Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

[Nimble Flourish]

Never ever liked it when authors handle Emma like this. As a person who has a mental break that went unchecked for about 12 years before I got help (hurting other people emotionally, physically, and mentally) and that's without a continuous destruction influence like Sophia, that what I needed was help. Not a criminal record that would be almost guaranteed set me up for failure later on in my life.

Speaking from experience, Emma is completely blameless in this situation. The blame lies first on Alan, and second on Sophia ( I can't remember if it's canon or not that Alan and Emma never told the rest of their family) Taking it to court is possibly the stupidest thing you could do here considering both Taylor and Emma are victims. Followed closely by cutting ties entirely even after the person has stabilized. Doubly so if you had a positive/strong relationship with the person before their trauma I.e. Emma and Taylor, because that person is still inside and just needs help coming out.

And trust me, feelings of being abandoned DO NOT help with getting the good person to resurface. Quite the opposite

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Nah, Emma needs this, she needs to be taught about boundaries. The school spoiled her and made her think that consequences were for other people and her parents did the same. At this point a criminal record is probably the only wake up call she can get given her enabling environment.

 

[arromdee]

Never ever liked it when authors handle Emma like this. As a person who has a mental break that went unchecked for about 12 years before I got help (hurting other people emotionally, physically, and mentally) and that's without a continuous destruction influence like Sophia, that what I needed was help. Not a criminal record that would be almost guaranteed set me up for failure later on in my life.

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Jack Slash became Jack Slash because of abuse by his parents (locking him up and telling him that the world was destroyed). He literally had a mental break because of abuse, which led him to become a villain that hurts other people, just like Emma. Do you have this reaction to stories where Jack Slash is killed?

 

[Graviator]

Vista is the strongest example people think of when it comes to this, but you see flavors of it with Wards in general, because people in the Wards not on probation want to be Heroes, meaning they want what amounts to that exploitation and danger. Their opinion on these matters is not to be relied upon because their judgement is compromised in the view of a society who believes that Endbringers and Slaughterhouse Nine or no, children should be allowed to be children.

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This is a general issue of The Man whenever The Man says he's making decisions in your interest. Namely, whoever's in charge of deciding what your interests should be might have a radically different point of view from you. This isn't just about children, and when applied to adults, it rankles them because they're being treated like children. There's a parallel here with Joe's issues with his family - but while Vista is a child complaining that the adults won't take her seriously, Joe is an adult whose family refuses to take his assertions of his own interests seriously as though he were still a small child.

Actually, this motif was illuminated by a C.S. Lewis quote earlier in the story:

Aisha nodded slightly at that, and it was the full extent I remembered, but Survey continued.

"They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

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Vista is a child, but not an infant, and the Youth Guard's apparent refusal to listen to her very real problems does them no credit.

 

[Iridesce]

Oh that's simple just have Survey's ridiculously beautiful for a lawyer civilian guise fill in for the missing spot.

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Survey is too tall I believe. The real solution is either Tetra or Aisha. They are both incredibly beautiful and I believe short.

 

[Introverted]

Vista is a child, but not an infant, and the Youth Guard's apparent refusal to listen to her very real problems does them no credit.

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Ok what exactly is Vista's real problems which the Youth Guard does not listen too?

 

[readerdreamer]

Vista is a child, but not an infant, and the Youth Guard's apparent refusal to listen to her very real problems does them no credit.

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To be fair for them, Vista makes no mention of her real problems. She rages against their unwillingness to throw her into combat, true, but that is only her coping mechanism for her actual issues, which is her terrible relationship with her parents and her home situation. The onus of figuring that out should've been on the PRT to realize why Vista is happier in the Wards HQ than at home, but the Youth Guard basically has to start from scratch on basically most of the Wards in Brockton Bay.

 

[verycoolname]

Ok what exactly is Vista's real problems which the Youth Guard does not listen too?

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Her parents hate each other. They are constantly fighting, and tend to fight over Missy rather than actually act as parents. The Youth Guard's mission to protect the Wards from being exploited by the PRT kind of messed up, because it keeps the PRT or the CPS from getting her out of a toxic environment.

Keep in mind she triggered trying to get away from her parent's fight, and now she's trapped with them, since they won't get a divorce and risk losing control over her.

