Maybe? It's plausible that, with enough eldar scrying the Aeldmoot, both in the prior few months, during, and for the next few years to follow, there could be enough focused psycher energy to strain the curse and damage it's foundation? I'm not familiar enough with the particulars of temporal scrying and warp scrying feedback pre horus heresy to really estimate the likeliness of such an outcome.

Was saying that because:
You are uncertain if this working will ever reach its full potential as things stand, and it is fragile enough that a significant disruption will likely shatter the entire working, with one of its keystones missing.

We got some examples of significant disruption.
The moot might also count with how we went all in, but as is it is a pretty significant event with wide-ranging changes for how things would have otherwise gone.

Namely, the Eldar aren't blind to 2 of the 3 curses and can start to fight them like they do the claim of slannesh.

That at least should do some damage, even if that does get rid of it completly.
 
If we bring the Ishari I can see the conservatives arguing that we're biased when it comes to providing evidence for the subtle part of Nurgle's Curse, considering how it benefits us if 'conservatism' can be pointed to as the result of enemy action.

I feel like we need to focus on getting everyone focused on working together to fight the Curses first before splitting the issue by bringing them in, but then if we let things settle down later I can see it getting harder to bring up the Ishari. It's not like a Chaos God's curse was needed for conservatism to be a thing in the first place.
We'll probably get a similarly huge injections of Psy-Scopes once we start refitting our Battle Carracks and Combat Brigs to swap out the Fatesever PD and Fatesheer CIWB for something else.
If you think Fatescopes aren't the limiting factor for outfitting our interceptor fighters why would we need to swap out the Fatesheer PD? Especially since it and the hangar bays combined would make our battleship very heavily defended against enemy strikecraft.
battleships primarily focus on long range engagements, relying on the escort vessels accompanying them to defend them at close and medium range. it would be wiser to go for a mix of mostly long range and defenses, with some room for hangers to keep the fatesever or fate twister interceptors class starfighters we have discussed previously, for emergency deployment against potential destroyer/fast attack/fighterbomber knifefights in their general vicinity.
Both Starlanes and Suncannons have long ranges (the latter from our picks when designing them), so that combination would still be able to contribute at long range beyond just the Mega-lances. I just think one battery for shorter range engagements wouldn't break the bank, and a naval grade fusion mortar (especially one with increased power and range) should work pretty well for that.
Maybe? It's plausible that, with enough eldar scrying the Aeldmoot, both in the prior few months, during, and for the next few years to follow, there could be enough focused psycher energy to strain the curse and damage it's foundation? I'm not familiar enough with the particulars of temporal scrying and warp scrying feedback pre horus heresy to really estimate the likeliness of such an outcome.
I think it's just that it's easier to break the curse if more people know about it and are actively working to break it, the Moot's just called out because that's how the vast majority of Eldar will be informed.
 
If we bring the Ishari I can see the conservatives arguing that we're biased when it comes to providing evidence for the subtle part of Nurgle's Curse, considering how it benefits us if 'conservatism' can be pointed to as the result of enemy action.

I feel like we need to focus on getting everyone focused on working together to fight the Curses first before splitting the issue by bringing them in, but then if we let things settle down later I can see it getting harder to bring up the Ishari. It's not like a Chaos God's curse was needed for conservatism to be a thing in the first place.

If they want to go hard on: you are biased so you are wrong about the nurgle curse, they don't need the Ishari.

Reminder how we learned about the flaws.
We went on a full soul mapping of the post fall eldar soul even with all the dangers involved that is not something you do lightly (as in one of the consequences is potentially soul destruction of the poked soul or them getting eaten by demons we just got stupidly lucky). More so when most of the other Eldar seem to think they had a full understanding of the Flaw.

We are pretty open with the fact that we are going for something drastic as we reject the path system almost everyone else follows.

We are already on the Radical side, the Ishari aren't going to tip the scales there.
The conservatives just might get prissy that what they likely see as non-people got invited.

Also, a good reminder that one of the visions the Ishari got was Biel-Tan murdering them all. This is a pretty good indication how the "arch" conservatives see them, and well us considering Biel-Tan is currently trying to kill us.
 
Last edited:
Also, since the conservative topic came up again, of the major craftworlds, I would say only Alaitoc outright has Conservative.

