Remove ads

A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

Reader mode
Randino Treviani said:
I think there was a fundamental miscommunication or understanding of the refit mechanics in the first place, which would have effected what we voted for in the main turn 3 vote, and that you should just tell us how much AP we needed for the original plan, and then do a follow up vote or simultaneous vote on what to do with the leftover AP.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
you wouldn't have leftovers. The refits called for in the plan are something like 20ish AP worth of refitting because it's doing 2-3 armor refits per detachment for like a dozen detachments. which is why I was like "are you sure that you didn't mean something else?"
because it seems like what you actually wanted, in intent and based on previous thread discussion, was to mostly get rid of just the trauma plates that are explicitly poor, and maybe put a few currently difficult to replace dudes like Warcasters in heavier armor, which would be absolutely doable for a huge chunk of your army with 9 points of investment in it.

anyway.
 
Last edited:
[X] 10ebbor10's Mixed Math

man the army complete army redesign we will have to do after the short term fires are out, and we got most of the gear we want to build the units without endless refits is going to be wild.

Because i sure as hell don't think retrofitting our current army is even remotely worth is AP wise for anything but the very short term.
 
Mechanis said:
you wouldn't have leftovers. The refits called for in the plan are something like 20ish AP worth of refitting because it's doing 2-3 armor refits per detachment for like a dozen detachments. which is why I was like "are you sure that you didn't mean something else?"
because it seems like what you actually wanted, in intent and based on previous thread discussion, was to mostly get rid of just the trauma plates that are explicitly poor, and maybe put a few currently difficult to replace dudes like Warcasters in heavier armor, which would be absolutely doable for a huge chunk of your army with 9 points of investment in it.

anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That was my understanding as well.
 
Remove ads
Gods, God-constructs, and Godlike Entities; A Quick Primer
  • Informational
    • I think the time has come to talk about gods, as well as godlike entities that technically aren't gods. There are effectively three types of entity that can be reasonably called 'gods': Natural Gods, God-Constructs, and Godlike Entities. both natural gods and god-constructs are by definition rooted in the Immaterium, while godlike entities are generally those which do not use it, such as the C'tan or the Tyranid Hivemind.


    Gods, Natural and Otherwise​
    Natural gods, the most prominent of which are the original three Ruinous Powers, are a sort of 'living narrative' created by the impact of psychically active races (even if their impact/sensitivity level is extremely minor) on the Immaterium. Like all living things, they possess a desire to continue living, and do this by spreading their story through worshipers, and exerting their power to bring the materium more in line with their story's themes (generally on a temporary or otherwise limited basis.) This, obviously, can be both good and bad, depending on the god in question, but gods are rarely fully good or evil. This is because of one key fact: naturally occurring gods never lose any of their themes or domains, unless specifically stolen by a different god; they simply have different aspects emphasized or deemphasised and new ones added as their story mutates and changes through different forms and people's worship. This makes actually combating a naturally occurring god extremely difficult, as the primary method of doing so is to turn their own narrative against them with a contradictory one—to face a god of Murder, one might come cast in the role of the Justice-Seeking Hero or the Dread Avenger, and similar themes—yet because naturally-occuring gods can encompass mutually contradictory themes, such as Isha being both the goddess of Nature Unbound and the goddess of Mastery Over Nature, they can consciously choose to express a different narrative that itself counters yours—and so a battle between gods is as much a matter of each participant pivoting their aspects for advantage, which gives a distinct edge to older gods whose stories have been told and retold and conflated and merged so many times that they encompass vast numbers of different themes. This also means that the older a god is, the more difficult it is to cut it off from worship—for gods can have many faces and many names, acquired as they age, and so seemingly unrelated cults may be in truth worshiping different faces of the same god.

