediately after they ended up cutting a Ward to pieces. And then there's the part where it was the Undersiders', specifically Alec's, mistakes that led to Bakuda escaping the first confrontation. Joe's actually pretty chilly in regards with them, and were not for the fact that he believes Taylor will be relevant to saving the world he would've abandoned them long ago. As it is though, he needs Taylor to be safe, which means he needs the Undersiders to be safe, hence the whole use of the the debt as a controlling lever along with the watches to both protect and keep an eye over them.

He could probably tell Taylor about it, especially now that he sees her as Professor Hebert's daughter first and foremost, but that would only be after he can make sure Tattletale wouldn't be able to find out about it, and by extension, the Undersider's enigmatic boss.
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Yeah, honestly I just don't see the logic in telling anyone about the Forge. If you tell someone, then there is a chance a lot of other people will figure it out because Thinkers are bullshit. And if people figure it out, the public, heroes, villain's and just fucking everybody will freak the fuck out. He owes no one an explanation, so telling someone could horrifically backfire.
 
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tri2 said:
would telling anyone even really change anything? not like they can help or obstruct the process?
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First off, the Simurgh would bomb the fuck out of him if she knew. Every parahuman on the planet would either try to kill him for his potential, or would try to take advantage of him. This would specifically draw the S9 in, and any other gang that wants to cause chaos. No one would trust him because if he has a bad day and just snaps he can release a shit ton of S-class tech.
 
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While I'm being anal-retentive:
LordRoustabout said:
The thing was, projection counted as an act of creation. Mana was being formed into a physical object. It wasn't some detached spell effect or a temporary summon with a timer on it like so many items from Evermore Alchemy. It was a real, persistent creation. Exposure to the natural energies of the world would eventually break it down, but that was an active force working against a very real object. And since it was a creation, all my crafting powers applied, starting with the resource conservation ones.
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The Froggy Ninja said:
UBW functions by not only Projecting the material properties of the weapons, but also their history. This implies that Unlimited Forge Works may be able to Project crafting methods, which should allow at least gimped versions of Skyforge, Secret of Steel and possibly even Master Craftsman. I'm curious if Thaumaturgical Focus: Transmutation contains enough information to imply that possibility.
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F/SN is really vague about this because all of the magical lore is explicated by characters with various misconceptions about what they're doing, but projection is at least theoretically capable of producing permanent "real" objects (as observed with Shirou's completely persistent conjurations, and the fact that he had to be told that objects created via gradation air were supposed to dissipate).

However, I think it's an open question as to whether Shirou's projection magic is merely a hyperspecialized extension of ordinary projection, in the same way that all Mysteries can be explored in depth, or if Shirou's applications of Projection are completely unique to him on account of his Element and associated Reality Marble.

In the former case, sufficiently advanced visualization techniques and spellcasting methods (realized in Shirou's case through the aid of his RM, and in Joe's case by the fact that he's not baseline human) are probably sufficient to advance projection magic to that new plateau of creating permanent projections, falsifying histories, etc. In the latter case, Joe is completely out of luck on account of his not having Unlimited Blade Works, though he might be able to do some novel research work and fill in the blanks by using his demigod nature and descent from Hephaestus or somesuch.

Either way, though, projection magecraft is fundamentally about falsifying objects which "already exist" in some sense; the transient replication of existing objects not at hand is given as the primary (only) use case for ordinary projection, and Shirou himself is seemingly unable to visualize and project novel creations, even with access to an arbitrary amount of blueprints to recombine or crib from.

So I think that it might fit for Joe to be able to copy effects like Master Craftsman and the Secret of Steel, but only when replicating items to which those effects had already been applied normally. He could project a copy of a sword forged with the Secret of Steel, but not project such a sword from scratch.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
 
There is a reason on why Joe might tell someone though. As having Aisha around has shown, having someone around who doesn't have a direct connection to the Forge yet knows of it helps Joe on multiple ways, primarily as a way to ground himself but also as an outside perspective on what he can do.

The AIs are fundamentally too different to work for that, Garment is overwhelmingly focused on fashion, and Tetra is an actual alien. None of them have Aisha's down to earth perspective that frequently reminds Joe on how it is to be human - which given how the AIs actually saw Joe more as an AI in a funny meat suit before she came along, is actually pretty damn relevant even without counting his mental state.

He certainly would've taken much longer, for example, to figure out the fictional thing without Aisha, and he would've not taken it as well without her carrying him through it. It is likely that without her on that Moon Base, he would've backslid from his progress over his problems.

But the thing is, Aisha is just a kid. Not only does this mean that she really isn't that equipped to deal with Joe's problems, Joe himself hesitates to do so with her too much since already she is buckling a bit under all of the weight. So Joe would indeed benefit from having another confidant to turn to.

