Why would we do a cruiser squadron? We don't have any modernized cruiser, only frigates and destroyers, which would be part of battleship task force support.
I'm pretty sure all of the options include at least one cruiser and multiple escorts. The Nettles and War Ketches will be shown off; the difference is how much of the rest of our fleet also will be.

I assume we're not subbing in a cruiser from one of our allies, with them bringing their own bodyguard squads, so we're bringing at least one unrefitted cruiser regardless. Oops?

A Task Fleet is likely to be centered around one of our "real" cruisers; I'm worried that the Squadron might need to be filled out with some of our cruiser technicals, which would be less than impressive. Same with a Battleship Task Group.
 
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Yes and we averted that. Why risk it being back on by provoking them.

Until this moot is over and the other major craftworld told them to stop it, we have not averted that.

Why do people think that Biel-Tan is magically not going to be super hostile to use just because we called the moot here?

Same goes for Alaitoc, even if they aren't in the open warfare stage.
 
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Until this moot is over and the other major craftworld told them to stop it, we have not averted that.

Why do people think that Biel-Tan is magically not going to be super hostile to use just because we called the moot here?

Same goes for Alaitoc, even if they aren't in the open warfare stage.

Because they now have much bigger fish to fry than us, and other Major Craftworlds to prod them into staying focused on those bigger fish, as long as they aren't so pissed that they'll listen to reason from Iyanden. Biel Tan isn't going to ever like us at all. What they may be willing to do is very grudgingly cooperate by staying out of our way as be both get on with complementary tasks. They'll never listen to us, but both of us may listen to Iyanden and Ulthwe and so indirectly collaborate that way.

It's likely to be harder for Ulthwe and Iyanden persuade the to go along with this if we throw the Ishari in their face. We don't want Biel Tan to say "it's us or them", because then everyone loses from the potentially quite significant gains of wide scale collaboration.

And on Biel Tan killing the Ishari in a rare and now averted potential future.

I think it's very important to note that the vision was of a blinded phoenix. Given what we know now about Tzzentch's Curse, I strongly suspect that the Phoenix was blinded because their Seers were deceived by Kairos' false visions, and they were manipulated into attacked based on false information. They may well have been shown something that made them think the Ishari actually were something that needed killed, and then in their typical Biel Tan way ignored any evidence they subsequently encountered to the cointrary.

I'm not white washing them here, it probably still required them to be hyper-aggressive idiots, as other Eldar might have stopped to think, but they could well have had good reason to believe they were doing something necessary, because of their eyes being blinded and being shown falsehoods instead.
 
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[ ] Configuration: Battleship Task Group
Bring a battleship with an appropriate support fleet.


It's been 24 hours.

We'll be appealing to the Radicals by bringing the Dragonlord, and already being a radical. Bringing the Ishari isn't worth the extra pushback on our message from the conservatives. We have an uphill battle already when it comes to them. The point of this is to prove our information, and we can do that without the Ishari, or it wouldn't be an option to leave them behind.

We just de-fanged Beil-Tan. No reason to gamble on the outcome of the Aeldmoot to make a statement that doesn't actually help the Ishari any. The time to push for the adoption of less conservative views is when we have a means of fighting Nurgal's influence, not here at a single meeting when we won't speak to the conservatives again for another century, and they slip back into their old habits over the course of time.
I'm pretty sure all of the options include at least one cruiser and multiple escorts. The Nettles and War Ketches will be shown off; the difference is how much of the rest of our fleet also will be.

I assume we're not subbing in a cruiser from one of our allies, with them bringing their own bodyguard squads, so we're bringing at least one unrefitted cruiser regardless. Oops?
Yes, but in a battleship task force, the battleship takes center stage, allowing us to say, mostly obscure our weak ex civilian caravels behind a bunch of our War Ketch's with a clever fleet formation.
Until this moot is over and the other major craftworld told them to stop it, we have not averted that.

Why do people think that Biel-Tan is magically not going to be super hostile to use just because we called the moot here?

Same goes for Alaitoc, even if they aren't in the open warfare stage.
If we succeed in this, there de-fanged. Still hate us, but can't do anything about it. The less pushback we receive to our revelation, the better our odds of success.
 