    God-constructs, meanwhile, are deliberate creations of Godsmithing, a psychic discipline effectively lost to the galaxy with the disappearance of the Old Ones either during or after the War in Heaven (there were enough temporal shenanigans going on in that war that it's not actually clear when the Old Ones disappeared, chronologically speaking, only that they weren't around by the time the early Aeldari Empire was picking up the pieces in the aftermath), though a handful of races or individuals have worked out the rudiments of the practice since. Because they must be formed whole, god-constructs are effectively incapable of expressing contradictory narratives—even extremely closely related concepts like Brutal Cunning and Cunning Brutality cannot exist in the same god-construct, which is why the Orks have Gork and Mork and not Gorkamorka as originally intended (as the construct fissioned into the Twin Gods in the process of its creation). Similarly, they cannot gain additional narrative facets unless those facets are in harmony with or supportive of their core narrative, which limits how they can grow to an enormous degree. On the other hand, within their narrative god-constructs are extremely strong—enough that their narrative can frequently overpower what should be appropriate counter-narratives.


    So what's with the Aeldari gods then?​
    Simple: They're both. yes even Slaanesh. This is why the Pantheon is and was so powerful, so unprecedented—they began as natural gods, who can grow and change in ways god-constructs can't, and were then enhanced with Godsmithing by the Old Ones at the pinnacle of that race's power and knowledge of the craft, a height no other (at least in the milky way) has reached before or since. Slaanesh, meanwhile, might be a crude imitation of that peerless skill, but they too are a naturally occurring god who was enhanced by Godsmithing—however crude and fumbling—and that is how the Dark Prince can match the other three Ruinous Powers despite being but a mayfly in comparison. No god has commanded the Immaterium as Asuryan once did with the Edict, no god could walk unfettered between materium and immaterium as Isha did in her role as Everqueen, no god could hold the fate of all mortals in hand as Morai-Heg once did—not even the Chaos Gods, however much they might proclaim otherwise. The Pantheon was unprecedented, and even the original three Ruinous Powers are 'just' especially ancient and powerful natural gods with a truly dizzying breadth of faces, names and themes.


    Daemons and Devas​
    The other major factor is Daemons and Devas. These are effectively 'subordinate' gods or god-constructs of another, more powerful god—sometimes created by expressing some facet of themselves as an independent entity, sometimes as lesser gods subsumed by a greater god's narrative, and so on. Daemons are specifically those of the Ruinous Powers, and generally fairly malevolent—essentially, all Daemons are Deva, but not all Deva are Daemons. Of course, as they are technically gods themselves, a Deva or Daemon with enough strength can create their own subordinate Deva or Daemons, who can in turn create their own servants, and so on and so on, each layer empowering every layer above it and being in turn empowered in a highly efficient feedback loop—and here the mad genius of the Old Ones is laid bare, because the Pantheon seemingly had no Deva—because every Aeldari was technically a Deva of the entire Pantheon, incarnated in flesh. Now, Deva can survive the deaths of the gods they are Deva of—and even usurp them, becoming the master in that relationship or just outright killing them and taking their place, under the right circumstances—but this requires being what is known as an 'exalted' at minimum. Exalted Deva (or Daemons) are the most powerful of a god's servants, commanding vast legions of subordinate Deva who often command vast legions themselves, and there are rarely more than a handful of such entities at any given time. If only because such beings can grow ambition and seek to cast down a god they serve, as Skarbrand once did. An Exalted with enough strength can also break free of their servitude, under the right circumstances, taking all their legions of subordinates (and the power they represent) with them, and here went Be'lakor, the First Ascendant of Chaos and now the Lord of Treason.


    Godlike Entities​
    In addition, there are many other entities who can be reasonably called 'gods' despite not even using the Immaterium, such as the Tyranid Hivemind or the C'tan, whose powers are typically rooted in command of the mathematical rules of the Materium rather than the narrative ones of the immaterium. This does not necessarily always hold true, but generally speaking godlike entities are rooted in the Materium, rather than the Immaterium, and their powers—while often resembling those available to gods or their servants—are ultimately rooted in the Real, representing deep understanding of or instinctual command over the natural, causal forces of reality. Though of course, there is nothing which prohibits such entities from affecting the Immaterium, especially those whose powers are derived from knowledge rather than instinct. Or even on accident, as is the case for the Shadow in the Warp caused by the Hive-mind.