 

[Crake]

Keep in mind the context of my post was framed neutrally, neither favoring one side or the other with regard to the treatment of the Wards, other than just now expressing my personal opinion that the reality of the situation they live in should be balanced with the needs of the people in question.

Like there's an incentive for the PRT to just ignore or kick the can down the road when it comes to dealing with the traumas of various Parahumans, who invariably seem to either be completely unstable but in a way that conforms to the Cycle and how it will utilize certain powers to 'balance', make sure things never get too stable, etc.

And then there are other Parahumans who definitely aren't by any definition completely 'stable', but usually have the cracks papered over or in some cases glued together, allowing them to perform or put up a show of professionalism, or cling to it as away to deal with their other problems. But then when things come crashing down and their coping mechanisms can no longer support the weight of the various problems they're currently dealing with, usually it flies apart as explosively as possible.

Something like the Youth Guard and the PRT mission-driven focus on keeping society semi-functional should really come together and work at trying to make sure the various Wards and even Protectorate Heroes have actual functional support structures and things to fall back on when their current coping strategies stop working. The rotating of therapists definitely doesn't help, since most of them could use therapy.

And as someone pointed out, the Youth Guard contingent working through things in Brockton right now have basically been kept out of Piggot's business for who knows how long, and for the most part are working on establishing relationships with the kids and playing catch-up on the many, many, many infractions, not just ones recently identified. Ones from years ago.

In the PRT Quest and some other fics this organization is generally just an obstructive, overtly corrupt presence who seemingly punishes the kids for being part of the Wards program, some of which are more problematic and overtly involved with law enforcement activities in some cities than others, maybe out of some misguided sense that being obstructive will convince parents to be more involved and press the PRT to keep them out of danger, otherwise concerned that there's not sufficient enough checks or balances to prevent Protectorate branches from endangering their charges.

This is probably more or less true depending on the location, the people involved and what other infractions took place in the past preceding this adversarial relationship. If the Youth Guard was actively getting in the way of society functioning it probably would have been axed by Cauldron already. What I guess is that they actually act as sort of a canary in the coal mine for public sentiment.

If the groups the Youth Guard receives donations from (presumably local constituents or other organizations corporate, non-profit, or otherwise) think the treatment of child heroes is becoming problematic in a city, there's got to be some performative activist route people can go for instead of lobbying somewhere useful. The Youth Guard might be very well funded specifically because it's a group that directly influences the PRT on one niche issue.

I imagine Cauldron's concern was what happens if lobbyists start casting a wider net, and even more restrictive laws get placed on Parahumans than are already in place. You can surmise that's why as much unconstitutional stuff happens as currently does, because nothing has to hold together or last indefinitely, just 'long enough'.

But just because Cauldron doesn't really care about the long-term consequences of the duct tape approach doesn't mean the people involved aren't mostly trying to act in good faith and with the best intentions in mind. The problem is that the consequences for "mildly getting it wrong" are much greater because you don't want to upset the person with reality-warping powers generally, not helped by how invested Cauldron was in making Capes seem 'safer' than they actually are in reality.

Tl;Dr -- an organization like the Youth Guard, Protectorate, or PRT can't functionally exist without, in the aggregate, mostly being competent and capable of their mission statement, at least in the short term. The bad interactions and incidents stand out so much more because the consequences are disproportionate for what abuses of authority or miscommunications can be compared to ordinary ones in situations that don't involve Parahumans. So we make them out to be much worse than they actually are.

 

[Introverted]

Her parents hate each other. They are constantly fighting, and tend to fight over Missy rather than actually act as parents. The Youth Guard's mission to protect the Wards from being exploited by the PRT kind of messed up, because it keeps the PRT or the CPS from getting her out of a toxic environment.

Keep in mind she triggered trying to get away from her parent's fight, and now she's trapped with them, since they won't get a divorce and risk losing control over her.

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...they are divorced and her staying with them was a product of the fcked up legal settlement. The Youth Guard have absolutely nothing to do with this problem and may even be unaware of it.

Heck the Youth Guard investigations may actually lead to her getting away from her family if they cross check her situation. Not sure about the CPS

 

[readerdreamer]

Her parents hate each other. They are constantly fighting, and tend to fight over Missy rather than actually act as parents. The Youth Guard's mission to protect the Wards from being exploited by the PRT kind of messed up, because it keeps the PRT or the CPS from getting her out of a toxic environment.

