If that was ever created, the first time we encounter a imprisioned ctan, the craft world is going to see a solid line of pie's, going from the air cannon to our faces.

It will be called the great pie festival of Vau-Vulkesh
We have to test our prototype homing missiles and torpedoes.
Yranberry pies make an excellent substitute.

You know how eldar missiles are typically smaller than those of other races?
Well, they're about the size and shape of a muffin :V.
 
I don't think the Harlequins would prank us with pies.

I think they would:
*Tilt every painting in our halls.
*Swap the faces on our public statues and then move them around when no one is looking at them.
*Redo the decoration on our weapons without our permission. ("I SPENT AN ENTIRE YEAR FORGING THIS! WHY IS IT SUDDENLY COVERED IN THESE UGLY GREEN TILES?")
*Replace our tapestries with burnt replicas only to stash the originals in random peoples' closets.
 
so recently got told some lore and i don't know if it's canon here but appearantly the avatars of Khaine Grew in the craftworlds

Instead, Khaine was rent into fragments. Each shard came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God. To this day, these murderous Avatars of Khaine are still awoken to lead the Asuryani to war.

appearantly from the 8th edition codex but it feels weird to think about the fact there could be an avatar of Khaine growing in our craftworld
 
so recently got told some lore and i don't know if it's canon here but appearantly the avatars of Khaine Grew in the craftworlds

Instead, Khaine was rent into fragments. Each shard came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God. To this day, these murderous Avatars of Khaine are still awoken to lead the Asuryani to war.

appearantly from the 8th edition codex but it feels weird to think about the fact there could be an avatar of Khaine growing in our craftworld
and most important is the heavily warded reliquary, an inverted pyramid concealed by cunning artifice beneath the great statue of the war-god in the main pyramid. It is here that the greatest relic-weapons and those shards of the War God held by the Craftworld are placed, for times when they are needed.
Vau-Vulkesh apparently had some shards before the temple was created.
 
so recently got told some lore and i don't know if it's canon here but appearantly the avatars of Khaine Grew in the craftworlds

Instead, Khaine was rent into fragments. Each shard came to rest within the wraithbone core of a craftworld, where it took root and grew into an Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God. To this day, these murderous Avatars of Khaine are still awoken to lead the Asuryani to war.

appearantly from the 8th edition codex but it feels weird to think about the fact there could be an avatar of Khaine growing in our craftworld
Vau-Vulkesh apparently had some shards before the temple was created.
Initially, we were basically just keeping Khaine's shards in a closet somewhere before we decided he needed a temple.
 
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???
This is completely wrong on pretty much every level.
Regarding PD vs CIWB, see Mechanis' post here:
So look. I appreciate the attempted correction as much as anyone else but... uh

I'm here backreading, scratching my head, because the quote you helpfully provided uh, supports what -I- was trying to say.
I don't wanna be rude here, so lets walk through it, yeah?

You have effectively just described Grav-weapons being used for point defense. Which, yes, is absolutely a thing you can do after developing Grav-weapons. There's actually two kinds; vehicle scale ones that are only good against smallcraft (and missiles) but very very good at that role, or "Close-In Weapons Batteries"--Superheavy scale weapons which, while somewhat less effective against smallcraft, are actually powerful enough to inflict meaningful damage to another Voidship at close range.

I think the part you missed is that less effective does not mean ineffective.
And its worth repeating, so say it again with me: less effective is not the same as ineffective.

What this means in practical, usable terms is close in batteries are dual purpose weapons, good at small craft shoot-downs and heavy enough to do damage not get nosold by capital size defenses.
I think it would be helpful if you tried mentally relabeling 'Close in batteries' to one of 'Heavy Point Defense'(being literally twice the gun by space as pd turrets) or 'extra light naval guns(light naval being a term already used, and half the size as the 4 space emplacements).

