The passenger has the views most common to that fandom which for Cauldron likely means it sees them as pointlessly cruel idiots and it certainly doesn't like them. More generally Joe's precog countering at that point or rather all the way until he got ocp at the rock meeting was limited to his perk gains being unpredictable and them introducing new stuff that the precog shards lack data to model. Due to this he was vulnerable to Contessa stopping by and manipulating or strong-arming him for a while. Joe's personality and views also means he really wouldn't like stuff they get up to like leaving the Siberian free hoping to drive people to the prt and to use vs scion or their treatment of the case 53s.
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
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The passenger has the views most common to that fandom which for Cauldron likely means it sees them as pointlessly cruel idiots and it certainly doesn't like them. More generally Joe's precog countering at that point or rather all the way until he got ocp at the rock meeting was limited to his perk gains being unpredictable and them introducing new stuff that the precog shards lack data to model. Due to this he was vulnerable to Contessa stopping by and manipulating or strong-arming him for a while. Joe's personality and views also means he really wouldn't like stuff they get up to like leaving the Siberian free hoping to drive people to the prt and to use vs scion or their treatment of the case 53s.
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The problem with all of that is contesa's power is malicious. At least according to ward, so it probably would hinder that result.
On an unrelated note, is there a shattered limiter capstone in the worm jump doc? Wondering if Joe can get that.
Yeah but doesn't the CF react based on fanon/fandom concepts? Like how it really wanted Joe to be friendly with the Undersiders
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- He/Him/His
Hanlon's razor should apply, but Wildbow's philosophy generally appears to be: "why not both malice AND stupidity?"
I don't think it was this thread but someone brought up a comment from Wildbow where he said that the endbringers don't attack in the same 123 pattern, it's more along the lines of BSLSLBSB It could literally be either one of the other 2 statistically and historically inuniverse, I've been consuming worm content for over 10 years now and I never knew this until this week, that's crazy
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I just checked the wiki for the list of known Endbringer attacks and it looks we don't know enough about the attacks earlier in 2010 (there would be anywhere from 2-3 attacks between the Simurgh Christmas-time 2009 attack on Madison, WI and the Behemoth attack in Nov 2010) to rule anything in/out. There are a lot of holes in the Endbringer attack list during the B/L/S era (we only have 3 listed attacks between 2004 and 2010, the rest are missing), but the longest gap for any individual Endbringer appearing was Behemoth Aug 2002 to Oct 2003, which is 14 months. So definitely they can do things like that, but it's not completely random - if an Endbringer hasn't attacked in about a year, they're probably next up.
EDIT: just realized this was in response to someone suggesting it could be the Simurgh. By normal Worm rules, it couldn't be the Simurgh because she just attacked in late February. Of course, if this is disruptive enough to throw out the rules (as the jump doc for Worm says you're allowed to do) then it might not matter what the previous pattern was. I had been assuming that it would be Joe disregarding his passenger's warning not to kill an Endbringer that would change the rules, but I could be wrong.
Chubster is aware of the "various doomsday clocks for human civilization" in his third interlude (65.4). I'm not sure this necessarily maps to Dinah's prophecy (as opposed to Thinker projections of the current deterioration), but it's at least weak evidence, maybe?
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- Location
- Right here, where else would I be?
I personally subscribe to Hanlon's Ninja Star: Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice, and should be regarded as such. This goes double for Worm settings.
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Nullius in verba
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- a Pale Blue Dot
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@LordRoustabout, I think you place too much stress on yourself. So it's my first post here, but I just wanted to say BCF, although it started off as an experiment has really become a rather realistic take on a minor antagonist and has created an excellent character-driven story of almost two million words. Looking forward to the inevitable S9 takedown. About your new biweekly schedule, if you feel that it allows you to exert your full effort on what would take other writers weeks or months, then all speed to you. But smaller chunks like 5k chapters also might work and allows for a more consistent pace for newcomers to follow. Your updates have been my source of hope on Thursday and I am sure everyone who has liked your story also agrees. Thank you for all your work
and what are the way fanon sees numberman? He barley shows up in fics except as a bank account dispenser, any other canon part of him barley exists outside of the actual source material.