Keep in mind she triggered trying to get away from her parent's fight, and now she's trapped with them, since they won't get a divorce and risk losing control over her.

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That implies that the PRT was actually working to fix the issue though, which they weren't. The entirety of Vista's career and nothing has changed since her Trigger since Vista keeps it secret and the Brockton PRT is too busy putting out fires to look at the gift horse's mouth as to why Vista is like that. So if anything, they were unwittingly taking advantage of Vista's problems to get themselves a powerful Shaker that actively wants to be part of the Wards team.

 

[Kurohime]

Jack Slash became Jack Slash because of abuse by his parents (locking him up and telling him that the world was destroyed). He literally had a mental break because of abuse, which led him to become a villain that hurts other people, just like Emma. Do you have this reaction to stories where Jack Slash is killed?

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Actually no. Because there is a severe difference in the severity of their actions, as well as there being no way for jack to recover because there is no one willing to do so, and that's not even getting to the difference between parahuman and baseline psychology.

Emma is still young, and is surrounded by people who care for her (Not Sophia), even Alan in his misguided way was trying to help her by not bringing up trauma to the surface. Emma has, and always had had the conditions to heal. It's a failing of alans to not even let Zoe and Anne know about her trauma, because I doubt she would have turned out the way she did it there was ANY support structure there to support her.

Again, NOT Sophia! A negative support structure (I.e. the only kind Emma has) is arguably far worse than no structure and all

 

[Norr]

Because there is a severe difference in the severity of their actions

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I agree. I'd like to callback to some earlier discussions as well.
One of the problems here is the 'paying it forward' model, as someone said earlier, is that there is a whole chain of perpetrators who makes victims who becomes perpetrators.

The first step is to remove the perpetrator (as the police just did with Emma) to prevent the chain from continuing. After that is done, treat the victim (Emma is also a victim here, and she is not too far gone to recover).

I'd also like to note that in canon Taylor went on to use bullying techniques both for her warlord phase as well as during Gold morning (at least to end it). She has yet to become a perpetrator (or is she already? I'm remembering Aegislash.) And she needs treatment as well to prevent her from continuing the cycle.

The point here is that different situations require defferent responses. Jack is a victim, but he's gone too far as a perpetrator for any hope of recovery. Bonesaw is a victim, and can recover in the right situation, but only provided she survives being prevented from victimising others.

These are extreme cases and require extreme responses.

Emma is not an extreme case.
Just getting her in the system and put through evaluation is enough to prevent further victimising, and to put her on the road to recovery. This won't unburn any bridges between her and her victim, but she can lead a normal-ish life yet.

Proportional response is key here.
There is a lot of people in Worm that needs to be removed from the cycle of victim-to-perpetrator, and almost as many who might be able to recover from it, despite having done more-or-less despicable things.

 

[readerdreamer]

Again, NOT Sophia! A negative support structure (I.e. the only kind Emma has) is arguably far worse than no structure and all

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I agree, vehemently. A lack of support structure is better than a negative one. You can remedy a lack by looking for one - this is exemplified by Joe who actively looked for a support structure before and after his Trigger. A negative support structure is no support, but rather a sinkhole that would only make things actively worse.

 

[Flufferton]

Emma is not an extreme case.

Proportional response is key here.

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I agree that proportional is key, and that with this face scratch incident taken in isolation Emma doesn't seem to be an extreme case. That however requires one to ignore the however, was it a year or so(?), long harassment and bullying campaign that reached its pinnacle in the locker incident. An incident that can be rightfully argued to not only be attempted murder, but also conspiracy to commit attempted murder. Yes, they are teens, but even teens, unless particularly dumb and stupid or having very absent parents and science teachers, know how dangerous cleaning chemicals and biological waste is.

This is very much an extreme case and throwing the book at Emma and the rest of the trio is a very proportionate response. In addition, by not doing so because she is a 'victim' would only teach she can escape punishment from her actions by playing the victim card.

Finally, it's unlikely she'll get a criminal record. She is a minor and would be tried as such, meaning the worst she will get is juvie for a time and if her circumstances come to light, therapy and a shorter if not entirely suspended juvie sentence that would then be sealed upon her 18th birthday. The only way for her to get a criminal record that people seem to think she will get is if she gets tried as an adult and that usually requires something thoroughly horrific to be done.