Biel-Tan definitely does not have it: they have no problems slaughtering sacred cows in the name of victory (*cough* void spinner *cough*)

I would even go so far as saying Iyanden might have Innovative (but in another direction than we do), given most of the creative solutions we have in Canon come from Iyanden:
- Repurposing Tears of Isha (divine communication devices) as Phylacteries -> Iyanden
- Inventing/Repurposing the Infinity circuit as an artificial afterlife -> Iyanden
- Using ghost warriors to supplement the living in an emergency (Less creative, more pragmatic) -> Iyanden
- Ynnead -> you guessed it, Iyanden.
 
Last edited:
We are already on the Radical side, the Ishari aren't going to tip the scales there.
The conservatives just might get prissy that what they likely see as non-people got invited.
Can we afford to assume that the only negative effect bringing them would have is making those like Biel-Tan hate us more? It's been called out that our choices here have political ramifications, and considering this whole event is about informing the others of the 3 Curses I can't see the Ishari issue not spilling over into that. This is just me trying to figure out one of the ways that could happen.

Another effect could be their presence convincing some of the others of trying out different ways of fighting the Curses. Which could then lead to polarisation in method of fighting them, even if everyone shares the goal of breaking them.
 
Last edited:
Was looking for this:
In this case, it's actually more pre-Fall conservativism ("Thou Shalt Not Modify Thy Soul Ever") but yeah, they're militant revanchist jerks and they've been militant revanchist jerks from the very start.
(Insert image of Beil-Tan guardian with crudely photoshopped ballcap reading "Make The Aeldari Great Again" perched on the tip of their pointy helmet)

So yeah Biel-Tan is very much in the conservative camp.

Should also hopefully somewhat inform people what the conservative camp stands for and why we clash with them so heavily.
 
Last edited:
Can we afford to assume that the only negative effect bringing them would have is making those like Biel-Tan hate us more? It's been called out that our choices here have political ramifications, and considering this whole event is about informing the others of the 3 Curses I can't see the Ishari issue not spilling over into that. This is just me trying to figure out one of the ways that could happen.

Another effect could be their presence convincing some of the others of trying out different ways of fighting the Curses. Which could then lead to polarisation in method of fighting them, even if everyone shares the goal of breaking them.
I will point out that there is no level beyond Hate for biel-tan to get to (Although I suppose one might be invented for them if rub this in their face too hard)

Their quarrel against us is not specifically our Trans-eldaristic plans: that's just fuel to the fire.

The problem is that our transformation also rejects the concept of "Rebirth of the Ancient days" or "everything Biel-tan wants" and they took it personally.

Ironically, this conclave and the information we bring are their best bet for something like an eldar empire resurgence.

There is no hope for an empire as long as the souls of the eldar are forefeit, their foresight is compromized, and their population growth in the negatives. Purging the maiden worlds has to come after that.

They just have to stop frothing in the mouth and recognize the opportunity... which may be easier said than done.

Getting uncursed is something everyone can agree on, and if Biel-Tan sends someone actually clever, and not just some angry meathead to make threats, they will capitalize on it.
 
I HAVE RETURN FROM -[who again is eldar deity of sleep... ah right her] LILEATH'S DOMAIN!!!

Anyway, I am happy that our tree debate is mostly over/we reach an impass where others no longer can be convinced.

As such I shall advocate for taking both hero units from Meros, why? Because Oldseer is in such a situation, he would be able to focus on sharing his knowledge (most likely with Ulthwe in general and Eldrad in particular) while his heiress can help deal with politics.
 
Can we afford to assume that the only negative effect bringing them would have is making those like Biel-Tan hate us more? It's been called out that our choices here have political ramifications, and considering this whole event is about informing the others of the 3 Curses I can't see the Ishari issue not spilling over into that. This is just me trying to figure out one of the ways that could happen.

Another effect could be their presence convincing some of the others of trying out different ways of fighting the Curses. Which could then lead to polarisation in method of fighting them, even if everyone shares the goal of breaking them.

Our job isn't to get the conservative camp to do anything productive.

We give them all the info we gathered on the Curses, and it comes down to them if they are actually willing to sit down and listen or go full denial.

Then we work with the people that are actually willing to solve the problems instead of going into denial.

