Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

[Koraan]

Telepresence might work, but yeah, I suspect he's going to have to spend increasing amounts of time on mitigation as he gets more visually distinctive.

Click to shrink...

The main problem isn't even his appearance. Now he have posing power and innuendo power. And more fiat backed perks that will affect his actions.
He already struggled to hide how quick he can repair something. And cleaning effect of his repair. And... I think you got the point.

 

[RegiDelta]

Apeiron had assisted with that dress. It was as clear as Garment's workmanship on the tinker's costume. The stylistic difference between items the tinker made personally, the hairpin jumped into his mind, and those with Garment's influence, was obvious to anyone who looked. Garment had found a tinker patron before the Protectorate

Click to shrink...

As you can see Accord already knows Garment is associated with Apeiron. So yes someone already knows they are connected. Accord may have also told his ambassadors of there association.

Considering the sheer amount of frame-by-frame scrutiny that all of Apeiron's appearances must have gone through, and Garment's undamaged presence in his earlier outings, I'm genuinely surprised that no-one seems to have thought of the connection.

Click to shrink...

 

[readerdreamer]

The main problem isn't even his appearance. Now he have posing power and innuendo power. And more fiat backed perks that will afect his actions.
He already struggled to hide how quick he can repair something. And cleaning effect of his repair. And... I think you got the point.

Click to shrink...

The answer is simple:

Aisha: "Wow, Joe, nobody's been looking at you weird despite all of your powers!"

Joe: "Your power gave me the idea. You see, Aisha, I may not be able to hide my perks even if I tried, but as long as I make it so nobody can find it in themselves to see me as anything but ordinary, my secret identity is safe. So, I made myself a crown that gives me a powerful Stranger ability that's a mix between yours and Nice Guy's powers."

Aisha: *stares up to Crowned Titan Joe towering over all of Brockton Bay covered with incandescent bling and blazing divinity*

Aisha: "...yep. This is fine."

 

[Cosmic]

So, odds/timeline somebody puts the Garment Aperion connection in the near future since he was wearing the gloves during the epic showdown, and his ruined costume was self animating?

Click to shrink...

I had asked Lord this, here's the Word of God:
"Garment has never demonstrated shapeshifting. It is also not clear that the gloves are her focus rather than some combination of the clothing she uses. People actually aren't sure of a lot of details about Garment and the idea that she's just a pair of gloves telekinetically controlling everything else is kind of out there. It's easier for people to assume there is something in the dress, particularly with how expressive she can be. As such, the fact that Apeiron has white gloves might be seen as a nod to Garment, but the idea that he's wearing Garment into battel is not going to be widely entertained."

 

[Subrosian_Smithy]

Joe: "Your power gave me the idea. You see, Aisha, I may not be able to hide my perks even if I tried, but as long as I make it so nobody can find it in themselves to see me as anything but ordinary, my secret identity is safe. So, I made myself a crown that gives me a powerful Stranger ability that's a mix between yours and Nice Guy's powers."

Aisha: *stares up to Crowned Titan Joe towering over all of Brockton Bay covered with incandescent bling and blazing divinity*

Click to shrink...

"Another one, eh? Only in Brockton Bay."

"You think there's something in the water?"

"Almost certainly."

 

[andreykl]

Well, for one, unless he'll figure out really good disguise, his civilian identity will be out after at most a half of hour after he'll leave his workshop. And even a good disguise can only delay it for so much time, because of all his perks.

Click to shrink...

Isn't disguise made by him is 'supernatural' and 'master level' by definition? So far the problem was not disguise, but his 'acting' skill.

That's why there's a concept of a "mission kill". Its possible to end the usefulness of a piece of equipment without actually destroying it.

Click to shrink...

I wonder, can Joe 'mission kill' an endbringer by draining all of the reserve energy or mass? Like: extend so much energy fighting that they go 'mission over allotted energy budget => withdrawing'.
It's Apeiron we are talking about so a lot of options are suddenly possible. Like a fog-like battleship from nanites that repairs itself and effectively ties leviathan in combat forever.
Endbringers are sort of magi-tech drones (treated by CF as magic), so there are couple ways Joe can interfere with an endbringer itself.