I'm not sure how it is contradictory? Except that it contradicts people who are wrong? Like being protected from Contessa is a way to make Cauldron less dangerous to you but them not having Numbers Man isn't; he's their accountant; if they need a hitman they have lots of people to call upon; they don't need him for that.
That's sort of why I would think that it wouldn't react to him; I'm not entirely up to date on the Worm fandom but I'm pretty sure that anyone with a opinion of him at all has that opinion of him. The opinion that he's basically just a economist at this point.
The Shallow
Shallow, Yet Deep
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- Your Universe
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I mean, if you look at Forge-chan's reaction to Cauldron, it's specifically "The full on, hands off kind of bad that made it dangerous to even look at."; It was warning Joe not to look into Cauldron to any degree, and also telling him to warn Weld to not do so either. (Joe later says to Weld "What I got from my power suggested you probably wouldn't back down from that point unless I laid everything out.")
My point was that, at the time, Cauldron was a big threat to Joe, so I just found it interesting that his passenger never responded.
You were simultaneously arguing "Numberman, a Cauldron affiliate, shouldn't evoke any fear" and "Joe only didn't feel fear because Contessa was now defended against". Felt kinda contradictory to me.
I will say, the fact that he's rather undefined in Fanon is a good point.
Might be best to end this discussion, given that it was only ever meant to be an observation initially.
Y'know, Joe already attracted Scion's attention with the M particles.
I'm unsure of how Scion will react to Broadcast suddenly screeching about King Of Arms' host, but last we saw Scion he was headed to see Kevin Norton.
And thus the greatest true threat to humanity after all…
But yeah, unless you give him a spinal transplant, the ability to turn into a teenage girl, and Nanoha magic, he's basically a nothingburger to most fics.
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Not the particle, but the portal to shardspace.
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The Shallow
Shallow, Yet Deep
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- Your Universe
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Maybe, but Scion harvested the M particles first. That may have just been for visibility reasons, but he took a pretty big sample.
46.2 Interlude Collin said:
What you say seems to imply that Contessa is only dangerous as a extension of being a member of Cauldron instead of things being the other way around. This is a completely unfounded belief and I hope that you expressed it in error instead of actually believing it.
Man I haven't said anything against the rules; you want to drop a topic you go right ahead but I'm going to keep replying to comments on it be they yours or otherwise.
Also what the hell was that about dropping topics that were based on observations meant to mean? That's the exact opposite of how discussions are meant to work; you and several other people talk about observations and implications there-of.
That, by the way, was more of a function of Sting which is a highly known factor. A internal factor, which Eden was meant to deal with, at that.
The Shallow
Shallow, Yet Deep
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I didn't accuse you of breaking rules or anything like that, I don't know where you got that idea.
All I initially said was "huh. interesting that Joe's passenger never reacted to Numberman", and now it's a bizarre argument about exact threat levels & fanon interpretations which seems to be going nowhere. I might be wrong in that, but from my perspective it doesn't feel like this argument has progressed whatsoever.
Either way, I'm gonna stop engaging with it now.
Not sure if this is just me clinging too much to Real World legal principles and not Worm Logic, but I'm not sure you could actually get lawsuits against Vicky very far.
IRL, to win a lawsuit you have to (a) demonstrate that the defendant did something wrong, (b) through negligence, recklessness, or intention, (c) you were meaningfully injured, and (d) money can make you whole. I feel like we can roll right through (a) and (d) - getting emotionally manipulated sucks, and probably some sort of therapy could help if you were hurt.
