Didn't that part of PAT make Joe really uncomfortable? Why would he set up a surveillance tyranny?
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
- Start date
Joe has phobias.
The story hasn't actually been clear on what about PAT he found uncomfortable.
As for why, my PAT remark continued a discussion on why he hasn't just scanned the world and solved all the problems. It's not because he can't ( @Jfan999 asked for proof he could) or because he can't do so without angering society at large (a tradeoff @JoshuaSweetvale brought up and claimed Joe should accept), because PAT solves both problems by itself.
Rather, his reaction to PAT suggests that he hasn't done so because he finds the very notion of "aggressively managing" a civilization to be concerning.
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I bow to superior knowledge and research skills. I had honestly forgot how powerful scanning tech in xcom was.
While reviewing the old perks, it occurred to me that while Tybalt is the official demigod of war, Joe is far more capable as a demigod of warfare.
There's a popular view that, as of some nebulous point between the invention of the bayonet and World War I, superior technology is the key to victory. I think that's overblown, but less so as the disparity grows. Joe has the best military technology of many militarized and highly advanced settings, and if those aren't capable enough he can carry out years of research and development in a matter of minutes with UPGRADES!!! and his productivity boosters. Joe has the best war-fighting technology, and if he doesn't then he will tomorrow.
A contrasting point of view, looking at the two World Wars, holds that industrial power is king. It takes truly absurd amounts of equipment and supplies to win a modern war, and much of it is complex and difficult to produce. For Joe, however, Build Rome and company say that build time is for other people. For ongoing production, he even has the ability to set up automated lines that keep some of his productivity perks.
What about running the actual army, keeping his varied military units functioning as a unified team? Hera's blessing has that covered. As Joe observed, "Hera had offered Paris dominion over Europe and Asia" with the blessing that Joe inherited.
And then we turn to actual military functions, where his expertise goes well beyond multiple sets of military training.
The old military aphorism goes, "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." Shipping the Product gets his goods to his allies even in the face of enemy interference. But there's more to logistics than just shipping, right? What about maintenance? He doesn't completely obviate it, but Built to Last, Repair Savvy and Reliable Invention each cut down a huge chunk of it.
So that and Hera's Administration covers ops, but ops won't win the war if your strategy can't turn operational success into a victory. Fortunately for Joe, understanding a system also means understanding how to break it. Touched by the Protoculture gives that understanding. It shows where the pressure points are, where a precise cut can collapse a society or drastically alter its future. Modern countries often find that they can't use their army to accomplish their geopolitical goals even with military dominance, but Joe gets that for free.
Finally, Tactics. I think he even has an edge on Tybalt here, even without using his own technology. Decadence tells him the best places to put surveillance, winning at "knowing is half the battle". Mental Fortress warns him about deception tactics. And Efficiency applies to everything he does, meaning both that he doesn't waste the lives under his command and that he attacks each of his targets exactly as hard as he needs to to ensure victory. While he doesn't have all-around perfection as a tactical commander, he's perfect at enough of the difficult things that really matter that his various military officer backgrounds should fill in the gaps and make him a commander worthy of the tile, demigod of warfare.
There's a popular view that, as of some nebulous point between the invention of the bayonet and World War I, superior technology is the key to victory. I think that's overblown, but less so as the disparity grows. Joe has the best military technology of many militarized and highly advanced settings, and if those aren't capable enough he can carry out years of research and development in a matter of minutes with UPGRADES!!! and his productivity boosters. Joe has the best war-fighting technology, and if he doesn't then he will tomorrow.
A contrasting point of view, looking at the two World Wars, holds that industrial power is king. It takes truly absurd amounts of equipment and supplies to win a modern war, and much of it is complex and difficult to produce. For Joe, however, Build Rome and company say that build time is for other people. For ongoing production, he even has the ability to set up automated lines that keep some of his productivity perks.
What about running the actual army, keeping his varied military units functioning as a unified team? Hera's blessing has that covered. As Joe observed, "Hera had offered Paris dominion over Europe and Asia" with the blessing that Joe inherited.
And then we turn to actual military functions, where his expertise goes well beyond multiple sets of military training.
The old military aphorism goes, "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." Shipping the Product gets his goods to his allies even in the face of enemy interference. But there's more to logistics than just shipping, right? What about maintenance? He doesn't completely obviate it, but Built to Last, Repair Savvy and Reliable Invention each cut down a huge chunk of it.
So that and Hera's Administration covers ops, but ops won't win the war if your strategy can't turn operational success into a victory. Fortunately for Joe, understanding a system also means understanding how to break it. Touched by the Protoculture gives that understanding. It shows where the pressure points are, where a precise cut can collapse a society or drastically alter its future. Modern countries often find that they can't use their army to accomplish their geopolitical goals even with military dominance, but Joe gets that for free.