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We can play this as climate conference, like, get everyone to agree on the same thing, uniting - then we have to be non-agressive, compromising, lukewarm. We can also play this as faction-creation statement, divisive, showcase our force as a faction, affirm our principles, showcase the allies. Then it's bring everyone no eldar left behind kind of thing. We can also try to do middle ground, a bit of both, which I think for this particular case is probably the best choice. I'd vote for a middle ground plan (like, no Ishari, don't bring everyone and their pets, showcase your strength but not all of it etc).

[] The More the Merrier - Reconciliation BTG
E.g. this works for me.

No, it's only 12+h since the post.
 
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Yes, but in a battleship task force, the battleship takes center stage, allowing us to say, mostly obscure our weak ex civilian caravels behind a bunch of our War Ketch's with a clever fleet formation.
For the random mooks, sure.

For anyone who cares to put the effort into looking - i.e. Alaitoc or Biel-Tan - it'll stand out. And while we probably aren't going to get attacked by them after the moot, they'll certainly take opportunities to embarrass us by pointing this out.
 
[x] Plan: Everybody in the house
-[x] His Sons
-[x] Irsfeial, Emissary of the Ishari
-[x] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
-[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
-[x] Seer Araeniel of Meros
-[x] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
-[x] Zevrin Kal, Blademaster of Arach-Qin
-[x] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
-[x] Elite Bodyguards
--[x] Reduce this
-[x] Special Bodyguards
-[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
-[x] Configuration: Battleship Task Group
-[x] Special: The Serpent of the Stars

Switched the battleship Configuration for the cruiser squadron one. I think it's balanced overall, strong retinue, very small number of elite guards, and a in the middle fleet.
 
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Because they now have much bigger fish to fry than us, and other Major Craftworlds to prod them into staying focused on those bigger fish, as long as they aren't so pissed that they'll listen to reason from Iyanden. Biel Tan isn't going to ever like us at all. What they may be willing to do is very grudgingly cooperate by staying out of our way as be both get on with complementary tasks.

In the same vein that it's currently 20 years after the fall and Biel-Tan should have much bigger problems than us and still chooses as one of their short term goals as: kill us while we are on the other side of the galaxy?

I think you very strongly overestimate how much of a rep change this event will be with the craftworlds that hate us.

They might not be able to do open warfare anymore, but you can bet they will go right up to that line and try to fuck with us as much as they can.



Iyanden and co are mostly much invited because of the weight that it lead the overall meeting so we got more people coming on their own due to how big it is. Also because it makes it easy to call out Biel-Tan and get the other major craftworlds to sit them back down.


Functionally the big craftworlds that matter here are Saim-Hann and Ulthwe because we might actually get a full alliance going with both of them here.
 
We can play this as climate conference, like, get everyone to agree on the same thing, uniting - then we have to be non-agressive, compromising, lukewarm. We can also play this as faction-creation statement, divisive, showcase our force as a faction, affirm our principles, showcase the allies. Then it's bring everyone no eldar left behind kind of thing. We can also try to do middle ground, a bit of both, which I think for this particular case is probably the best choice. I'd vote for a middle ground plan (like, no Ishari, don't bring everyone and their pets, showcase your strength but not all of it etc).


E.g. this works for me.
We want a strong show of our assets either way, so the people who are in need of military aid come to us, and the people who have strong military power respect ours. We want the best foot forward for the expansion of our alliance to the north after all.
For the random mooks, sure.

For anyone who cares to put the effort into looking - i.e. Alaitoc or Biel-Tan - it'll stand out. And while we probably aren't going to get attacked by them after the moot, they'll certainly take opportunities to embarrass us by pointing this out.
Lol. I Think Beil-Tan will be too busy frothing at the mouth over a prestigious Crone ship being something our alliance has command of, to notice a light cruiser or two positioned between bunch of frigates.
Switched the battleship Configuration for the cruiser squadron one. I think it's balanced overall, strong retinue, very small number of elite guards, and a in the middle fleet.
But Battleship Task Group is making our actual warship the focus of our fleet, rather than refitted civilian vessels. Assuming we are bringing a combat brig, that puts the megalance at it's front as the primary eye drawer. Remind people that we have starlances.

[X] The More the Merrier - Reconciliation BTG
Voting. It's been 24 hours.
 
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I Think Beil-Tan will be too busy frothing at the mouth over a prestigious Crone ship being something our alliance has command of, to notice a light cruiser or two positioned between bunch of frigates.
I think one of Biel-Tan's priorities in this moot is going to be gathering intel on our military capabilities.