Going with point C first, I feel like it would be hard to prove actual injuries? Like, what you think about Canary's situation, her ex-BF got pretty seriously injured & traumatized. But aside from (presumably) Amy and (maybe??) Mark, what sort of damage could Victoria have actually done to people she interacted with? You'd have to get to either serious emotional distress, or some sort of monetary loss. If it went un-noticed until one of the most powerful Capes on the planet used a highly-targeted Thinker power, then I doubt that people were that impacted - if people were routinely buying her things because they were in love with her or constantly having nervous breakdowns when she looked at them funny, someone would've noticed.
But I think B is the real killer - there's no evidence whatsoever that this was intentional. Which means you're left with things like negligence or recklessness. But Victoria got her powers tested (according to the last Interlude) and was told it was safe. That means she exercised appropriate care and diligence, which makes it really hard to prove negligence. Canary, on the other hand, knew that her powers could affect people she talked to, she just didn't mean to use it at that particular moment.
I mean, sure, people can file whatever lawsuits they want, but they're probably getting tossed pretty quick, and Carol would know that as a lawyer (or would be able to talk to a lawyer friend to get their opinion).
Canary got railroaded in large part because she looks like the Simurgh and she's a Rogue making money off her dangerous powers, not a Hero who discovered an accidental downside to her powers. I imagine the PR will be challenging but this feels way less "completely screwed if this gets out" than I think Carol's been implying. Though I suppose her perception is warped because she's so close to it.
IRL, to win a lawsuit you have to (a) demonstrate that the defendant did something wrong, (b) through negligence, recklessness, or intention, (c) you were meaningfully injured, and (d) money can make you whole. I feel like we can roll right through (a) and (d) - getting emotionally manipulated sucks, and probably some sort of therapy could help if you were hurt.
Going with point C first, I feel like it would be hard to prove actual injuries? Like, what you think about Canary's situation, her ex-BF got pretty seriously injured & traumatized. But aside from (presumably) Amy and (maybe??) Mark, what sort of damage could Victoria have actually done to people she interacted with? You'd have to get to either serious emotional distress, or some sort of monetary loss. If it went un-noticed until one of the most powerful Capes on the planet used a highly-targeted Thinker power, then I doubt that people were that impacted - if people were routinely buying her things because they were in love with her or constantly having nervous breakdowns when she looked at them funny, someone would've noticed.
But I think B is the real killer - there's no evidence whatsoever that this was intentional. Which means you're left with things like negligence or recklessness. But Victoria got her powers tested (according to the last Interlude) and was told it was safe. That means she exercised appropriate care and diligence, which makes it really hard to prove negligence. Canary, on the other hand, knew that her powers could affect people she talked to, she just didn't mean to use it at that particular moment.
I mean, sure, people can file whatever lawsuits they want, but they're probably getting tossed pretty quick, and Carol would know that as a lawyer (or would be able to talk to a lawyer friend to get their opinion).
Canary got railroaded in large part because she looks like the Simurgh and she's a Rogue making money off her dangerous powers, not a Hero who discovered an accidental downside to her powers. I imagine the PR will be challenging but this feels way less "completely screwed if this gets out" than I think Carol's been implying. Though I suppose her perception is warped because she's so close to it.
- Location
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Fair enough, I'm not familiar enough with Law to say one thing or another on this. However even if legally there is nothing that can be done to Victoria... there is still the court of public opinion, who I don't think would take all that well to know that Victoria's Awe/Fear Aura isn't as safe as they were told it was.
It wouldn't matter that it would require long-time exposure along with a still developing brain for any actual lasting side-effects, the most likely to actually be effected outside of her immediate family are perhaps people in her school -who she shares what roughly seven and a half hours a day, and are still growing both physically and emotionally.
Sure the impact is again quite likely minimal to nothing but people aren't going to care about that. All they'll care about is the fact that it could be dangerous, and that their children were possibly the most susceptible to lasting side-effects. Emotion can be blinding.
Though I could be wrong. I think Victoria if, no when it get's out that her power's weren't as safe as they were supposed to be nor are they a 'Shaker' power but 'Master' power instead along with the chaos and fear brought onto 'Master' powers by the Canary case... she won't be in for a the best of times.