Finally, Tactics. I think he even has an edge on Tybalt here, even without using his own technology. Decadence tells him the best places to put surveillance, winning at "knowing is half the battle". Mental Fortress warns him about deception tactics. And Efficiency applies to everything he does, meaning both that he doesn't waste the lives under his command and that he attacks each of his targets exactly as hard as he needs to to ensure victory. While he doesn't have all-around perfection as a tactical commander, he's perfect at enough of the difficult things that really matter that his various military officer backgrounds should fill in the gaps and make him a commander worthy of the tile, demigod of warfare.
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- Location
- Nowhere
That's nice and all but Tybalt is a Demigod of War and everything you just detailed fall's under event's that happen during War it is safe to assumed Tybalt can likely also do those thing's that Joe can and most likely better so long as it deals with War.
Note I am not disagreeing with your statements about what Joe could do because he could do those and can use them in any situation he want's unlike with Tybalt being limited to War the thing's is is when it comes down to War I believe Tybalt will always be superior.
Actually, no. Tech side at least Tybalt is by far not a match for him. Why do you think he has Joe make his weapons for him instead of making them himself? Because any weapons he made would be inferior. Ironically despite how it may seem, making weapons of war is not actually under the God of Wars purview. It's Hephaestus' purview.
I think you both could be right about warfare vs war. The difference between the twos skill level would be miniscule in anything other then combat and crafting (tybalts and Joe specialties respectively) tybalt might be better then Joe but Joe could inherently do more because at the end of the day Joe has a bigger tool box to leverage then ty. However under the banner of anything that can be considered War (i.e. diplomacy, shadow wars, and open conflict) tybalt has less tools but the ones ty has are slightly sharper then joes to continue the analogy
Because it's against his morals? Just because he's incentivized to be proactive rather than reactive now doesn't mean he's going to drop all his morals.
Look at the first 'proactive' thing Joe did: Talk candidly with Lisa, giving her what she needs to know to escape a panic attack, and give her something she can focus on doing so she has a hand in the efforts against Coil.
Look at the first 'proactive' thing Joe did: Talk candidly with Lisa, giving her what she needs to know to escape a panic attack, and give her something she can focus on doing so she has a hand in the efforts against Coil.
Ares kids are more about the fighting, in-your-face part of the war, while it's the Athena kids that excel in warfare. I think I remember that Ares kids are not ideal for long-game tactics of war.
JoshuaSweetvale
Insectovore
- Location
- NL, 65 Million Years Ago
Not to get political here, but: Haha, no.
If you solve people's problems without strings attached, you will be hated. Not by everyone, but about a fifth to a fiftieth of the population.
In this story, see Amy, Piggot, Vista, and apropos of my original post: Lisa. Hell, the old battleaxe at the gym got angry when Joe donated a pallet of flour, thinking someone was taunting her.
The PRT threw the people he cut bombs out of into a concentration camp to keep the good PR from getting out! At that point you're at war with your own civilian population just to spite someone who upstaged you. Lunacy like that happens in real life too. Think about examples of envious retribution against whole proffessions. You can't reason with everyone, some people are just malignant. If you can build a machine to do it, box them before they get innocents killed.
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Gumiho
Reach heaven through violence!
Because thats what the posters advocating said action would do, nevermind the fact that Joe aint them and has pesky, pesky morals that preclude actions such as that.
Npt170
Primordial god of order
Earth bet human are just generally worse than regular human. They are nuge to go in that general direction socially by path to victory on a macro social scale to be worse so that more trigger can happen.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm going to have to disagree with the basic premise that the humans are worse in Worm than in reality. The difference in Worm is that the most malignant people for a job get plot-armored in to the job due to both Ziz and PtV. Whereas our deathworld is the way it is because we're just awful. We don't have the excuse of malignant precogs actively trying to make things bad, just regular people being righteous about being wrong.
Err, Joe hasn't publicly solved anyone's problems except for the people who he's directly healed. Most of those people (I.e. the ones he cut bombs out of) love him to the point the PRT thought it was plausibly a master effect.
As far as the average person is concerned, he started off as a weapon supplier for villains, appeared along with a new tinker and thinker whose fight destroyed half the city, and is terribly strong with no clear oversight nor rhyme or reason to his actions. His PR currently is horrendous as far as goodwill goes. His "halping" after
As far as real life goes, of course haters gonna hate. You can never appease everyone, but very few people will dislike you for the problems you solve. However, very few actions just solve issues - everything is connected. Providing food puts farmers/retailers out of business. Curing diseases can disrupt the medical industry. Being strong enough to take down bad guys threatens the stability of law, society, and the government. Giving unasked for and unneeded help hurts people's independence and pride. The real world isn't simple and blanket statements and categorizations about benevolent rulers and tyrants miss subtleties.