Sure, they'll froth at the Sword of Vaul. They'll also plot how they're going to take it from us, and that means looking at the rest of our fleet to see what they'd need to bust through to land a boarding action.
 
We can play this as climate conference, like, get everyone to agree on the same thing, uniting - then we have to be non-agressive, compromising, lukewarm. We can also play this as faction-creation statement, divisive, showcase our force as a faction, affirm our principles, showcase the allies. Then it's bring everyone no eldar left behind kind of thing. We can also try to do middle ground, a bit of both, which I think for this particular case is probably the best choice. I'd vote for a middle ground plan (like, no Ishari, don't bring everyone and their pets, showcase your strength but not all of it etc).

I agree that it's like a climate conference.

In my view, I think it's not unlikely that we'll, as a species, encounter collective action problems when we try to deal with the Curses.

We'll need to perform social engineering to shift the perception of a god amongst as much of the Eldar population as we can to make it stick.

We'll find that we can weaken Tzeentch's curse by refraining from scrying for a turn, but it's less effective the more people scry in that period.

Or we'll want to turn the curse back on Kairos by staging fake scenes and have other people scry on them, another thing that works much better the more people are collaborating on sustaining the fictions by avoiding scrying on contradictory scenes.

Or, down the line, we'll need to assemble a vast warhost to assault Nurgle's Garden.

All those things will be harder to do if we piss off the conservatives now more than we need to and make it harder for the neutrals to persuade them to play along, or worst case after hearing the news at the start of the conference they refuse to share a platform with an Ishari and take their bat and ball and allies and go home to come up with their own plans that won't help and may even conflict with our plans.

I think it's likely that we'll want to address some of the Curses collectively as a species, so the climate conference is the key metaphor. We need to build as broad a coalition as possible, even if it's shallow and many people hate each other in it. Just as in the real world climate conferences happen with some participants literally in full scale war with each other.

I think one of Biel-Tan's priorities in this moot is going to be gathering intel on our military capabilities.

Sure, they'll froth at the Sword of Vaul. They'll also plot how they're going to take it from us, and that means looking at the rest of our fleet to see what they'd need to bust through to land a boarding action.

As I understand it we've been told that if Biel Tan take such kinetic action against us the Harlequins will murder their leadership, so I don't think they present that kind of threat anymore. They're an ideological and political threat. It's a Cold War, not a potential hot one.
 
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But Battleship Task Group is making our actual warship the focus of our fleet, rather than refitted civilian vessels. Assuming we are bringing a combat brig, that puts the megalance at it's front as the primary eye drawer. Remind people that we have starlances.

The refitted civilian cruisers would still appear in the battleship configuration though. The focus will always be the special flagship, which is why I figured it'd be okay if we went with a mid tier fleet. We'd still achieve our purpose of posturing with the fact that we have the special flagship.
 
All those things will be harder to do if we piss off the conservatives now more than we need to and make it harder for the neutrals to persuade them to play along, or worst case after hearing the news at the start of the conference they refuse to share a platform with an Ishari and take their bat and ball and allies and go home to come up with their own plans that won't help and may even conflict with our plans.
Another thing that could make them harder is if we bring the conservatives in on false pretenses, especially if those result in curse fix plans that end up not extending to the transEldarists.

They're an ideological and political threat. It's a Cold War, not a potential hot one.
Yes, but people still make plans for kinetic action during cold wars, they just shelve them. The point is that they will notice our technicals and can use that to embarrass us, not that they might attack.
 
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Another thing that could make them harder is if we bring the conservatives in on false pretenses, especially if those result in curse fix plans that end up not extending to the transEldarists.

But we, IC, wouldn't be bringing them in under false pretences. We're tying to preserve a scenario where Ulthwe and/or Iyanden can bring us both in to collective plans that weaken the Curses, and those two Craftworlds are unlikely to come up with trans-eldarist only solutions.

None of the options I suggested above required soul modification, and they're all things I could see happening, amongst many other similarly collective solutions.
 
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In my view, I think it's not unlikely that we'll encounter collective action problems when we try to deal with the Curses.
Absolutely, at the very least proto dark eldar are going to be a problem here. Otoh, if we need all of the eldar race to cooperate, the difference a couple asshole craftworlds will make won't be that big.
 