Like, there's some failing to understand how and why this is important, so here's a bit of a word problem: If the zar-tann transport ship we were discussing (w/ 2 pd and 3 ciwb, or heavy pd if you will) is attacked by torpedoes, fighters, or the kind of ordnance that point defense is used for: How many guns do they engage that threat with?
The answer is Five. They have five guns capable of engaging those targets. (Your quoted post explicity says they can shoot those things so.. I don't know what to tell you)
Follow up question: Which guns fire first? The answer to that is the big and long range ones.
The PD guns might be the most accurate, but they only get a chance to if the first three shots miss.

Where this gets into strategy would be when you start getting into 'how many' times do the CIWB guns heavy PD(2 size) turrets get to fire before the light pd turrets(1 space each) get to open up.

If even the lightest of proper naval guns have say, twice the range of an equivalent smaller vehicle scale weapon, then this means a shoot-down attempt looks like this:
Fighter/missile hostile launch:
3 heavy pd intercept attempts
Missile moves closer
3 heavy pd attempts, plus 2 light pd intercept attempts
salvo has to get through eight actual rolls to connect if you have proper and layered pd with outer and inner ring. This may actually be relevant if a hostile salvo is 3 torpedo launchers strong: thats 6 tubes for eldar vessels.

Thats why that ship has 8 space worth of mixed pd.

Thought for the day: I'll take a -1 to hit with 2 rerolls over a +0 to hit and 1 ANY time, especially if I get more rolls due to longer engagement range, and double especially when/where enemy volume of fire is considered/concerned.
Thought for the day #2: the most basic, unmilitarized civilian ketch can fit 7 light torpedo tubes using only weapon mounts(heavy downgraded to triple light for simplicity's sake). Two present in an enemy fleet means an opening salvo of 14 missiles, and a single space of hanger per puts four squadrons on the field to protect those missiles against defense squadrons.

Its worth pointing out that the current starship weapon table (reference: turn 5 capital design) is entirely missing rapid fire las(and other) weaponry to use for PD. This is a important oversight -
Strongly consider including action plans with some thought towards developing better las weaponry. Don't use lascannons(or lances) for pd: stick a multilaser in there. right now we don't have the option ( don't quote me on that, I haven't quite checked if the winning action plan for last turn went for it as of yet.) (visual aid ) Macrocannons are... not very well known for their prodigious rate of fire.

edit: minor typo fixes
 
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Its worth pointing out that the current starship weapon table (reference: turn 5 capital design) is entirely missing rapid fire las(and other) weaponry to use for PD. This is a important oversight -
Strongly consider including action plans with some thought towards developing better las weaponry. Don't use lascannons(or lances) for pd: stick a multilaser in there. right now we don't have the option ( don't quote me on that, I haven't quite checked if the winning action plan for last turn went for it as of yet.) (visual aid ) Macrocannons are... not very well known for their prodigous rate of fire.
Multilasers wouldn't work for PD, because it likely wouldn't have enough damage to be useful.

Also, PD uses vehicle scale weapons. For example, a battleship has 180 vehicle scale weapons per PD slot, while a cruiser has 16 superheavy weapons per CIWS slot. (I know those are different hull sizes, but its the closest comparison available)

The thing is, 1 good hit from a vehicle grade weapon will probably kill a fighter (especially in the case of fatecaster weapons). So it makes sense that in terms of defending against fighters, its better to have 5 times as many guns instead of longer range (or 10 times as many guns if you use the same amount of CIWS space for PD)
 
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1 good hit from a vehicle grade weapon will probably kill a fighter (especially in the case of fatecaster weapons).
Depends on if it's a light fighter or a heavy fighter. Light, sure; heavy might take a few good hits.

Of course, as you point out, space-equivalent PD has an order of magnitude more guns, so even if it took three hits or so PD's still ahead of the game.

CIWB might work better for mutual support, where one ship is shooting down strike craft and munitions aimed at a different ship. Then again, maybe the fact that CIWB are actually scaled to do meaningful amounts of damage to warships means firing them in the general direction of nearby friendlies is ill-advised. Who knows?
 
well our only current close in weapons battery is fatesheer, so not only can it not hit our ships, but it can't miss enemy fighters harassing nearby warships either.
 