    The Anatolian,( The Emperor of Mankind,) Adem Kadmon( The Anathema) ​
    The Emperor is, like the Aeldari gods, a unique existence: a product of crude godsmithing who is not a god, a creation that can grow unfettered, a man as flawed and limited as any other yet commanding strength no man can match, a born ruler who has for hundreds of lifetimes rejected a crown, all these things and more. He lives as any other man, growing into his strength and knowledge anew with each life, yet he is undying in a way even the Ruinous Ones cannot undo, reborn again and again throughout human history—though there can be many, many centuries or even millennia between his incarnations as his soul regains its strength from the strain of averting True Death. Most critical he is The Anathema: an impossibility, a paradox: a Pariah whose negative-soul is so impossibly strong it has looped back to present as a normal Psyker of godlike strength, but whose very touch is utterly in opposition to the Gods of the Immaterium. His existence is still yet unknown to any of the major players of the current era, for he has remained in the shadows for the majority of his existence, yet the time is nigh for him to claim his long-rejected crown, however reluctantly, and echos of his opening moves are already being felt—even if it will be centuries yet before his next incarnation is born…
     
    Last edited:
  • Informational
    • ...

    Wow, that's creative.

    "The Emperor is a Pariah of such strength that he has--in effect--stack underflowed and become the most powerful Psyker in history."

    Yeah, if swapping everyone but our most critical dudes out with Brigantine can be done, so be it. But it looks like Karnax made this work?

    [X] Plan: Spread the refits as wide as possible
     
    Last edited:
    Mechanis said:
    every Aeldari was technically a Deva of the entire Pantheon, incarnated in flesh. Now, Deva can survive the deaths of the gods they are Deva of—and even usurp them, becoming the master in that relationship or just outright killing them and taking their place, under the right circumstances—but this requires being what is known as an 'exalted' at minimum.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    This gives me a probably bad idea. If we were Devas of the pantheon, does that mean that through effort and strife, we could ascend an Eldar to the Position Vaul or one of the other gods once held?

    Vaul is dead, but we were all Piece of Him. And so in Time Vaul may live again through us.
    [X] Plan: Spread the refits as wide as possible
     
    Last edited:
    All right, I shall record all maths here so that you can double-check if I didn't mess up. Calculating AP only.

    vsh said:
    1) all battlecasting: infantry and jetbikers in VGW, psykers in Ithilmar
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Battlecasting is a detachment
    All psykers use hardsuit, so 1 swap/detachment
    Infantry has hardsuits and trauma plates, so 2 swaps /detachment.
    There are 7 battlecasting detachments, 4 in Warcasting Warhost, 1 in each of the 3 available Heavy Militia warhosts
    All together 3 swaps/detachment, 21 swaps in total.


    vsh said:
    2) all assault and heavy: infantry and jetbikers in VGW until we run out of VGW or AP
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    We have 2 types of detachments, each of which has 3 types of armour, thus unfucking 1 type of detachment takes 3 swaps. Unless we limit to cutting out trauma plates, which reduces to 1/det
    Those detachments exist, primarily and to reduce the mental load for now, in Heavy Militia, which has 1 in each per warhost. Thus 3 warhosts*2 applicable dets*3 (or 1) armour types=18 (or 6) swaps
    All together 27 swaps minimum, 39 maximum, either 6 AP with 2 armour swaps left or 8 AP with 1 armour swap left, assuming gear is not an issue. Probably is, but too much numbers.
    Anyway, this also gives us either 30 or 40 detachments for whom we can give out up to 3 types of gear per detachment, no idea how.
    But since someone apparently bigbrained the plan, I'll intead move along and read the Godpost.
     