The Ishari are important for two reasons.
They are an example of the soul reforge being a (working) solution and them being a high ranking part of Ishas priesthood that are still alive.

This get more of the parts that would stay away because there is no proof it actually works.
It also gets us a good center point for gathering people to get Isha back from nurgle (even if that will be a much longer term quest).
 
Last edited:
I think we should bring both Meros seers so that we have the expertise and oomph for a major psychic working if we need to lead one.

I think we should bring the dryads. We are a radical faction and we should embrace that and the advantages it brings us.

- The dryads bring a link to Isha, which could be relevant to psychic workings;
- they show a way of defeating the curses;
- and they make clear that our federation welcomes diversity, which could attract other radical eldar to join us or share knowledge or resources with us.

I don't care one way or the other about bringing the sword of vaul. It would probably make us look powerful, and it would be handy if Chaos tries to disrupt the aeldmoot, but it's also clearly way more fleet than we need to bring to a diplomatic event and may leave us or our allies exposed at home for the year or so that it will be away.
 
Depends. Obviously if you failed to get them away he almost certainly wouldn't have made it, in any fleeing remnant; he might have also made a suicide play to get them away, but instead the dice decided to be absurd, and Meros didn't get invaded, shot by a Waaagh-Motion Gun, or otherwise seriously messed up.

I swear, this is like finding a Loyalist Warsmith just sitting in a stasis field after getting lost in the Warp all over again! I expected you would have to invent wraithseers before you could get access to all that tasty knowledge! But no, he's fine, and now you have a Hero Unit level Seer of your very own!
Can we get a shipment of souls tones from Iyanden? So we don't get eaten? Or at least some stones for our knowledgeable elderly?

Cause like he is approaching deaths door he needs a soul stone asap.
 
Our job isn't to get the conservative camp to do anything productive.

We give them all the info we gathered on the Curses, and it comes down to them if they are actually willing to sit down and listen or go full denial.

Then we work with the people that are actually willing to solve the problems instead of going into denial.

The Ishari are important for two reasons.
They are an example of the soul reforge being a (working) solution and them being a high ranking part of Ishas priesthood that are still alive.

This get more of the parts that would stay away because there is no proof it actually works.
It also gets us a good center point for gathering people to get Isha back from nurgle (even if that will be a much longer term quest).

Why shouldn't it be our job to get the conservative block to do something productive, if we're capable of it?

Particularly, why should we choose to do things likely to make them less likely to do productive things.

If we want to do things like change the nature of put gods by changing their perception amongst the Eldar, we need their cooperation. There are some paths to dealing with the Curses that require that they play fall and are willing to cooperate.

Remember, even 'Conservative' Craftworlds have actually embraced incredibly radical change in the very recent past. The Paths are a deeply unnatural and difficult to follow imposition on Eldar nature they've recently adopted, and Post-Fall Khaine's position in Craftworld Eldar society is radically different to Pre-Fall. They've just embraced very personally challenging change that doesn't conflict with what they see as their moral code. What they're conservative about is morality, not lifestyle. We're arguably the conservative ones in that aspect, as we want to conserve our Pre-Fall lifestyle even if it means spiritual surgery.

It's quite possible that some of the best routes to dealing with the Curses require as much unity amongst the Eldar as possible, or coordinated action on a massive scale. We've seen that the Conservatives are capable of that by the way they invented and adopted the core of the Paths within months of the Fall. Deliberately pissing off a large fraction of the population does not seem like a good idea if that turns out to be the case.
 
Last edited:
Can we get a shipment of souls tones from Iyanden? So we don't get eaten? Or at least some stones for our knowledgeable elderly?

Cause like he is approaching deaths door he needs a soul stone asap.
Iyanden shared the alternate use of Spirit Stones with us in the character creation post (part 2), and we probably have quite a few of them anyway, because (unless I'm mixing up WFB lore with 40k) they were communication devices that let Isha talk to the Eldar (despite the Edict).
 
Why shouldn't it be our job to get the conservative block to do something productive, if we're capable of it?

Very limited resources and actions.

You make it sound we can just ignore the limitation we are under and as if even without any promises/deals made to uphold we aren't in a tight spot with our actions as is.
 
Very limited resources and actions.

You make it sound we can just ignore the limitation we are under and as if even without any promises/deals made to uphold we aren't in a tight spot with our actions as is.