 

[Mesaphrom]

Gym Guys Talk
Doug: "Okay, who want to be the one to tell him?"
*a chorus of not its*

Doug: "Come on, guys! I know he's new, but Joe's practically one of us at this point! We have to tell him that we know about it!"

Vince: "Look, Doug, do you really want to risk him leaving?"

Doug: "But Vince! You've seen him! The way he obviously rewired the place, how he fixed the generator and that car, and his muscle tone! I don't know how he thought that none of us would notice him bulking up when he was practically a noodle when he first came in! He's so unsubtle that it's painful to watch! Do you guys really want it in your conscience when the inevitable happens and someone from outside the gym notices that we have motherfucking Apeiron?"

Theo: "He's right, guys. I've been here for only a week and I already found it out for myself."

Vince: "Alright, Doug, Theo, you both have very good points. However, you've seen him, right? And how Joe's actually a lot more skittish than his public appearances might suggest, right? Do you both really want him to realize that we've been staring up that ass of his for weeks now because of all the poses he has been doing?"

Doug/Theo: "..."

Vince: "Of course not. That's Brockton Bay's ass, right there. You tantalize it. You gaze at it from afar. And most of all, you don't point out that you can recognize that same ass on the cape that has outright overthrown everything in Brockton Bay in the few weeks he has been active so far. Because knowing Joe, knowing Apeiron, he might do something ridiculous about it like making duplicates of himself to force an alibi for himself or something."

Doug: "...so what do you suggest we do then, Vince?"

Vince: "Simple. We hide the fact that we know, and most of all, we hide the fact that we also know what's going on with Aisha. I don't know how Mr. Laborn hasn't noticed his daughter running around in costume with Joe yet, but between Apeiron and an overprotective father, I'd rather not see the fireworks of that particular confrontation."

Theo: "And in the meantime, we take as many covert pictures of Joe as possible? For when the inevitable reveal happens?"

Vince: "Yes."

Click to shrink...

I mean....

Tv Commercial: Do you want to be as jacked as Apeiron? Of course you do! And now with our Apeiron approved [Apeiro Course] we can guarantee you can too in, not 3, not 2, but in 1 month!

It doesn't help that the everything Garment does with Joe can be explained away as just... well, Apeiron being Apeiron. Self repairing costume? Clearly even when his technology goes obsolete in the matter of days, Apeiron is picky enough to go for self-repairs. Cape moves on its own? This is the guy who is dramatic as all hell, why won't he have a cape like that? Impossibly white gloves? Clearly his hands are too good for dirt that even his gloves are too good for it.

Click to shrink...

.....

Tv Commercial: Tired of you pristine white clothes turning yellow and gray after a couple of runs on the wash? You see the exorbitant prices of the dry wash and want to scream no more? We at Apeiron Science have the solution! With our new [Dirt-No-More] formula you can say good ridance to all your white clothes problems!*

*Apeiron Science will not be responsible for faded color of colored clothes.

EDIT:I so want a "Apeiron Science is Aperture meets Black Mesa" PHO meme thread now....

 

[gthesob]

Telepresence might work, but yeah, I suspect he's going to have to spend increasing amounts of time on mitigation as he gets more visually distinctive.

Click to shrink...

Until he gets something that makes it easy.

I'm genuinely surprised that no-one seems to have thought of the connection

Click to shrink...

We only know of Accord so far, but it's not unreasonable to believe there are more off screen. Few, but some. There are plenty of Void Cowboys out there.

 

[Mesaphrom]

Until he gets something that makes it easy.

We only know of Accord so far, but it's not unreasonable to believe there are more off screen. Few, but some. There are plenty of Void Cowboys out there.

Click to shrink...

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if another Thinker or similar nutcase realized it, but as Lord said it's not something they would usually accept and would probably think of it as a false positive or that they need their meds. "Equipable ally" isn't something you would normally think, even in a place like Bet, and while GG have shown she can fight, her more esoteric qualities aren't even in concideration. At most I would say they think her purse is Tinkertech. It's been only about a week since her debut after all, and BB's crazyness is more important than what the 'clothes Cape' can and can't do.