So look. I appreciate the attempted correction as much as anyone else but... uh

I'm here backreading, scratching my head, because the quote you helpfully provided uh, supports what -I- was trying to say.
I don't wanna be rude here, so lets walk through it, yeah?

I think the part you missed is that less effective does not mean ineffective.
And its worth repeating, so say it again with me: less effective is not the same as ineffective.

What this means in practical, usable terms is close in batteries are dual purpose weapons, good at small craft shoot-downs and heavy enough to do damage not get nosold by capital size defenses.
I think it would be helpful if you tried mentally relabeling 'Close in batteries' to one of 'Heavy Point Defense'(being literally twice the gun by space as pd turrets) or 'extra light naval guns(light naval being a term already used, and half the size as the 4 space emplacements).
... Have you forgotten what you said in the post I was responding to? You know, the stuff that was quoted in the post you responded to?
Here it is, a neat reminder for you:
The imbalance of Close in > pd reveals its purpose: PD is great for shooting down missiles and torpedos. Ciwb CAN do that, but it can also hit out further and threaten slightly bigger targets, like the strikecraft launching said ordnance. Or, another way put, its the advance guard for the PD zone, but it also threatens fighters, bombers and assault shuttles from making attack runs or during them, or stopping your own fighters from landing if they get chased back to base.
I was not saying Close-In Weapons Batteries cannot counter strikecraft.
I was rebutting your ludicrous suggestion that Point Defence Batteries cannot, and that to do so you should get CIWB instead. That is PDs entire role, and it significantly outclasses CIWBs at it.
Unless you were simply extremely confused about the terminology, and said "missiles and torpedos", "strikecraft launching said ordnance" and "fighters, bombers and assault shuttles" when you meant to say "torpedos and strikecraft", "Voidships launching said strikecraft" and "frigates, destroyers and corvettes" instead?
TL;DR: it may or may not support what you tried to say, but it sure doesn't support what you did say.

(being literally twice the gun by space as pd turrets)
... CIWB take up 2 System Slots for PD's 1, and have far, far less guns than the latter, hence why the Exotic PDs are so much more expensive than the Exotic CIWBs.
They're bigger guns, so they'll do (some) damage to actual Voidships, but consider that the conversation was started by a ship design that swapped Weapon Batteries and a Heavy Weapon Battery to get System Slots, and then spent 2 System Slots for a Close In Weapons Battery. For comparison, that's 2 Weapon Batteries worth, or the entire Heavy Weapon Battery tradein. As I said before,
To be blunt, the contrived set of circumstances where this transport ship can be cut off from its escorts, prevented from escape, and approached at knife fight range by a hostile starship, but is able to successfully defend itself with a single Close In Weapons Battery... are not worth entertaining. If this ever comes to pass and we lose a ship for it, it will be more than made up for by all the ships saved by using those slots effectively.
Just spend the slots on relevant defences, and leave the shooting at starships to the escorts. Or if you must leave it with anti-starship weapons, don't trade out the weapons batteries.
Hell, if you absolutely must put an upscaled gun on it, instead of trading two Weapon Batteries for a single Close-In Weapons Battery, you could keep one and trade the other in for a Point Defense Battery, meaning instead of one battery that is kind of ok at both roles, you have an entire specialised battery for each.
It's just a terrible idea.

Thought for the day: I'll take a -1 to hit with 2 rerolls over a +0 to hit and 1 ANY time, especially if I get more rolls due to longer engagement range, and double especially when/where enemy volume of fire is considered/concerned.
This isn't Tabletop. I suggest you take a good look at what the two components actually represent, and when the QM tells you "[X] is less effective against [Z] than [Y]" you don't go "well, obviously what they meant was that [X] has a very slightly higher bonus to hit than [Y] but [Y] has twice the range so it's actually almost twice as effective" while ignoring stuff like tracking, number of guns, or the fact that space is big and strikecraft can dodge.
Especially when you then go on assume twice as many shots from Y, while ignoring that you can get twice as many X for the same slot cost.

