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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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Strypgia said:
Anyhow, an apology. I've been far busier here than I expected to be, which is bad for writing, but great professionally. I'm doing a lot of intel support to several units here, and they're pretty happy with how things are going.
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A potential extra stripe is more important than any number of likes on here. Nobody will hold it against you.
 
A spoiler function is cool, but fuck me it's gonna give me a headache.

I don't think I've ever watched or read or played something that used the twist "It was all a dream!" and I hope I never do, outside one exception. The Family Guy two-parter Stewie Kills Lois/Lois Kills Stewie ended like that, complete with dialog directly acknlowledging the audience, right before it cuts the scene like the end of The Sopranos.
 
Strypgia said:
ND overall suffered from a lack of advance planning, which could produce awesome, but made a satisfying ending elusive.
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My general impression of GreggHL is that he tends to write by the seat of his pants, in fairly short segments at a time, and will sometimes throw an idea in that seems good but which later turns out to cause problems. IIRC the "all a dream" bit was an attempt to fix some of those problems that had gotten out of hand.

Nothing against him, personally or as an author, mind you; that's just my interpretation of how things went down.
 
Jim Starluck said:
My general impression of GreggHL is that he tends to write by the seat of his pants, in fairly short segments at a time, and will sometimes throw an idea in that seems good but which later turns out to cause problems. IIRC the "all a dream" bit was an attempt to fix some of those problems that had gotten out of hand.
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it was an attempt to get a redo to rewrite what needed revised and better handle what had worked, the thing that stalled things out was, too many of the readers weren't ready to accept the work as it was; might have been flawed, in the end the readers turned on each other and the author moved on to other tails
 
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Strypgia said:
ND overall suffered from a lack of advance planning, which could produce awesome, but made a satisfying ending elusive.
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Sounds a lot like me when writing :V

Take your time, Stryp. And don't hurt Kaworu too much!

Jim Starluck said:
My general impression of GreggHL is that he tends to write by the seat of his pants, in fairly short segments at a time, and will sometimes throw an idea in that seems good but which later turns out to cause problems.
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...Sounds a lot like me when writing :V

Then again, MST3K kinda leans itself to writing by the seat of my pants. Especially when I'm going in as blind as the people reading it.
Though fun fact, I've been planning the upcoming Chronicles since March, according to my notes for it. So I'm getting better at the whole planning thing I think :V
 
Jim Starluck said:
My general impression of GreggHL is that he tends to write by the seat of his pants, in fairly short segments at a time, and will sometimes throw an idea in that seems good but which later turns out to cause problems. IIRC the "all a dream" bit was an attempt to fix some of those problems that had gotten out of hand.

Nothing against him, personally or as an author, mind you; that's just my interpretation of how things went down.
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Nobody Dies seems to be yet another example of the triumph of the "Architect" (something I try to be) over the "Gardener." You know one side of an argument has things pretty nailed down when all it has to do is say nothing and allow the other side to make mistakes. Gregg is a good writer with good ideas, he just needs some direction (planning ahead will not kill you, fellow writer. Give it a go).
 
Lord Sovereign said:
Nobody Dies seems to be yet another example of the triumph of the "Architect" (something I try to be) over the "Gardener." You know one side of an argument has things pretty nailed down when all it has to do is say nothing and allow the other side to make mistakes. Gregg is a good writer with good ideas, he just needs some direction (planning ahead will not kill you, fellow writer. Give it a go).
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"Gardener" style works are often better with in character driven stories where plot progression is rare. Sitcoms, scetchs, and even soaps are good. But every garden has a fence that needs to be built before you plant the seed and it's clear ND forgot to do that.

It's a shame too cause I really liked it too.
 
The thing is you can't control everything, so even if you have a lot of things planned you might hit something unexpected !
Hence when you build a house you also have to take care of the garden !
 
Notspecialdude said:
"Gardener" style works are often better with in character driven stories where plot progression is rare. Sitcoms, scetchs, and even soaps are good. But every garden has a fence that needs to be built before you plant the seed and it's clear ND forgot to do that.

It's a shame too cause I really liked it too.
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Plot progression has become a proven necessity as without it these sitcoms and soaps devolve into aimlessly dithering and going nowhere. You need a destination and a road map to follow, else you'll just get lost.

Vajrei said:
Let's not forget this old expression. "No plan survives fist contact."
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Hannibal would disagree.
 