    The Deva thing also reminds me of an idea I had for how to replace Psychomatons, at least in combat roles. Use Shards of Khaine to imprint Khaine's drive and powers onto wraithbone, to effectively make artificial Devas of Khaine, and then use those. They'd be undirectable berserkers and probably have negative effects on the mental health of nearby eldar, but they likely wouldn't be Psychomatons conceptually, unless this was literally how Psychomatons worked.
     
    vsh said:
    1) all battlecasting: infantry and jetbikers in VGW, psykers in Ithilmar

    2) all assault and heavy: infantry and jetbikers in VGW until we run out of VGW or AP

    3) if AP still left, militia line detachments: militia infantry and jetbikers in brigandines
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    All battlecasting detachments is 7 touches to put psykers in Ithilmar, 14 more to put everyone else in VGW. 4.2 AP spent, 77 Ithilmar spent, 371 VGW spent.

    Hearthguard Skirmishers have all their elite squads in Hardsuits, though we'll be missing the Needlestorm IFV crewmen in Voidsuits (probably not worth the AP to ever deal with), and there are two in the Grand Warcasting Circle Warhost. 0.4 AP, 72 (2x36) Voidsuits.

    Hearthguard Line are the stiffeners for the 3 Heavy Militia Warhosts. They... report 44 units of Hardsuits each, but I'm counting 45. In any case that's 0.6 AP and 135 VGW to equip.

    578 VGW spent out of our 728, so 150 left. 5.2 AP spent, 3.8 remain.

    There are three Hearthguard Light Support in the regular Militia Warhosts. They use 32... oh, the third crewman in the Star Flare Attack Skimmer is in a Voidsuit, that's where the one-off is coming from. 32 hardsuits x3 is 96 more VGW and .6 more AP. 54 / 57 VGW remaining, 3.2 AP.

    Militia Line Detachments have Hearthguard in them. 18 hardsuits each, we've got enough VGW to cover three. We use up the last of the VGW hitting both Militia Line in the Grand Warcasting Circle and the Militia Line in the 2nd Heavy Militia. .6 more AP spent, 2.4 left.

    Brigandine spam time! We'll have enough so I'm not going to bother counting. Replacing all trauma plates in 12 militia detachments, starting with the 2 Militia Line in the Grand Warcasting, the Militia Line, Assault, and Heavy in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Militia Heavy Warhosts, and one Militia Light Support in the 2nd Militia Heavy, at which point our AP runs out.

    We also hand out the pistols in some manner, I'm sure someone has ideas. Note that this leaves a fair few Guardian squads in the various Militia detachments without upgraded armor, but we ran out of VGW before we ran out of AP, so I'm not going to worry about it.
     
    And I'm feeling pretty slow at the moment.

    [X] Plan: Spread the refits as wide as possible

    Mithrill said:
    We have 2 types of detachments, each of which has 3 types of armour, thus unfucking 1 type of detachment takes 3 swaps.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    One note: the voidsuits show up on the vehicle crewmen who aren't exposed to fire. We can probably ignore those and just let them get swapped out when we swap the vehicles out, which we'll do eventually.

    The mixed trauma plates and hardsuits is still an utter pain, though, yes.
     
    Last edited:
    dgr11897 said:
    The Deva thing also reminds me of an idea I had for how to replace Psychomatons, at least in combat roles. Use Shards of Khaine to imprint Khaine's drive and powers onto wraithbone, to effectively make artificial Devas of Khaine, and then use those. They'd be undirectable berserkers and probably have negative effects on the mental health of nearby eldar, but they likely wouldn't be Psychomatons conceptually, unless this was literally how Psychomatons worked.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Wouldn't it be easier to steal Mentats from Dune and just make them remote controlled? Eldar should already have robust enough brains to pull it off - question is only in training and what type of connection to use for control.
     
    Candesce said:
    One note: the voidsuits show up on the vehicle crewmen who aren't exposed to fire. We can probably ignore those and just let them get swapped out when we swap the vehicles out, which we'll do eventually.

    The mixed trauma plates and hardsuits is still an utter pain, though, yes.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Noted, good to remember. Not making plan however, numbers hurt too much today to count armor pieces, just counting AP from the goals lain down by vsh
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top