We can simply show up and be reasonable and not piss them off more, and propose mutually beneficial things that help everyone and that everyone is incentivised to get involved in.

Things like treaties or joint projects don't have to cost more each the more people are involved in them.

If we do something like a joint expedition to loot the True Stars, it won't cost us any more if it's twice as big because the Conservatives also come, it's just likely to be more profitable for everyone, because there's plenty to go around and the greater concentration of force means that it will be more than twice as successful.

Similarly, a joint project to stress Tzzentch's Curse until it breaks (stop doing precog at all for six months, and then suddenly do masses, for example), or spoof Kairos with staged scenes, might work much, much better if everyone is onboard, but not cost the participants anymore than if fewer people do it.

Similarly, establishing an Eldar version of the UN, same resource commitment however many people sign up l, much more valuable the more people do.

For Diplomacy and related thing the benefits don't scale with personal investment nearly as much as with breadth of involvement.

This isn't a field where modelling things as an action budget really makes sense. You don't get rewarded based on how much effort you put in, but how successful you are building a coalition that finds a mutually acceptable compromise for the widest group that can hold together.

I look at this like one of the Climate Conferences trying to agree something like the Treaty of Paris. We likely have a collective action problem, and the best way to solve those is to look for points of commonality, not emphasise differences.
 
Last edited:
You only consider the conservatives here, assuming that everyone else will fall in line automatically.

But well, many of them are not all that popular, openly leaving behind our own allies to pander to them could easily lose us as much support as it gains.

Would we rather have the supports of the conservatives, who already hate us, and will hate us once more once we start doing stuff, or that of the radicals, with whom we can make common cause?
 
Last edited:
Would we rather have the supports of the conservatives, who already hate us, and will hate us once more once we start doing stuff, or that of the radicals, with whom we can make common cause?
That assumes the conservatives and the radicals are monoliths. It's possible factions to be conservative about different issues, such that one would support our ideas whilst the other rejects it.

I'm still not sure which I prefer, though I'm leaning towards bringing them, but I'd rather not treat everyone who disagrees with our chosen method as wrong, and for better or worse bringing the Ishari along will be polarising.
 
That assumes the conservatives and the radicals are monoliths. It's possible factions to be conservative about different issues, such that one would support our ideas whilst the other rejects it.

I'm still not sure which I prefer, though I'm leaning towards bringing them, but I'd rather not treat everyone who disagrees with our chosen method as wrong, and for better or worse bringing the Ishari along will be polarising.

Keep in mind that what the Ishari did ?
Yeah, we want to do the same (reforge our soul) and pretty much everyone in the meeting knows that.

What they don't have so far is proof that the reforging can actually be successful (even in theory), they actually practical proof that it can be done.
 
We don't even know who the conservatives are, at this point.

Of the major craftworlds, we know this:
Biel-tan
Revanchists. Dislike Soulforging, to the point of Kinstrife.
Was the only one of the five major craftworlds to accept Iyanden's empirebuilding plan... with a very different interpretation of how the process would go.

Alaitoc
Very Anti-Necron, to the point of rejecting Iyanden's offer of partnership in empire building in favor of finding and destroying tomb worlds.
Develops into an extremely strict society that drives away their youth.
Possibly has the Conservative trait from Character Creation.
Almost certainly dislike the Soulforging.

Iyanden
Empire builders. Most influential and populous, the Kingmaker.
This is who we need to impress.
Our information will definitely earn us a lot of brownie points by default, because it gives a shared goal that unites all the Eldar, something that hastens their goal.
Probably going to walk away from the moot with a satisfied "it's not everything I wanted, but I'll take it"
Pragmatic enough to turn to necromancy in a pinch, so I can see them not hating Soulforging.

Saim-Hann
Fiercely independent, and is very close to the exodites. One of the earliest craftworlds to bugger off.
Rejected Iyanden's empire building for reasons unspecified, but probably "the exodites have the right of it"
Respect our choice to pursue our own path, so soulforging is at worst "sure, you do you"

Ulthwe
Rejects Iyanden's empire building in favor of fighting chaos.
Discovering Tzeentch's curse will earn us a lot of good will from them, given their reliance on seers.
Bringing the Seerlord along will also get us more brownie points. Eldrad will probably be sticking to the seerlord like glue...
Their stance on soul forging is unknown, but i could see it being "whatever it takes."
They are our closest neighbor, in galactic terms.
 