Fortunately, there's at least a couple more available. There's the actual psychologist who has the training, or close to what is needed, to deal with Joe's problems and who Joe trusts will keep his secrets, and then there's the grown man who feels indebted to Joe and had shown enough mettle to face Bakuda twice over now and has a better understanding of Joe's powers than anyone other than Aisha currently.

Neither of them are capes, but well, Joe doesn't need capes. He needs the opposite of capes: down to earth people who will help him keep perspective no matter what.
 
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Hmm, a good chappy about Joe being Dadpeiron, not bad, nota bad.

I liked how it come across that Joe's thanks really weighted on Aisha, she liked being thanked and appreciated, but the resposability still weighted her on.

Survey and Tetra being sibling is still as heartwarming as ever. So is Fleet being the resposible one. Ans all 3 AIs still feel like different aspects of Joe to me. Blametaking, over analysis, and perfectionism. Goal oriented, being helpful, and curious.

And this point of the story I don't if I want next chappy to be a Weld Interlude (outside perspectives on Joe are always fun) or Lisa (Sherlock Scanning Joe's tech and Coil's reacting to his bullshit).
 
Koraan said:
Thanks for the update!


Not yet. He has databases for weapons, armor, and equipment. Not for industry, spaceships, or anything else.


That. Very much that. Also, he afraid that Simurgh will be on the attack course as soon as he'll show something like that.
I doubt it but understand his fear.
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he got the general technology tree already for Necromunda and that hive specifically canonically has an STC
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
UBW functions by not only Projecting the material properties of the weapons, but also their history. This implies that Unlimited Forge Works may be able to Project crafting methods, which should allow at least gimped versions of Skyforge, Secret of Steel and possibly even Master Craftsman. I'm curious if Thaumaturgical Focus: Transmutation contains enough information to imply that possibility.
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he is literaly a forge god, he probably understands the forge more then a servant like EMYA

heck saber Emya is considered even more of a sword maker then archer
 
the DragonBard said:
You know, this chapter made me wonder what would happen if Shirou Emiya got the Celestial Forge.
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He would be so op it wouldn't even be funny, seriously I give Shirou like 6 months before he creates a weapon that is able to kill ultimate ones/Types or even beast, in a one on one fight with zero help. I would say he would have better odds against a serious Gilgamesh that isn't sandbagging(like he does in every route because Gil is too prideful and arrogant, to seriously unleash his more powerful weapons).
 
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the DragonBard said:
You know, this chapter made me wonder what would happen if Shirou Emiya got the Celestial Forge.
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I've been imagining that for months now. Celestial Forge!Shirou would break canon Fate Stay/Night over his knee and the only worthy opponents to him would be found in Fate/Zero, Apocrypha and Grand Order.

Maybe he ends up in Notes due to a mishap and has to fight the Ultimate Ones and A-Liners or in Ancient Greece and has to fight the Olympian Pantheon and Veber at the height of their power. Bonus points if he roll the PJO Demigod and Titan perks for maximum hilarity.

Goodness forbid if CF!Shirou gains access to the Moon Cell and that timelines special brand of bullshit.
 
@LordRoustabout I want to preface this by saying that I enjoy your story.

You really capture the inhuman mindsets of the Forge's Companions, while still making them sympathetic characters. For example, Garment, with her focus on fashion, and all the subtleties she can communicate with cloth. That Fleet interlude you wrote recently is one of the best artificial intelligence POVs I have read in quite some time.

Watching Joe get stronger is also a treat. With the magic circuits and projection, he can now pull out powerful and versatile tools instantly. Seeing all the cool shit he can do is fun. It helps that you have a good grasp of science and engineering, and can clearly communicate how the powers from the Celestial Forge function.

And seeing all the perspectives of other people from Preambles, Addendums, and Interludes is great. You are a talented author, and you made me want to read a Chubster interlude.

However, like many other people in this thread, I think the pacing is too slow. When Joe gets a Perk from the Forge, he spends a few hundred words describing it, then another hundred words describing how it interacts with his other abilities, and then a few hundred words of action and character interaction before he gets a new Perk. It's exhausting, and I often find myself skipping all the technical details. I want to see him interact with the people around and change the world, not spend all day in the Forge crafting.

Perhaps you could slow down the rate at which Joe gets new powers. As an example, maybe you could go from 100CP per 2000 words to 100CP per 3000 words. It would considerably slow down the rate at which he gets more powers, leaving room for more character interaction, but it would not be too drastic of a change.
 
