- Location
- Germany
Yeah, it does.
Also means that squad sizes becomes far less important because if it comes down to it, you can just slap two attached transports onto that squad.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
Yeah, it does.
Also means that squad sizes becomes far less important because if it comes down to it, you can just slap two attached transports onto that squad.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Transports are expensive though. A Mirage cost 184 EP, while a line infantry squad for us will probably be between 160-200 EP. Having to double up on transports would be even more expensive.
- Location
- Germany
Some extra pay yes, but it does allow larger squads that might be rarely used.
Say a size 15 squad mainly build around holding ground.
It's something that opens up quite a bit of flexibility.
There is also some fuckery you can do by using the transports to add extra guns as support for the troop if you want for some reason.
Its kind of important to know that we have that as an option even if we never use it.
12 troopers with light rending blades, sunblaster calivers, and VGW is already 204 points. Extra equipment - conversion fields, say - raise that by potentially a fair bit.
Since a properly built militarized Speeder transport for six should be a chunk cheaper than the Mirage (and also much better protection for its passengers), I don't think we'd end up paying that much for the transports.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
We should just build a foundry. The EP cost only determines how many items a foundry spits out per turn. Nothing more. So in that instance the EP cost stops being a problem, and with our warshrine Squads get equipped as gear becomes available. So we can assign transports to a squad and eventually the squad will conform to their assignments.
The two big differences I see are:
1) the way vehicle weapons scale may have some advantages in terms of concentrated firepower. A heavy power armoured squad can't carry a vehicle weapon but a tank can carry heavy weapons.
2) Depending on how casualty averse our Peaceful population is we may be more bound by slots/person that EP/slot.
They're also good for different kinds of jobs.
The issue then is paying twice for the vehicle defences when going up against hard targets.
A nasty vehicle weapon that might kill a light vehicle and over penetrate to the degree that it also kills passengers in medium semi-powered armour might be survivable for people inside a well designed medium specialist transport, that has heavy or even super-heavy armour for the passenger compartment.
- Location
- Germany
The interesting thing is that full on militated vehicles might be doable.
There is also thinking about how most factions in 40k would feel about having to deal with a warhost made up of that.
About the only ones that would be happy facing that would be the orks potentially.
But I have a feeling even they would hate it because we wouldn't stay still to actually fight.
Its also something that fits really well with the eldar fighting style where they are pretty much THE mobile force and making use of that to great effect.
There is also thinking about how most factions in 40k would feel about having to deal with a warhost made up of that.
About the only ones that would be happy facing that would be the orks potentially.
But I have a feeling even they would hate it because we wouldn't stay still to actually fight.
Its also something that fits really well with the eldar fighting style where they are pretty much THE mobile force and making use of that to great effect.
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It comes down to the same thing though. What matters is the BAP cost of establishing a certain volume of production, whether that's determined by EP or something else.
Even if we go for a substantially armoured design for some war hosts, I think even those ones will also want some assault detachments, and we'll also probably want some war hosts based around mechanised infantry when we do want to take and hold ground.
An armoured fist backed by armoured artillery to break through defensive lines and then heavy assault infantry to exploit the breach and take strong points and
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- Location
- Seattle, Washington
IMO we should focus on tanks supported by power armored infantry in light transports. Spend metal, not meat
Edit: Actually, probably swap that around. Mechanized power armor infantry supported by integrated tanks.
Edit: Actually, probably swap that around. Mechanized power armor infantry supported by integrated tanks.
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The heavy defenses aren't that much of the cost of a transport, at least one with a Capacitractor, which would be the go-to reactor for a transport we're doubling up on per Troop. I suspect smaller chassis pay less EP for their armor and engines, too. The second grav shield would be the big issue, if we went for four defense systems. Combine with the lower base chassis cost, and I think it's a plausible option - possibly slightly less defenses in return for being possibly significantly faster and a second heavy mount.
It would be somewhat more expensive, though. Mark it down as a "we'll come back to this" after we see the results of our current round of designs, I suppose.