All those things will be harder to do if we piss off the conservatives now more than we need to and make it harder for the neutrals to persuade them to play along, or worst case after hearing the news at the start of the conference they refuse to share a platform with an Ishari and take their bat and ball and allies and go home to come up with their own plans that won't help and may even conflict with our plans.

Rather than going back and forth about this, I think we should clarify who's actually conservative. Like in this post for example.

Also, since the conservative topic came up again, of the major craftworlds, I would say only Alaitoc outright has Conservative.

Biel-Tan definitely does not have it: they have no problems slaughtering sacred cows in the name of victory (*cough* void spinner *cough*)

I would even go so far as saying Iyanden might have Innovative (but in another direction than we do), given most of the creative solutions we have in Canon come from Iyanden:
- Repurposing Tears of Isha (divine communication devices) as Phylacteries -> Iyanden
- Inventing/Repurposing the Infinity circuit as an artificial afterlife -> Iyanden
- Using ghost warriors to supplement the living in an emergency (Less creative, more pragmatic) -> Iyanden
- Ynnead -> you guessed it, Iyanden.
 
Rather than going back and forth about this, I think we should clarify who's actually conservative. Like in this post for example.
For all that we call ourselves radicals, we have lots in common with the major craftworlds
With Ulthwe and Alaitoc: "We need to destroy our ancient enemies, "... and then at the same time Chaos/Necrons/Orks!
With Biel-Tan: "These worlds are not for you" even if our first impulse to finding xenos or humans on maiden worlds won't be "exterminatus"
With Iyanden: "We can build something new/great from the pieces we have left"
With Saim-Hann: "Imma go do my own thing, with ..."
 
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Rather than going back and forth about this, I think we should clarify who's actually conservative. Like in this post for example.

We have a QM post that outright called out Biel-Tan as part of the conservative block due to "No-Soul-modification" ever.

Edit:
Just to add the quote if people missed it.
In this case, it's actually more pre-Fall conservativism ("Thou Shalt Not Modify Thy Soul Ever") but yeah, they're militant revanchist jerks and they've been militant revanchist jerks from the very start.
(Insert image of Beil-Tan guardian with crudely photoshopped ballcap reading "Make The Aeldari Great Again" perched on the tip of their pointy helmet)
 
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Consider the following plan to deal with the Curses. It's the most straightforward, even if it's probably very hard to actually pull off.

1a) Locate, send an expedition to the right Croneworld, and retrieve the Deathsword.
1b) Do a massive scavenger hunt across the Crone Worlds, True Stars, and dead Craftworlds to try to find a functioning Voidcannon.
2) Spoof Kairos with visions of fabricated scenarios to make him believe there's an irresistible opportunity for him somewhere to lure him out and perma-kill him with either the weaponised Death-of-the-Universe-Foreseen or by throwing him outside reality.
3) Work together to raise a mighty host of Eldar, pooling all our knowledge and tools to build a military force of tremendous strength
4) At the moment of Horus' confrontation with the Emperor, invade Nurgle's Garden and seek to free Isha from her bondage and evacuate her to the Webway.
5) If Isha escaped and lived, simultaneously have Eldar across the galaxy perform rituals of worship to Isha as Queen of the Phoenix Court-in-Exile and bonesing new temples to her in her new aspext into existence.

It might not work, and it's certainly very hard, but it seems like it wouldn't require soulforging.

What it would require is that all Eldar put their differences aside and work together rather than prioritising scoring political points and hammering at each other's sensitivities to make their differences rather than commonalities most salient.

And yes; in that scenario, Nixon's Madman Theory applies. The apparently least rational person in the negotiations has an advantage. That's just the way it is though.

We have a QM post that outright called out Biel-Tan as part of the conservative block due to "No-Soul-modification" ever.

Edit:
Just to add the quote if people missed it.

Something I've mentioned before is that as I understand it the Conservatives are morally conservative. They're not socially conservative.

The Exodites are the arch social conservatives. We're ourselves much more socially conservative than the Path following Craftworlds, who are incredibly socially radical.