 

[KnightofRoyalty]

I want to bring something here in the forums that we have been discussing for a bit on discord.

In a wog I asked Lord if spiral is going to be nerfed due to jumpchain rules but this is what he said:

"Okay, everyone is reading the 'limits' on spiral energy backwards. The Jump says that without taking the endgame scenario you can't go beyond the levels of spiral energy seen in the beastman arc. That can be read as it being limited, but spiral energy doesn't do limits. Thus you can totally go beyond the levels of the beastman arc up to tunnels in space and probability alteration. It's just if you do you are effectively choosing to engage the Gurren Lagann Optional Endgame Scenario, so have fun with that."

So basically joe wont have his spiral limited to just the capabilities of the first season (beastman arc) but if he goes beyond those abilities it triggers the optional endgame scenario.

The endgame scenario is basically the anti spiral come knocking in the universe and if you don't know about gurren laggan than the anti spiral make the entities look like babies and the reason they don't go all out is to bring as much despair as possible to spiral beings (and with this setting is not such a hard thing to do to be honest)

The endgame starts would start with the anti spiral messenger meeting Joe and he would have three options to complete the endgame:

1.-Side with the anti spiral, pulling a lord genome and force all of humanity underground forever

2.- Fight against the Anti-spiral and defeat them

3.- Somehow find a diplomatic way for the two species to co-exist without needing to subjugate or destroy the other

Most likely lord is not going to go for this endgame options or the entities and scion would be sidelined hard and the bonus rewards are so OP (anti spiral tech, full on powered spiral or both depending on the route) that any future conflict is outright gone but I will admit that I would be curious in seeing lord writing in all of Humanity's reaction to an alien race wanting to destroy all of them and especially with cauldron shitting their pants over them and Joe trying to pull an impossible win

What do you think of a chance in this endgame scenario?

 

[TitanFrost]

bring as much despair as possible to spiral beings

Click to shrink...

Side with the anti spiral, pulling a lord genome and force all of humanity underground forever

Click to shrink...

Thinking about it, I actually see no reason for the Anti-Spiral to want to do this. Well, aside from it being a fiat enforced endgame challenge, but if this were just a regular crossover scenario I'd see things playing out something like this:

1. It is I, the Anti-Spiral. I have come to this new universe to put an end to the proliferation of Spiral Power and prevent the Spiral Nemesis.

2. Hmm, looks like some kind of metaphysical forge introduced spiral energy to this universe. I can't seem to effect it directly, so I'll put that issue on the back-burner for now. It's only empowered a single person, who was only able to further empower one other person (plus maybe a Cat if Joe rolled that Monster Hunter perk at this point). I'll just kill them... and yep, now there's no natural way for Spiral Power to be produced in this universe. I'll just keep an eye out in case that changes again.

3. Wow though, this is quite a nice universe actually now that I'm getting a chance to look at it. No amount of hot-blooded yelling could possibly subvert the physical laws of the universe around here, and everyone's already depressed without me having to do anything. Hell yeah. There's just one issue...

4. These "Entities" are worse than the Spiral Nemesis! At least that would destroy my universe and kill everyone in it. If the Entities succeed at their goal of ending entropy in this universe all of reality will be transformed into an endless, infinite feeding frenzy. There will be no life or death; only a meaningless, roiling mass of space cancer stretching on forever. I must go to war against this!

5. First I'll learn what I can from this crippled entity on Earth Bet and destroy every trace of it afterwards. Now I will fuck off into space probably never to return to this random speck of rock amongst the stars. Maybe. Still gonna keep an eye out for any other Spiral outbreaks, keep an eye on what that Forge is doing, etc. Okay bye.

 

[Talltree]

Thinking about it, I actually see no reason for the Anti-Spiral to want to do this. Well, aside from it being a fiat enforced endgame challenge, but if this were just a regular crossover scenario I'd see things playing out something like this:

1. It is I, the Anti-Spiral. I have come to this new universe to put an end to the proliferation of Spiral Power and prevent the Spiral Nemesis.