I'm going to say, though, that if we decide we like flexible designs over specialist ones - 6/12 size squads are very convenient, because they take up the exact same amount of internal space as 1/2 vehicle weapons.
- Location
- Germany
Doing some math in my head I think we got the chassis for most of our tanks + fast attack vehicle version + AA with the medium chassis we just started developing.
Light chassis doesn't really cut costs and has some problems with slots when we start to layer defenses.
And I am not sure if it would still be worth it when we start to strip defenses.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Here is what im thinking for a "standard" detachment
heavy line detachment:
Command
- Command squad in attached APC
Elite
- 1-2 Elite 6 man Ithilmar equipped Squads in IFVs
Troops:
- 3 plasma rifle Void Guard infantry squads in attached APCs
- 2 Needler Carbine/melee squads in attached APCs
Fast Attack
- 1-2 Jetbike Mk2 squads
Heavy Support
- 1-2x IFV for Elite transport
- 1x squad of 3 tanks
- 1x Artillery
This would probably be like 8000 EP, but it would also be very powerful in combat
heavy line detachment:
Command
- Command squad in attached APC
Elite
- 1-2 Elite 6 man Ithilmar equipped Squads in IFVs
Troops:
- 3 plasma rifle Void Guard infantry squads in attached APCs
- 2 Needler Carbine/melee squads in attached APCs
Fast Attack
- 1-2 Jetbike Mk2 squads
Heavy Support
- 1-2x IFV for Elite transport
- 1x squad of 3 tanks
- 1x Artillery
This would probably be like 8000 EP, but it would also be very powerful in combat
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
We will want to also consider detachments intended for void combat, not just ones that are in IFVs or APCs.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
Just drop the attached transports and vehicles.
I disagree. I think we should focus our production on Armoured and Artillery Detachments both largely based on the Fata Morgana chassis mutually supporting smaller numbers of shock infantry detachments of Ithilmar wearing infantry in a new design of more heavily armoured Assault Transport Chassis, that can support both IFV and APC designs.
We'd also have different war hosts of mainly motorised infantry wearing VGW supported by truck based artillery.
However, they'd be used for different missions.
I don't think the concept of a standard detachment makes sense. We have a range of missions that different war hosts comprised of different detachments should be sent to do.
Making Jack of All Trades detachments just means that they won't be good at anything; as they're as good as their weakest link at anything. As slow as their slowest unit, as capable of sustaining a level of incoming fire as their least protected unit, etc
Instead, we should have more specialist detachments that can be combined to produce war hosts capable of achieving their missions.
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- Location
- Seattle, Washington
That's fair. We could split between mechanized line detachments with infantry in apcs, 1-2 squads of Ithilmar elites, and some artillery; then have special detachments that are dedicated armor companies with like 12 tanks and some elites but no troops.
Infantry-portable explosives 1
Melta bomb looks a bit like the bag of mary poppins
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
A spoonful of sugar helps the explosions go down!
I like the way the triangular carrying handle is similar to the triangular pull rings on the grenades. It doesn't do the same thing (I assume), but it's a nice little signal to the hind-brain that "this also explodes."
I assume the triangles are also referencing certain Eldar runes?
*Throws spicy d20*
From Left to Right: Frag, Krack, Smoke, Screamer
Melta Bomb
Time to make your reflex save against shrapnel!
I wouldn't even go that far.
I'd have things like the Armoured detachment I suggested before, and given we can have squads of tanks, I'd be looking at something like thirty armoured vehicles in the detachment. Mostly tanks, but also organic anti-air vehicles and artillery on Fata Morgana hulls.