Of course a ward involvement in the harassment campaign will complicate matters. And that's assuming her father doesn't take a plea deal for a lighter sentence, and given the evidence that will come up, I could see him doing that. To throw Sophia under the bus to protect his little girl.

 

[Mr.unlucky]

seeing everyone defending Emma is showing how realistic it is for everyone in school to gang up on Taylor. even if Emma can be help and change for the better she'll go back to her old ways if she come across another shadow starker. (considering how corrupt the PRT is that's very likely to happened) Emma is not worth saving and it's clear she will become this like Piggot if she lives to adulthood but instead of hating cape's it will be everyone she think is 'weak'.

 

[Nimeroni]

Emma is not an extreme case.

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She tried to kill Taylor. And now to disfigurate her.

She's less bad than the S9, but she's still very, very bad. I have absolutely zero sympathy for her. May she rot in juvie.

 

[MDK]

Finally, it's unlikely she'll get a criminal record. She is a minor and would be tried as such, meaning the worst she will get is juvie for a time and if her circumstances come to light, therapy and a shorter if not entirely suspended juvie sentence that would then be sealed upon her 18th birthday. The only way for her to get a criminal record that people seem to think she will get is if she gets tried as an adult and that usually requires something thoroughly horrific to be done.

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If you're talking about the face scratching incident in isolation then you're likely right but if Emma ever has to stand trail for the entirety of her two year campaign of harassment, academic sabotage, (verbal) assault and let's not forget the attempted murder via biological weapon then she will be tried as adult.

 

[Iridesce]

I'm not sure if it came up earlier in the thread but I was thinking about Aisha and how she was thinking about how she doesn't any multitasking abilities like the rest of the forge. So I was thinking, is Lord going to remember how insane the mental amp Toaru espers experience is? Because they are processing everything related to their abilities manually. Level fives get especially ridiculous as we can see with Misaka, remember when she picks up all of those individual grains of iron sand? She has to calculate all of the movements and magnetic fields to move them with mental math. Really one of the best things about being a Toaru esper is probably not the ability itself but actually your new and improved mental processing speed and multitasking abilities. I'm not sure how far they go but they are pretty insane. So when Joe gets the ability to make espers and makes Aisha one I think that one of her final weaknesses will be overcome.

 

[Narsauce]

Snip.

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Aisha won't be able to get Esper powers until Joe gets A: Hard Science, the Raildex Perk that allows him to make Espers and B: The Magic of Science, a perk from the Witcher Jump that will allow Joe to Fiat resolve issues and incongruencies between magic and science. If Joe tries to give Aisha Esper stuff without the latter perk, the specific brand of Esper powers will react negatively to the "magic" of Aisha's Shard and probably kill her or something.

Regarding Raildex Espers, while they are good at multitasking, I believe that they're really only good in their specific field, due to how the AIM fields warp their perception of reality. Like, if I ask Misaka to read and sign a hundred reports in ten minutes, she wouldn't be able to, regardless of her ability to identify thousands of grains of iron in a pile of sand.

Onto the Emma discourse, I understand where both sides are coming from. Emma is ultimately the victim of Sophia as much as she is the ABB. I'd even throw Alan in there for not being a particularly good parent in that he didn't get Emma to therapy the moment he could. Emma desperately needs help, and I won't deny that if she did manage to get help, she'd likely have never been the bitch that caused Taylor's trigger, nore the one who just tried to disfigure Taylor because she told her the reason she's acting like this is gone and done.

All that said, Emma is in need of a reality check and needs to get comeuppance for all the shit she's put Taylor through. I'm not saying she shouldn't get a second chance, one given after serious therapy and such, but right now she needs to face the fact that she engaged in a harassment campaign for multiple years IIRC, which led to her shoving someone in a locker full of used tampons and refuse, an act which got a police investigation so it obviously wasn't a minor issue. While Emma may need "help," at this point, I don't think anyone is really worried about what she needs, and most people are rightfully worried about what Taylor needs.

 

[Iridesce]

Aisha won't be able to get Esper powers until Joe gets A: Hard Science, the Raildex Perk that allows him to make Espers and B: The Magic of Science, a perk from the Witcher Jump that will allow Joe to Fiat resolve issues and incongruencies between magic and science. If Joe tries to give Aisha Esper stuff without the latter perk, the specific brand of Esper powers will react negatively to the "magic" of Aisha's Shard and probably kill her or something.