2. Hmm, looks like some kind of metaphysical forge introduced spiral energy to this universe. I can't seem to effect it directly, so I'll put that issue on the back-burner for now. It's only empowered a single person, who was only able to further empower one other person (plus maybe a Cat if Joe rolled that Monster Hunter perk at this point). I'll just kill them... and yep, now there's no natural way for Spiral Power to be produced in this universe. I'll just keep an eye out in case that changes again.

3. Wow though, this is quite a nice universe actually now that I'm getting a chance to look at it. No amount of hot-blooded yelling could possibly subvert the physical laws of the universe around here, and everyone's already depressed without me having to do anything. Hell yeah. There's just one issue...

4. These "Entities" are worse than the Spiral Nemesis! At least that would destroy my universe and kill everyone in it. If the Entities succeed at their goal of ending entropy in this universe all of reality will be transformed into an endless, infinite feeding frenzy. There will be no life or death; only a meaningless, roiling mass of space cancer stretching on forever. I must go to war against this!

5. First I'll learn what I can from this crippled entity on Earth Bet and destroy every trace of it afterwards. Now I will fuck off into space probably never to return to this random speck of rock amongst the stars. Maybe. Still gonna keep an eye out for any other Spiral outbreaks, keep an eye on what that Forge is doing, etc. Okay bye.

Click to shrink...

yes but in monotone

 

[KnightofRoyalty]

Snip

Click to shrink...

I will agree that since this is worm were talking about the number of spiral users would be incredibly low and make the anti spirals job incredibly easier, in fact I'm pretty sure a few muggans would be enough to wipe out most countries in worm, but the anti spiral might not take chances, just having the slight chance of one spiral user spreading it could be enough push for them to kill the whole species since in the series all it took was just to have 1 million people in the surface.

Also saying anti spiral going to "war" with entities is very generous to the entities, Anti spirals completely wrecks the entities if they go al out. Sting their ultimate weapon against themselves is nothing compared anti spirals equivalent infinity big bang storm which through 10 times the amount of universes and firepower that sting has.

 

[TitanFrost]

Just a few comments:

I will agree that since this is worm were talking about the number of spiral users would be incredibly low and make the anti spirals job incredibly easier

Click to shrink...

"Incredibly low" feels like an overstatement. There are no Spiral Users in the Worm universe except for Joe, someone Joe picks, and maybe a cat companion. The Anti-Spiral is basically a god that has studied the nature of Spiral Power extensively to create countermeasures. I feel like they would be pretty easily able to tell that every other living being aside from those three are completely dead on the spiral energy scale.

just having the slight chance of one spiral user spreading it could be enough push for them to kill the whole species since in the series all it took was just to have 1 million people in the surface.

Click to shrink...

That one spiral user can only spread it to one person, but sure, let's say Joe goes row row fight the power and ignores that limit. He's still the only source of spiral power in a universe that does not otherwise support its existence. If Joe were killed (along with anyone else empowered) and the Forge didn't intercede again it would be exceedingly odd for Spiral Power to continue to exist in any capacity.

In fact, now that I think about it, wouldn't the Anti-Spiral would be especially interested in that lack of Spiral potential? It was willing to kill all the humans, but that was never its first resort. It's holding back the Spiral Nemesis so that the universe doesn't go kablooey and kill every species, after all. If it was able to understand why the Worm universe works the way it does, maybe it would be able to change the functions of its own universe to eliminate Spiral Power on a fundamental level. Something that I imagine it can do as the god-level entity it is.

Now, that isn't to say that I don't see the inevitable anime plot unfolding where Simon goes fuck that, keeps his spiral power anyway, and then beats the shit out of the anti-spiral like in canon. But that's a different sort of beast than anyone in the Worm universe spontaneously developing Spiral Abilities.

 

[TypoNinja]

The way I addressed crossover issues like this is to first decide what I want to be possible.

Powers from another universe don't have to be 100% portable. It may be that people in this universe lack some key potential that prevents them from realizing the other universe power, or this universes power-base interferes with that one.