There are dimensions to small c conservatism. The Craftworlds differ in what they want to conserve. We want to conserve our pre-Fall mentality but are ready to jettison the pre-Fall moral codes that said soulforging was sinful. The 'Conservatives' have embraced radical and fundamental lifestyle and personal mental changes (the Paths are themselves very transhumanist in a way, as they involve ritual and psychic practices to edit one's own personality and only express a fraction of yourself at a time, instead suppressing the great majority of who you are until and unless you adopt a Path that embraces that part). However, they've said sticking to the pre-Fall moral codes is worth the sacrifice of living such incredibly limited lives.

This is why lots of Craftworlders abandon the path to become rangers. Corsairs, or worse. As a ranger or Corsair they can express the full range of their personality at once.

This indicates that the Conservative craftworlds are very unlikely to be at all stagnant at the moment, they're likely to be going through a dynamic ferment of cultural change as the impact on the Paths on individuals, institutions, and wider society and the economy work there way through, continually throwing up problems to be solved and opportunities to exploit.

We shouldn't be throwing stones like stagnant around, the other Craftworlds may become so, but at the moment they're the exact opposite.

We've been spared that as we've decided to just keep mostly acting and thinking like we did Pre-Fall. We've lost our technology, but we've not fundamentally changed we we are mentally as the Craftworld Eldar have just done. We're just putting up with suffering more from the Thirst than an Eldar on the Path does.

I suspect that's why Biel Tan hates us so much. We clash with them on both axes.

We're morally radical and socially conservative.

They're morally conservative and socially radical.

Our social conservatism is a threat to all the socially radically Craftworlds leaders as were an example that perhaps their populations don't need to radically transform their minds, lifestyles, social institutions, etc, and can instead just keep those as they were before. Change is hard, and we're an implicit suggestion that change isn't necessary.

Our existence encourages other Craftworld's people either to defect to live somewhere less unpleasant (being on the Paths is apparently both very hard and a horrible experience for the Eldar), or to try to find new leaders who don't want to embrace the Paths. This is particularly true as our moral radicalism probably isn't obvious yet.

This is potentially even a bigger long term problem for the leaders of the neutral Craftworlds. They've asked their people to make some enormous and very hard sacrifices, asking people to give up most of who they are most of the time, becoming shadows of their true selves that they could be before the Fall. And unlike the morally Conservative Craftworlds, they can't even use the justification that the other approaches would be a mortal sin, as they no longer care about whether it was a sin or not. If they no longer care about trans-eldarism, any success we have will make the decision to adopt the Parhs and the leaders who made it look foolish.
 
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The refitted civilian cruisers would still appear in the battleship configuration though. The focus will always be the special flagship, which is why I figured it'd be okay if we went with a mid tier fleet. We'd still achieve our purpose of posturing with the fact that we have the special flagship.
Yes, it's going to draw a lot of eyes, but we'll still have our own fleet there, and what type of force it is will draw attention. A cruiser squad is going to focus on cruisers, whereas they'd be background otherwise. Battleship has our formation arrayed to most prominently display our battleship, and it's special Megalance it's modified specifically for.

@Alratan I think there are more conventional, Psycher spell or ritual related ways of dealing with the eye of Tzeench, rather than a hundred years plot to outwit fateweaver and Tzeench. Maybe just do the research and see what in quest characters come up with.
 
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Yes, it's going to draw a lot of eyes, but we'll still have our own fleet there, and what type of force it is will draw attention. A cruiser squad is going to focus on cruisers, whereas they'd be background otherwise. Battleship has our formation arrayed to most prominently display our battleship, and it's special Megalance it's modified specifically for.

I think one battleship leading a squadron of cruisers is more eye catching than one leading a squadron of battleships, tbh.

@Alratan I think there are more conventional, Psycher spell or ritual related ways of dealing with the eye of Tzeench, rather than a hundred years plot to outwit fateweaver and Tzeench. Maybe just do the research and see what in quest characters come up with

Given the way sorcery works in setting, I think that successfully deceiving Kairos on a grand scale by spoofing his eavesdropping or denying oursef scrying on a mass scale are the kinds of things that would be part of a ritual to weaken that Curse.

It's a species wide curse so I'm expecting that many potential solutions are also species wide.

Just mitigating the Curse's impact by spoofing Kairos with staged visions is likely to work better tha more factions are in on it, as then it's easier to avoid people scrying on thi mg s that reveal others were falsified.

Or, we might want people to agree not to independently try to spoof Kairos, saving this up as a surprise to lure him out as in the scenario I sketched above.
 
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