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@LordRoustabout
While I am disappointed that this chapters length was only that of half a normal book it still is VERY awesome. Seeing more character interaction is always a treat and Joe actually having the problems of 'normal' Parahumans is quite ironic considering his range of powers/abilities is at this point just utterly ridiculous, unlike the previous week where his personal load out was still somewhat believable but his problems were decidedly irregular. Joe finally somewhat accepting "good enough" really gives the whole situation a feely good touch that it in my opinion sorely missed. Not to forget having Apeiron the guy who can with a slight shift of posture become absolutely terrifying get Ears that he himself calls adorable (the degree of adorableness was still unclear) is making me look forward to what the reactions to an embarrassed Apeiron will be (if he gets questioned about it).

What I am a bit confused by is the still present fear of the Simurgh. I know that her visiting would be a huge problem for Brockton Bay and its population, but as far as I know the Simurgh relies on the presence of other tinkers to develop annihilation equipment/tinker tech (the only thing Joe has to fear personally). Or am I just misinterpreting the whole passage and he just doesn't want to add another problem to his list of problems (Dragons Mastering, Taylors Destiny, Marchs Threat, the Undersiders Boss, the PRTs incompentent Reactions, the Villain Power Vacuum, Taylors 'Mission' ...... I think I just answered my own question).

Considering I made this Account specifically with the purpose to stop lurking and start praising this amazing story (something I somehow forgot to do). Ahum

ALL HAIL THE GREAT LORD OF FUNNY TYPOS!
 
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Slayer 10321 said:
I've been imagining that for months now. Celestial Forge!Shirou would break canon Fate Stay/Night over his knee and the only worthy opponents to him would be found in Fate/Zero, Apocrypha and Grand Order.

Maybe he ends up in Notes due to a mishap and has to fight the Ultimate Ones and A-Liners or in Ancient Greece and has to fight the Olympian Pantheon and Veber at the height of their power. Bonus points if he roll the PJO Demigod and Titan perks for maximum hilarity.

Goodness forbid if CF!Shirou gains access to the Moon Cell and that timelines special brand of bullshit.
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Wouldn't the combo of Celestial Forge and UBW drive Shirou (more) insane? I was under the impression that forcefully changing a reality marble, like the Celestial Forge is liable to do, is a recipe for disaster.
 
Jiggy000 said:
Wouldn't the combo of Celestial Forge and UBW drive Shirou (more) insane? I was under the impression that forcefully changing a reality marble, like the Celestial Forge is liable to do, is a recipe for disaster.
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That's a bit iffy, cause the reality marble is inherent, but can change according to his worldview, so it may actually make him a bit more sane, but that's very unlikely. The thing that would be edited would be the swords not the world itself, and the swords can be edited and changed without severely harming Shirou or changing him, though the world may be influenced by the arrival of the Forge. Maybe granting UBW a night sky filled with the gained constellations, but I'm not sure that the change would be drastic
 
Daym said:
What I am a bit confused by is the still present fear of the Simurgh. I know that her visiting would be a huge problem for Brockton Bay and its population, but as far as I know the Simurgh relies on the presence of other tinkers to develop annihilation equipment/tinker tech (the only thing Joe has to fear personally). Or am I just misinterpreting the whole passage and he just doesn't want to add another problem to his list of problems (Dragons Mastering, Taylors Destiny, Marchs Threat, the Undersiders Boss, the PRTs incompentent Reactions, the Villain Power Vacuum, Taylors 'Mission' ...... I think I just answered my own question).
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I think there's also the fact that he's used to fear her. His entire life he was taught that Endbringers are most dangerous things ever. That's not easy to break lifelong beliefs. And even harder - to convince your subconscious to change its mind and believe in a new reality.
Third part - he doesn't know, unlike us, about the capabilities of the Endbringers. So, he can't be sure when he will have enough firepower to reliably kill them.
 
Koraan said:
I think there's also the fact that he's used to fear her. His entire life he was taught that Endbringers are most dangerous things ever. That's not easy to break lifelong beliefs. And even harder - to convince your subconscious to change its mind and believe in a new reality.
Third part - he doesn't know, unlike us, about the capabilities of the Endbringers. So, he can't be sure when he will have enough firepower to reliably kill them.
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And fourth part, or maybe three point five part, Ziz-bombings are known, and real, and the exact nature of how it happens is unknown. And the last thing Joe wants, -especially- with the Forge, is to become a Mannequine 2.Spiral. So keeping the Ziz away for as long as possible is always the best policy until you can be absolutely, positively, definitely, thousand twenty spirals sure you can, you know, shoot her down before you get ziz-bombed.

Edit: Oh! And fourth/fifth part, his Passenger made it perfectly kill cutting down EB's before doing -something- was a very bad idea.
 
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