There's options other than full integration. Each side keeps only its own powers, people get one or the other power set but not both, anybody could learn if only they knew, its a full spectrum. You could even go full 'because I said so' BS on it and say the power functions as if you had ability from X universe, but it isn't actually that to avoid complications that would be a pain.

I decided it based on what I wanted the powers to be. My newcomers are supposed to be outsiders, strange and mysterious. So nobody but them have their power because giving them something in common with the locals would undermine the 'strange and unknowable' factor.

 

[TitanFrost]

The way I addressed crossover issues like this is to first decide what I want to be possible.

Powers from another universe don't have to be 100% portable. It may be that people in this universe lack some key potential that prevents them from realizing the other universe power, or this universes power-base interferes with that one.

There's options other than full integration. Each side keeps only its own powers, people get one or the other power set but not both, anybody could learn if only they knew, its a full spectrum. You could even go full 'because I said so' BS on it and say the power functions as if you had ability from X universe, but it isn't actually that to avoid complications that would be a pain.

I decided it based on what I wanted the powers to be. My newcomers are supposed to be outsiders, strange and mysterious. So nobody but them have their power because giving them something in common with the locals would undermine the 'strange and unknowable' factor.

Click to shrink...

The thing is, we already know how crossover elements work in regard to this fic. They work in the Worm universe because the Forge makes it so they work. That's why the only way certain things like FMA alchemy can spread is through the explicit function of the related perk.

In regard to the endgame Gurren Lagan scenario, I'm sure the Forge would support the existence of the Anti-Spiral the same way it does everything else. Though with the Anti-Spiral being the god-like entity it is, I wouldn't be surprised if it figured out how to exist on its own eventually.

 

[TypoNinja]

In regard to the endgame Gurren Lagan scenario, I'm sure the Forge would support the existence of the Anti-Spiral the same way it does everything else.

Click to shrink...

Why?

The perks so far have been un-connected power and technology and knowledge. The Librarium didn't come with a chaos demon. The Life Fibers didn't come with the rest of the species, the Cybertron knowledge didn't come with a pack of angry Decepticons. Unicron isn't showing up to nom the moon. He's literally a greek god, but none of the rest of that is here.

He's not automatically inheriting the villains of every setting were swiping powers from, why would this be any different?

 

[TitanFrost]

Why?

The perks so far have been un-connected power and technology and knowledge. The Librarium didn't come with a chaos demon. The Life Fibers didn't come with the rest of the species, the Cybertron knowledge didn't come with a pack of angry Decepticons. Unicron isn't showing up to nom the moon. He's literally a greek god, but none of the rest of that is here.

He's not automatically inheriting the villains of every setting were swiping powers from, why would this be any different?

Click to shrink...

Because of this:

I want to bring something here in the forums that we have been discussing for a bit on discord.

In a wog I asked Lord if spiral is going to be nerfed due to jumpchain rules but this is what he said:

"Okay, everyone is reading the 'limits' on spiral energy backwards. The Jump says that without taking the endgame scenario you can't go beyond the levels of spiral energy seen in the beastman arc. That can be read as it being limited, but spiral energy doesn't do limits. Thus you can totally go beyond the levels of the beastman arc up to tunnels in space and probability alteration. It's just if you do you are effectively choosing to engage the Gurren Lagann Optional Endgame Scenario, so have fun with that."

So basically joe wont have his spiral limited to just the capabilities of the first season (beastman arc) but if he goes beyond those abilities it triggers the optional endgame scenario.

The endgame scenario is basically the anti spiral come knocking in the universe and if you don't know about gurren laggan than the anti spiral make the entities look like babies and the reason they don't go all out is to bring as much despair as possible to spiral beings (and with this setting is not such a hard thing to do to be honest)

The endgame starts would start with the anti spiral messenger meeting Joe and he would have three options to complete the endgame:

1.-Side with the anti spiral, pulling a lord genome and force all of humanity underground forever

2.- Fight against the Anti-spiral and defeat them

3.- Somehow find a diplomatic way for the two species to co-exist without needing to subjugate or destroy the other

Most likely lord is not going to go for this endgame options or the entities and scion would be sidelined hard and the bonus rewards are so OP (anti spiral tech, full on powered spiral or both depending on the route) that any future conflict is outright gone but I will admit that I would be curious in seeing lord writing in all of Humanity's reaction to an alien race wanting to destroy all of them and especially with cauldron shitting their pants over them and Joe trying to pull an impossible win

What do you think of a chance in this endgame scenario?