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....what are you talking about? He never kidnapped Panacea, accidentally or otherwise. His chat with her occurred in the hospital where she went for medical attention after the Bank heist. Where as her own sister interrupted in the middle of it by trying to slam her fist through his rib cage.
Great point. I was oversimplifying with my statement.
But to be fair, I was assuming that when "solve problems" was mention, the most self-sustained method is used. Not providing food, but teaching better ways of food procreation. Ya'know, better ways to farm, how to genetically engineer a perfect apple tree, how to engineer a meat printer e.t.c. Same with cures - not curing all diseases with a snap of a finger (I'm not even sure Joe would ever be capable of doing this) - but both providing knowledge of how to make cures and how to better research and engineer more when needed (Ailment that plague the humanity are ever-changing). Brute forcing justice by just throwing everything in prison without rime or reason will bring instabilities to the system. Organizing administrative systems of law enforcement and government so that they can actually deal with "bad guys" themselves is a bit better. Giving unasked for and unneeded help CAN hurt people's independence and pride. But there's always a way to help without any malign consequences. Finding these ways is a question of skill, knowledge, time and resources. And Joe have enough off all of it to fill constellations.
Wait. So, even by your own words, only at worst 1/5 of the population will hate you if you help them "without strings attached". The rest 4/5 will be free to feel whatever they want. Be it love or indifference. That... better than being "hated". I will go as far as to say that even if 0.000001% of that 4/5 actually love the one who helps them, while the rest is indifferent, it is still being loved. You said that there's no way to be powerful, proactive AND loved. I yet to hear a reason for why it's supposed to be true.
Amy - does not hate Apeiron for healing her.
Piggot - Apeiron never helped her and actively were accusing her of insanity.
Vista - Apeiron never helped her, and she sees him as a reason for her life falling apart.
Lisa - does not hate Joe, just thinks that he is incompetent. For some reason.
Ms. Gartenberg - does not hate anonymous benefactor. Just very competitive.
From all of your examples, only 2 actively hate (Hate is a big word, just being disgruntled does not cut it) Joe. None of them he helped. At all. At the same time:
Aisha - Joe helped her. A lot. Does not hate him. Actually grateful and trust him.
Taylor - Joe helped her and promised to help more. Does not hate him. Actually grateful and trust him.
Weld - Was saved by Joe. Does not hate him. Actually grateful and kind of trust him.
Glorygirl - was never helped by Apeiron. Still, sees all the good he's done and believes in him, even after his actions practically destroyed her family.
Chen - Chen. What's more to say?
All other ABB conscripts - were saved by Apeiron. It was noted IN THE STORY that most of them pro-Apeiron.
Gym people, Ms Gartenberg included - Said out loud that they grateful to mysterious benefactor for food. Just a bit disgruntled with the fact that they have to organize all of it.
Well, would you look at that. It seems not all people are assholes and some are actually capable of being gratefully. And reasonable. I don't know how that's a surprise.
Don't be dramatic. And don't trow words like concentration camp around like it's nothing. They apprehended possible victims of mind control and put them in M&S cells, and if there were anything like concentration camps then Young Guard would tear PRT apart for holding Panacea in one of them for weeks, where said victims could not harm themselves and others. Yes, PR is involved, but there were safety concerns too. Concerns needed in a world where Ziz and alike exist.
You can reason with most people, and that a reason to try to reason. Yes, there always will be people like Jack Slash, but that does not mean that people like Vista, Piggot and Lisa (Characters you mentioned as "Will hate...because.") are completely unreasonable and should be "boxed". Saying otherwise is like saying that you will never be loved, just because some people will always hate you. Which you also do say, so I suppose no surprise here.
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- Location
- Deep inside the sand
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Just a bit cherry picking here. Please don't mind me too much.
I suspect if people has not created e.g. GMO soy beans that is as good and healthy as organic soy beans since, then they probably can't do it for meat.
Referenses:
GMO Health Risks You Need To Be Aware Of - Cancer Wisdom
GMO Risks
I'm sure Joe can find a way to solve the hunger problem and get free energy. Probably something like more power to the individual since if its more power to the state or corporates it will probably just create more problems. Since when has the state ever let go of any power voluntary.
Apeiron has never helped Piggot personally but he has helped in her job area. Pulled bombs out of peoples head. Its possible to argue against Apeiron when he fought Uber & leet at chapter 30 so I drop it that time. Then he has helped PRT and the rescue forces to coordinate with his battle map. He has fought off an S class situation and saved the city from being destroyed. Something that the PRT and Protectorate has totally failed to get a response get out a call for help.