The thing is, 1 good hit from a vehicle grade weapon will probably kill a fighter (especially in the case of fatecaster weapons). So it makes sense that in terms of defending against fighters, its better to have 5 times as many guns instead of longer range (or 10 times as many guns if you use the same amount of CIWS space for PD)
Depends on if it's a light fighter or a heavy fighter. Light, sure; heavy might take a few good hits.
Of course, as you point out, space-equivalent PD has an order of magnitude more guns, so even if it took three hits or so PD's still ahead of the game.
Given the size of Warhammer fighters, it's probably more "several good hits" or "1 lucky hit."
That said, it's not just "more guns=more hits" that makes it better for the role. PD has better tracking against small, fast moving targets like strikecraft*, likely has far better rate of fire given the vehicle/superheavy difference, and given the difference in number of guns probably has better coverage, which is pretty critical given the sizes of 40 30 20-somethingK ships.
The added exotic cost on them is nasty though, yeah.

*
TLDR version, Point Defense is Bofors/Phalanx/machine guns/Chicago Pianos; light caliber weapons with high speed tracking. CIW is 5" or 8" dual purpose gun type things---less effective against small fast moving stuff in exchange for, you know, actually being a threat to another ship.
(The comparison isn't exact, of course, as there's a bit more nuance vis a vis different weapons types, factional design preferences, and the differing realities of Void combat compared to surface naval battles, but as a somewhat accurate metaphor it's, well, accurate enough.)
 
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... Have you forgotten what you said in the post I was responding to? You know, the stuff that was quoted in the post you responded to?
Here it is, a neat reminder for you:

I was not saying Close-In Weapons Batteries cannot counter strikecraft.
I was rebutting your ludicrous suggestion that Point Defence Batteries cannot, and that to do so you should get CIWB instead. That is PDs entire role, and it significantly outclasses CIWBs at it.
Unless you were simply extremely confused about the terminology, and said "missiles and torpedos", "strikecraft launching said ordnance" and "fighters, bombers and assault shuttles" when you meant to say "torpedos and strikecraft", "Voidships launching said strikecraft" and "frigates, destroyers and corvettes" instead?
TL;DR: it may or may not support what you tried to say, but it sure doesn't support what you did say.
I think the problem is terminology being inherently confusing. By definition, CIWB are point defense batteries, because point defense is what close-in weapons systems do. The idea that CIWB are somehow more powerful than PDB when close-in weapons are the lowest-level of point defense in modern terminology is...perplexing.
 
992.M29 | Turn 5 | The Pearl Without Price: [The Five of Blades], Reversed


The Pearl Without Price​


sǝpɐlᙠ ɟo ǝʌıℲ ǝɥ⊥​


992.M29
The Webway
Approximately coterminous with deep space north-northwest of Kar Duniash​


On the host marches, now through a tunnel the like of which they have never seen. It is not the smooth, organic flow of Wraithbone, yet neither is it the regimented mathematical not-stone of the Old Ones. No, this passage winds and twists irregularly, bulges and kinks, rough walls of dull grey-black almost-sandstone showing oddly regular striations. At last, however, it connects to more familiar passages, if clearly disused for some time, and here too are signs of that which the host seeks—for swiftly the host finds the ruin of a modest web-realm, scarred and blackened by plasma and flamer, and with the remnants great pyres in the ruined courtyards. Every inch of the realm seems scoured by flames—large portions, it is clear, were simply melted with enormous Melta charges—torpedos, most likely. Whatever happened here, it seemed someone decided it needed to be purged with fire, thoroughly. And no more than perhaps six weeks prior. The Host is closing the distance between themselves and their quarry…



They hear it before they see it, and the Host comes to battle readiness—from ahead echos the din of battle, the throaty Throp-BOOM of plasma guns, the snarling KRAKKAKRAKKAKRAKKA of Hellguns on full-auto, and a roaring rush of air that is likely a massive flame-weapon of some sort.