Yeah, maybe. But also, that seems like the sort of thing that people could agree to roll up into "ENE PRT didn't do its job for the last decade" pretty easily.
Especially if this is all past tense when it comes out. Victoria's power changed as a result of Case 69, which might solve the problem. Or Apeiron could easily fix it ("Vicky can turn her aura off" is orders of magnitude simpler than his last two power-modifying Named artifacts) if he could be persuaded (by the heroes who he actually kinda likes and legitimately did screw over).
- Location
- wethersfield,ct
Part of the reason Carol has been going without proper food/sleep for a bit longer than healthy, is because she did finagle the system to make sure Vicky got listed as a Shaker instead of a Master.
Add in that the PRT can and will attest to that the very second their being culpable is brought up, decades of child psychology research stating that GG's aura probably did have some effect on her classmates, and the plaintiffs will likely win the 'preponderance of evidence' test with the jury.
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- Location
- wethersfield,ct
This would require Apeiron showing up and offering to do so, or Vicky flying off and asking him, after she somehow learns he could.
Which do you think would have Carol freaking out more?
Canary needed to sing for her power to work even speaking in a raised voice wasn't enough normally but through a mixture of he'd been at the concert right before and according to wildbow wog Eden shards will apparently suddenly change the rules the power works by to screw over the host for their conflict causing thing with that being the example. I'd also argue Canary got way more than railroaded aside from the most blatant kangaroo court ever she had a nasty muzzle and manacles meant for high tier brutes chaining her to the floor all ending in the judge going under the three strikes act it is illegal for me to send you to the birdcage sucks for you though cause I'm doing it anyway.
Ace Dreamer
Verified Reality User
- Location
- Between The Unknown & The Known
Given Carol spends a lot of time around Victoria, and has chronic mental health issues that might be argued to possibly make her more susceptible to (some sorts of) Mastering...
Carol could be argued to be incapable of making any statements about her daughter, except that she's a 'concerned parent', that anyone in power should be listening to... What's to be done about this, and who if anyone is to be blamed, is an... interesting question.
Carol should be put through careful Master/Stranger testing?
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It is so simple that Apeiron doesn't even need to get involved:
Quote above is Wildbow's wiki edit on Vicky's page, regarding her powers, dating back to 2012. Funnily enough, modern version of wiki, when referencing same quote, says this:
Then there this:
Theory that GG can't turn off her aura completely and statement that she can after she "started exploring" the same aura are within a couple paragraphs of each other. Is it just me, or it is a bit of a mess?
So she either just doesn't shut it off becouse effect is subtle enough already, or she is not exploring it hard enough. Both possibilities show a jarring amount of disregard towards emotion inducing aura, as sensible thing would be to learn to suppress it as fast as possible and use it only when needed. And as it's a sensible thing, off course no-one in Worm thought about it. That just consistent world building on Wildbow's part.
Anyway, TL;DR: Victoria either can suppress her aura already or she can with a bit of "exploring". And if she all this time could turn off her power, but did not, then it better not become public knowledge, becouse it obviously will not make case better for her.
Also-also, you get the problem wrong from the start:
The interlude says clearly, that lawsuit is not against Vicky, it against PRT ENE. Becouse they let emotion manipulator run rampant in public without testing long term consequence of her powers (Actually, they have done that twice, but Gallant is not known and did not use his powers on civilians as much as Vicky did). That's clear negligence on part of their duty and safety of public, that will not be helped by PRT ENE's reputation descending to the depths of void and rest of PRT just disowning them as the incompetent one.
The only court that will pursue Vicky on this case is one of public opinion, and unlike normal one, Carol can't do much with this one, that's why she so worried.
- Location
- wethersfield,ct
"Victoria Dallon will be sued into oblivion by half the students of Arcadia as soon as Weld's report is declassified, something we can't hold off forever. Even if the accusation is disproven there's enough cause for damages to be sought from everyone exposed. Even if the team wasn't already splintered it wouldn't survive that."
Chapter 29