You only consider the conservatives here, assuming that everyone else will fall in line automatically.

But well, many of them are not all that popular, openly leaving behind our own allies to pander to them could easily lose us as much support as it gains.

Would we rather have the supports of the conservatives, who already hate us, and will hate us once more once we start doing stuff, or that of the radicals, with whom we can make common cause?

The art of compromise at a diplomatic summit isn't to make some people happy at the cost of making some people angry. That's would be a failure.

The goal is to make everyone grudgingly content so they sign up to the resulting treaty.

The radicals don't know the counter-factual. They won't know that we could have brought the Ishari and made a divisive political statement by exploiting their presence.

They've no reason to oppose sensible suggestions we make that we can argue for on their own merits. They're starting off neutral.

And Aliaitoc don't hate us. They don't like us, which is not the same.

Bringing the Ishari alienates some people. That makes a common front harder. The more people at alienated, the disproportionately harder it is to work with them, while it's relatively easier to convince people who start off neutral.

I don't think we need the Ishari to be able to talk productively with the radicals. I do think we probably need to avoid bringing them to be likely to deal productively with many conservatives.

Keep in mind that what the Ishari did ?
Yeah, we want to do the same (reforge our soul) and pretty much everyone in the meeting knows that.

What they don't have so far is proof that the reforging can actually be successful (even in theory), they actually practical proof that it can be done.

How? How would they know? I don't think we know IC that we're going to do soul reforging

We've rejected using the Paths. So? Lots of Eldar reject the Paths without going for soul reforging.

The Harlequins don't use the Paths
The Exodites don't use the Paths
Eldar Corsairs don't use the Paths (being a Corsair it's dangerous, but they can survive off the Path for centuries, we're currently basically a Craftworld of Corsairs)
Eldar Rangers don't use the Paths.

Not using the Paths is a standard and normal things that many people at the conference prefer.

OOC, we may even not use soul forging if we keep rolling amazingly. There are theoretical paths to break the Curses with no soul forging required.

Revanchists. Dislike Soulforging, to the point of Kinstrife.

They dislike our vocal rejection of refounding the Dominion. They probably have no idea we may one day reforge our souls.
 
Last edited:
They dislike our vocal rejection of refounding the Dominion. They probably have no idea we may one day reforge our souls.
I was primarily referring to the Ishari vision:
And in some, the worst yet rarest of all, a blinded phoenix with tattered wings and the false-dawn come, and tools of creation are turned against them by their own kin.
Unless living as "planet bound plant people" is also considered rejecting the return of the dominion...
but then Biel-tan might as well start hunting Exodites as well, cos they are just as unlikely to welcome a return of the imperial days.

But I suppose, they could be engaging in yet more self delusion.
 
That seems to be a load of bullshit given we spent points for it during character gen, so I think you are outright wrong here.

We spent points on it, yea, but we spent or gained points on lots of things that have been overtaken by events.

We may, thanks to super-critical rolls, have discovered an even better way to beat the Curse. We may not; but it seems possible; and it should certainly seem possible to other Eldar IC.

I was primarily referring to the Ishari vision:

Unless living as "planet bound plant people" is also considered rejecting the return of the dominion...
but then Biel-tan might as well start hunting Exodites as well, cos they are just as unlikely to welcome a return of the imperial days.

But I suppose, they could be engaging in yet more self delusion.

They may have not even realised the Ishari were still people and thought they were some Haemunculi abomination defiling an Eldar world. I think there are Haemunculi plagues that meld their victims into the scenery in canon. They could easily have been arrogant enough to think they knew best, or, being generous, this could happen after Kairos could subvert their Seers and he fed them false info to make them disbelieve the Ishari and thinks they were actually threats or abominations. Tzeentch might have good reason to want the Ishari gone and think it amusing to use Biel Tan to do it. We just don't know why in rare timelines Biel Tan would have chosen to do this.

Now we know about the Curses, our own forecasts about what other Eldar would have done in the future have to take into account that they may have been acting based on deceptive visions.

The description of a 'blinded Phoenix' takes on a whole new meaning now we've learned of the Curses.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top