Jim Starluck said:
My general impression of GreggHL is that he tends to write by the seat of his pants, in fairly short segments at a time, and will sometimes throw an idea in that seems good but which later turns out to cause problems. IIRC the "all a dream" bit was an attempt to fix some of those problems that had gotten out of hand.
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I think someone, somewhere, is getting a sneezefest at the moment.
Lord Sovereign said:
Nobody Dies seems to be yet another example of the triumph of the "Architect" (something I try to be) over the "Gardener." You know one side of an argument has things pretty nailed down when all it has to do is say nothing and allow the other side to make mistakes. Gregg is a good writer with good ideas, he just needs some direction (planning ahead will not kill you, fellow writer. Give it a go).
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As it was rightfully said, this discussion has been there for - well, I guess as long as people started to reflect on writing, but it will go on, as the examples crop up. Interesingly, mainly when something goes wrong and a project collapses, because nobody dares to judge the victors ;)
Notspecialdude said:
"Gardener" style works are often better with in character driven stories where plot progression is rare. Sitcoms, scetchs, and even soaps are good. But every garden has a fence that needs to be built before you plant the seed and it's clear ND forgot to do that.
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I like the "fence" simile, it's actually quite fitting - you need to know what the limits are, lest you escalate a cozy romance into a cosmic horror story. I only read the beginning of Nobody Dies (yeah, I know, call me uneducated), so I can't reflect on the story itself, but in my opinion, Gardening approach can work to progress the plot and the overall story - as long as the author actually maintains the garden, snips the unnecessary parts and directs the useful ones. It works quite well with NGE, where stations of the canon (the Angels) force the characters to act - or get trampled. Of course, AU stories tend to do away with stations of the canon or they invent their own, nullifying this advantage.

In other words, IMO pure Gardener and pure Architect will both create works either without much cohesion and sense, or without much spirit and realism. It's always about balance, most often with preference towards one or another.
 
Strypgia said:
Stop-and-go traffic on the Beltway. I stopped, guy in a pickup truck behind me did not. Damage wasn't bad, but enough to exceed the insurance value of my van, so... Meh.

In the interests of keeping things going and me motivated, here's a preview!
Apologies for the quality, this is unpolished rough cut.

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Rei's stare remained locked on Misato as she edged closer to Kaworu, putting herself between him and the Operations Manager. She kept her hand raised, the humming orange AT-Field staying up, lighting the room.

Misato shook her head slowly, trying to reject what she was seeing. "No... no, not you too, Rei. Not you too..." she whispered, her gun still raised. It now pointed right at Rei's heart. It trembled minutely.

The door to Asuka and Shinji's room slammed open and a furious Second Child rocketed out. "OK, YOU SON OF A-" She cut off and skidded to a halt as she saw the frozen tableau in the living room. "...Scheiße." Asuka lowered the aluminium crutch she had run in with, ready to unleash it on another SEELE gunman. "This isn't how we wanted to tell you, Misato."

Misato's ashen face swung from Rei to Asuka. "...you KNEW?"

"That talk Rei and I had last night," Asuka admitted. "You can see why I wanted to talk to Shinji and Kaworu before we broke it to you? Because we knew you would... not take it well." She threw a glare at the Fifth Child. "We told you not to do this, idiot."

Kaworu shrugged slightly. "I admit, I did not expect Major Katsuragi to immediately try to shoot me, but-" He waved at the standoff in front of him.

"Asuka, he's an Angel," Misato growled through clenched teeth. "And... Rei?"

"She's... not exactly an Angel, Misato. She's something... else," Asuka tried. It did not seem to pacify the Major.

Misato's gun had not moved. Neither had Rei. No one did until the rattle of an IV stand rolling across the tatami mats on the floor broke the silence. "Misato-san, I would appreciate it if you stopped pointing your gun at my friends," Shinji said, fatigue oozing from his voice.

Misato darted a look at Shinji before focusing back on Rei. "Shinji, he's not your friend. He's an Angel. Our enemy."

"He is not our enemy," Shinji replied. He wearily advanced into the room, putting himself in front of Rei, facing right into Misato's gun from almost arm's reach. He closed his eyes for a moment and sagged against the IV stand before taking a deep breath and standing up straight again. "He is my friend. My teammate in combat. And more than that, he loves me, just like Rei and Asuka. I am not going to abandon someone who says that to me and means it. It doesn't matter he's an Angel. He's not like the others. He doesn't want to fight us."
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Alternate idea for what's said:

Misato: (shocked that Rei has an AT field) Wait-WHAT?!?! REI?!?!

*Asuka barges in ready to kill another SEELE hitman*

Shinji: *absolutely (NOT) in the mood for this s**t* Hey... don't shoot the defector and his girlfriend, who just so happens to be my cloned part-angel sister...
 
Lord Sovereign said:
Plot progression has become a proven necessity as without it these sitcoms and soaps devolve into aimlessly dithering and going nowhere. You need a destination and a road map to follow, else you'll just get lost.
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Some Soap operas have episode counts in the thousands and I could name a several anime that have hundreds of episodes (Detective Conan, Stg Frog, etc...)

The main advantage of "Gardener" writing is the longevity of the story. You dont watch these shows for the journey or the destination, but for the people on said journey. The key to their success is their premise.

Detective Conan is about a teenager transformed into a child through an illegal drug by a secret organization. He thus sticks to an inept detective and solves his cases so that he could find a cure.

Stg Frog is about an inempt platoon of aliens and their attempts to conquer earth.

These premises lend themselves to long shows, and when the writers are done they could throw together a final arc to wrap up the premise. ND did not have an end goal in mind. Thus it kept going and going and once the writer eventually hit a corner he could not write himself out of satisfyingly, it ended.
 
Ok, got bad, depressing news again today, so you know what that means:

I'm not going to sleep until I've written some comedy or WAFF or an omake. It's the only way to fly.
 
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