The problem is that Piggots decisions were never made of logic nor reason. They were made of fear. When a decision is made because of fear then its not reasonable.
She has more mixed feelings than what was implied from your text. Trying to reason with her rage and looking for something stable while her envirement essentially gets crumbles.
GMOs has been found to negatively impact your fertility. Its become so much of a problem that some GMO products have become banned in some countries outside USA. Sperm count has sharply dropped since GMO has been introduced.
I suspect if people has not created e.g. GMO soy beans that is as good and healthy as organic soy beans since, then they probably can't do it for meat.
Referenses:
GMO Health Risks You Need To Be Aware Of - Cancer Wisdom
GMO Risks
I'm sure Joe can find a way to solve the hunger problem and get free energy. Probably something like more power to the individual since if its more power to the state or corporates it will probably just create more problems. Since when has the state ever let go of any power voluntary.
A system exists for its people support, not for the system itself. I don't know how to exactly say this in the most beautiful manner; its the humans, we, that have created this system that is supposed to support and free us. If the system cannot do it then it must be changed to something that can. And if a system cannot do it in the first place then it's unnecessary.
Apeiron made an serious accusation but then clarified the potential inaccuracy of it. Since then she and Armsmaster has made many bad calls that has forced them into a courner to take strong actions against Apeiron. A logistical nightmare.
Apeiron has never helped Piggot personally but he has helped in her job area. Pulled bombs out of peoples head. Its possible to argue against Apeiron when he fought Uber & leet at chapter 30 so I drop it that time. Then he has helped PRT and the rescue forces to coordinate with his battle map. He has fought off an S class situation and saved the city from being destroyed. Something that the PRT and Protectorate has totally failed to get a response get out a call for help.
The problem is that Piggots decisions were never made of logic nor reason. They were made of fear. When a decision is made because of fear then its not reasonable.
Just like you said she doesn't hate him, though she doesn't like him either. She feels and I quote "Beyond the first association with the Undersiders, one that still caused waves of impotent rage to course through her, he had done nothing."
She has more mixed feelings than what was implied from your text. Trying to reason with her rage and looking for something stable while her envirement essentially gets crumbles.
See Lisa related topics. There is plenty.
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There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Correlation does not imply causation, but most of anti-gmo propaganda are outright lies.
There are major [unfair] regulatory roadblocks for developing GMOs,
and still labs manage to stay profitable despite expenses, so if someone like Joe to make major improvements,
corporations and farmers would jump at the chance to buy it.
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- Location
- Deep inside the sand
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We can possible continue to talk in pm if you and others wish to talk more about this. I don't think we should derails it futher from BCF.
Ah, sorry, its just a sore subject for me.
- Location
- Deep inside the sand
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I apologize too.
So about BCF does anyone have any idea on what Joe will do next chapter? We know Alec will call after when he knows Lisa has made a call. But he will probably call the next day as its the latest when he knows it. Or do you people think he will call Joe first after the Boss has made his pitch to the Undersiders?
Don't just jump to GMO when genetic engineering is mentioned. For all you know, I meant good old selective breeding. And even if we go with straight gene editing, I'm more than sure that if it can be done without side effects (And I hope it can be done, genetic disorders are a bitch to cure otherwise), Joe will be able to do it easily.
Also, when I talked about meat printers, I meant something like Star Trek Replicator (Which probably just going to make a lot of industries obsolete, so Joe will have to be careful when rolling out that kind of tech). Probably should have been clearer on that.
Actually, about that, here:
Next chapter was going to be wrapping up the current day for the workshop crew. There'll be coverage of any work they'll be focusing on and any new perks that are rolled, but I'd really like to make it to Tuesday within the next couple of chapters. There is a lot happening in the city, and the days are packed enough as it is. Taking months or real time to get through each day doesn't do the pacing any favors. As much as I'd like to speed things up, there really is just too much to cover to skim over things.
And:
Alec does have other things to do, but also wanted to give Lisa space to provide her with enough rope to hang herself. He'll get her story on how the call went when he sees her the following day, then will reach out to Joe with a more honest appraisal of the Team's situation.
So yeah, my bet for the next chapter - getting perks, maybe setting test batch of stealth drones out, and Joe going to bed.
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The stuff we know of is mostly stuff that's due to happen on the next in story day so its probably going to be training or otherwise preparing. That said any predictions have a lot of uncertainty to them because the bank is at 500 so the next roll is for 600. Joe tracks build up especially during important stuff like that call so he'll know that and not do anything too major that could be interrupted by being floored by a 600. In the same vein there's too many big perks that could cause disruptions and take a while to cover for example the 2 600 perks that allow instant cracking of Bakuda's code.