Click to shrink...

Nothing for me to argue here really. This is just how the author is doing things for Spiral Power.

 

[Subrosian_Smithy]

Why?

The perks so far have been un-connected power and technology and knowledge. The Librarium didn't come with a chaos demon. The Life Fibers didn't come with the rest of the species, the Cybertron knowledge didn't come with a pack of angry Decepticons. Unicron isn't showing up to nom the moon. He's literally a greek god, but none of the rest of that is here.

He's not automatically inheriting the villains of every setting were swiping powers from, why would this be any different?

Click to shrink...

Because Gurren Lagann is a specific jump, and it gets its own ruling from the author.

But seriously, Spiral Power is the one powerset in the forge where it would be perfectly thematic to the original setting for it to up and import an antagonist. "Sure, you can break the laws of physics limits of the jump with sheer heroic willpower! But if you do, you have to confront the spiral nemesis endjump scenario."

Spiral Power is unlimited power with a "yes, and..." clause attached.

 

[TypoNinja]

Because of this:

Nothing for me to argue here really. This is just how the author is doing things for Spiral Power.

Click to shrink...

Oh. I somehow missed that.

Not sure how....

 

[readerdreamer]

The funny thing is, people are still forgetting that even with Spiral Power, Joe will first have to go through some intense Simon-level character development to be able to wield it beyond some minor boosts because, really, if Joe's having troubles wielding Aura as it is, he's certainly not ready for Spiral Energy.

Joe: "I just gained ultimate unlimited power. All I need to use it is to just be constantly filled with determination and willpower to achieve whatever I want, no matter what is in my way. Good thing I have that and not a collection of self-esteem problems compounded by my issues surrounding family, love, and public attention!"

 

[TypoNinja]

Joe: "I just gained ultimate unlimited power. All I need to use it is to just be constantly filled with determination and willpower to achieve whatever I want, no matter what is in my way. Good thing I have that and not a collection of self-esteem problems compounded by my issues surrounding family, love, and public attention!"

Click to shrink...

Heh. Self limiting anti-Armageddon safety's on the doomsday power, how convenient.

 

[TitanFrost]

Joe: "I just gained ultimate unlimited power. All I need to use it is to just be constantly filled with determination and willpower to achieve whatever I want, no matter what is in my way. Good thing I have that and not a collection of self-esteem problems compounded by my issues surrounding family, love, and public attention!"

Click to shrink...

Years after the end of this story, when life on Earth Bet has been totally transformed by Joe's technology, he will think to himself the following:

"You know, I think I'm finally feeling confident in myself."

And then the Anti-Spirals attacked.

 

[Carrnage]

The funny thing is, people are still forgetting that even with Spiral Power, Joe will first have to go through some intense Simon-level character development to be able to wield it beyond some minor boosts because, really, if Joe's having troubles wielding Aura as it is, he's certainly not ready for Spiral Energy.

Joe: "I just gained ultimate unlimited power. All I need to use it is to just be constantly filled with determination and willpower to achieve whatever I want, no matter what is in my way. Good thing I have that and not a collection of self-esteem problems compounded by my issues surrounding family, love, and public attention!"

Click to shrink...

also the clones likely have a limited amount of spiral energy as temporary duplicates.

 

[Mesaphrom]

Heh. Self limiting anti-Armageddon safety's on the doomsday power, how convenient.

Click to shrink...

Joe really is the Matrix's dad, isn't he?

Funny thing I remembered about the SP lately, one of the characters using it actually emulated Sting (with missiles) during a fight, targeting 'all time and paralels' where the Anti-Spiral mech was. I mean, he was inside a mech, but it was possible becauae of SP.