Regarding Raildex Espers, while they are good at multitasking, I believe that they're really only good in their specific field, due to how the AIM fields warp their perception of reality. Like, if I ask Misaka to read and sign a hundred reports in ten minutes, she wouldn't be able to, regardless of her ability to identify thousands of grains of iron in a pile of sand.

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I know that he doesn't have the hard science perk needed to get and give out the Toaru esper powers. I was talking about when he gets it. I also thought that giving Aisha the esper powers would be safe as long as he gave her a key crest? Key crests makes abilities that would not be safe or safe with other abilities you have play nice.

For the mental abilities, I'm not sure on how clear it is on how wide reaching they are. We do know that the best schools with the best students have the best espers. In fact, being a great student seems to be directly connected to being a great esper. This also isn't just your a great esper so we are giving you better grades, no they are literally smarter. We do know that all of the good espers are amazing at math, even math unrelated to their abilities. We also know that basically the only reason the level upper worked or was an idea was because of how impressive even low level esper brains are. I honestly think that it would be weird if their expanded mental abilities were solely restricted to their powers, they might be specialized to an extent but they would still be better at all of it than a normal person. We also see espers use their abilities to do stuff that doesn't really seem related, such as Accelerator reprograming Last Order. While he did it through his power, I don't see how microscopic brain surgery/mental reprograming is really related to vectors other than the most vague sense. He might be able to control vectors on that small a scale but he still shouldn't know that much about brains or be able to understand brains like that. It's especially crazy because he learned it there while doing it, he had basically no experience doing this. While Accelerator is the most powerful esper I do think that it shows that they have at least some level of enhanced mental abilities.

 

[Flufferton]

If you're talking about the face scratching incident in isolation then you're likely right but if Emma ever has to stand trail for the entirety of her two year campaign of harassment, academic sabotage, (verbal) assault and let's not forget the attempted murder via biological weapon then she will be tried as adult.

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Good point. Add in the fact it's not just attempted murder but conspiracy to commit attempted murder and I can see the valid argument that can be made to charge her and the rest of the trio as adults. Assuming Alan doesn't take a plea deal to keep that from happening of course .

Speaking of conspiracy ...just how many of the student body were complicit in helping the trio corner Taylor to shove her in the locker? Cause that makes them accomplices and co-conspirators in addition to the staff who've actively attempted to cover everything up...

 

[Introverted]

Good point. Add in the fact it's not just attempted murder but conspiracy to commit attempted murder and I can see the valid argument that can be made to charge her and the rest of the trio as adults. Assuming Alan doesn't take a plea deal to keep that from happening of course .

Speaking of conspiracy ...just how many of the student body were complicit in helping the trio corner Taylor to shove her in the locker? Cause that makes them accomplices and co-conspirators in addition to the staff who've actively attempted to cover everything up...

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Probably her clique but don't expect much to happen to them chances are with the evidence in their phones only the main trio would get punished.

 

[IndigoPhoenix]

Speaking of conspiracy ...just how many of the student body were complicit in helping the trio corner Taylor to shove her in the locker?

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Probably depends on where the locker was located, cause everyone made an effort to ignore her being tortured in biological waste. Some corner of the school? Everyone who watched/had nearby lockers. Girls locker room? Every girl that had PE. The middle of the school? You could probably get away with charging everyone on campus as at least neglect, if not an accessory.

 

[Iridesce]

Probably her clique but don't expect much to happen to them chances are with the evidence in their phones only the main trio would get punished.

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I can't imagine that they would heavily punish all that many of the students anyway. As in, I don't see them going to juvi. Probably community service or something, fines and such. I just don't feel like a judge would want to put a large number of kids in juvy.

 

[Nimeroni]

I'd even throw Alan in there for not being a particularly good parent in that he didn't get Emma to therapy the moment he could.

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Pretty sure he did, but she quickly dropped from therapy. It's for the weak, you see.

(I'm not sure if it's canon or the kind of fanon that stays in your mind)

Probably depends on where the locker was located, cause everyone made an effort to ignore her being tortured in biological waste. Some corner of the school? Everyone who watched/had nearby lockers. Girls locker room? Every girl that had PE. The middle of the school? You could probably get away with charging everyone on campus as at least neglect, if not an accessory.

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According to Wilbow, Emma stopped everyone from helping Taylor when she was in the locker.

Source: Reddit