Marching order is abandoned.​

Engines howl as the war-hosts of the Aeldari come to full combat speed, rushing through passages and the fire seems to intensify from ahead—It seems whoever is engaged can hear the roaring howl of hundreds of jet-turbines as the Host grows nearer.
At last the front-lines of the Host screams around the final corner. And here they find not who they were seeking, but answers nonetheless: on one side, brilliant, vibrant colors flash and dance as fans of scintillating lasfire, searing stars of plasma and hissing hails of razor-discs cut into the other. Jetbikes dance in the air, trails of grenades lain behind them, and two large skimmers that seem to mostly be enormous flamers send roaring cones of fire playing across the front, thinning the horde—and a horde it is. Like ants, they pour from a side-passage, pale as death, ragged clothing dripping something oily and black. The creatures might have been Aeldari, once, yet there is no light within them, no soul of shining crystal, only a void, and as the host closes the details of the swarming horde are made apparent—rictus smiles drip oily blackness, empty sockets filled with something that flows and writhes as black-oil tears run down faces. The things swarm like animals, and where lasfire or shuriken cuts them down, they go in sprays of the same oil-black. Closer, and it becomes apparent that the black-stuff itself is an enemy—it pools and flows unnaturally, tendrils seeking to writhe around fire and fury to reach the line of Harlequins before them. Closer, now, and the scent of rot wafts from the side-tunnel.

But as horrifying as these things are…

…it isn't that much worse than the mobs of the Croneworlds.​

Formations shift with barely a curt command, and flame-weapons are brought to the van even as the Host closes the last few meters. Over Vox the troupe-master comes, and wanings welcome he brings:
" 'ware, good cousins come,"
"Shadow's touch death brings at once,"​
"Fire's flame must burn all!"​

If the Troupe brought a din, the Host brings a roar, as dozens, then hundreds of weapons open fire, and at once the horde, before creeping gradually forward, is thrown back to the tunnel-mouth. Zahr-Tann takes here the lead, shrieking plascasters searing the tunnel black. There are a great many bodies and dripping oil-blackness in the side-passage, but star-bright plasma is more than sufficient to scour it clean. If such a mob had caught them by surprise, it might have been able to inflict some damage, if they had been unwarned of the oil-darkness it might have taken a toll…
…but neither can the foe claim.​

The Host pushes down the side-tunnel, scouring every room and passage. Whatever this thing is, they will not leave it at their flank, and at last they push through into a small cavern-chamber. Once it might have hosted some retreat or other, but now orchards list, rotting branches dripping oilslick black into the pools of it that slowly flow over what might have been the grounds. Even the Wraithbone of the structure itself, some grand palatial thing, is not spared, sagging like rotted wood as thick mats of the stuff quiver in the air where they hang from it.

Whatever it is, however, one thing is clear:

It burns quite nicely.​

Oh, it tries to resist, massing great mounds and rivers, and shambling, almost-men the size of tanks that throw globs of the oil-slick that comprises them, spinning out into great nets that attempt to cover the line.

The Host burns such right out of the air, and flames take the throwers not long after.​

All in all, it takes the Host a mere three weeks to fully burn down this side-realm to the ground, and with not an injury among them.



The Harlequins, it is learned, are on the same trail as the Host, seeking lost Nacretini, before they were waylain by the swarming shadow-things. Five of their own were lost attempting the melee, and joined the horde within bare seconds of contact with the stuff. The lost Craftworld, it seems, has fought them as well—the troupe confirmed that when they passed the battle-site it had not yet fully cooled, still warm from the fires that had ravaged it.

What have you stumbled across?​


Stand By…

 
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Welp, at least we're pushing lots of palsma proliferation on our main line troops down the line.

There more coming soon Mechanis? You finally get out of Make Sense of Rolls Hell? This shit is seriously scary, even if we made it look weak because we had Zahr-Tann and there "Yes, everything is fire" arsenal.
 
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Well, if Kill It With Fire is required, it's a good thing we brought a lot of heat.

So anyone more familiar with the lore, is this a C'tan shard or something else entirely?
 
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