I'd then have an actual shock trooper detachment. For this I'd have all the infantry in Ithilmar, all in assault transport hulls save for elites who would be in six man IFV. Something like:
Heavy Gravity Shock Infantry Detachment
1 HQ: 6 man Infantry Command Squad in Ithilmar + Conversion Field in Assault Transport Command Vehicle
2 Elite: 2x 6 man Shock Infantry Elite in Ithilmar with Melee Gravity Blade, Graviton Sheer Rifle, and Energy Dispersion Field mounted in Assault Infantry IFV (extra Heavy Support slots)
3 Troop: 3x 12 man Shock Infantry Troop A in Ithilmar with Power Mauls, Heavy Sunblasters and Energy Dispersion Field in Assault Transport APCs
3 Fast Attack: 3x 12 man Shock Jetbikes with Graviton Sheer Rifle in VGW with Energy Dispersion Fields
2 Extra Troops: 2x 12 man Shock Infantry Troop B in Ithilmar with Melee Rending Blade, Heavy Point Singularity Projectors and Energy Dispersion Field
2 Extra Heavy Support: 2x Assault Transport IFV with six person transport capability and Vehicle Grade Graviton Sheer Cannon
1 Extra HQ: Assault Transport Command Vehicle with six person support capability and vehicle grade Point Singularity Projector
The idea of this detachment is that when you need someone to kick the door down, you need to kick the door down. You don't need a mixture of Ithilmar and VGW infantry in the same detachment, as when that detachment is in the middle of assaulting a defended fortification you want everyone attacking to be as defended as you can make them as they break in and then fight through defended corridors and rooms. It does have significant integral ranged heavy weapon support from the heavy Sunblasters and Point Singularity projectors of the troops, who can lay down absolute annihilation in front of them to soften up the target for the elites to be the tip of the spear with Gravity blades and Graviton Sheer Rifles to smash any that remain.
Similarly, you might have a Line Infantry detachment that looks like this:
Medium Plasma Line Infantry Detachment
HQ: 6 man Infantry Command Squad in Ithilmar + Conversion Field in Medium Generic Command Vehicle
2 Elite: 2x12 man Line Infantry Elite in VGW with Energy Dispersion Field with light Gravity Blade and Perfected Grav-Hybrid Rifle in Medium Generic Transport
3 Troop: 3x12 man Line Infantry Troop A in VGW with Energy Dispersion Field with light Rending Blade and Ranged Sunblaster in Medium Generic Transport
3 Fast Attack: 3x12 man Line Jetbike in VGW with Energy Dispersion Field. Three variants of jet bike squad, one with plasma cannon, one with heavy needler one with heavy flamer
2 Extra Troops: 2x 12 man squad in VGW with Energy Dispersion Field with light rendering blade and needler rifle in Medium Generic Transport
2 Extra Heavy Support: 2x 12 man squad in VGW* with Energy Dispersion Field and a mixture of heavy Sunblasters and missile launchers (*ideally we'd design a heavy powered armour with sensors and auto-targetters and more power assist but no conversion field for this unit) in Medium Generic Transport.
Extra HQ: Medium Generic Command Vehicle, six man capacity plus vehicle Suncannon.
Once again, the idea is that this is a detachment that is mutually supported by other detachments in its warhost and does what it does well. It's a very good mechanised line infantry detachment. It's not designed as shock infantry, but it's competent at melee and very good at fighting other infantry forces, while it's transports give it very good mobility.
Now, in a balanced war host, you might have three or four Medium Plasma Detachments along with a single Heavy Grav Detachment, plus an artillery detachment I've not sketched out here. You might even have one of the Armoured detachments I sketched out before for a combined arms army.
If you add all these up you might get to the same numbers of similar troops that this number of mixed detachments have, but each of these focused detachments should probably be better at their jobs, and so when operating as a combined war host add up to a much greater whole.
However, once designed, they cost the same to raise. I think it's a false economy not to invest in specialised detachments. We hopefully have the breathing space to do so.
Edit: and note that Chassis Militarisation allowed us to design four vehicles. Commission Forces might well be similar.
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"Eldar Witch, hey, Eldar Witch! Can you cast us a spell?"
"Ho Ho Ho Ho! Of course young Monkeigh tank crew! SUPERCALIBER FRAGALISTIC EXPLODIOCIOUS, I CAST MELTABOMB!"
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
I'm pretty sure your Medium Plasma Detachment would actually be a heavy detachment, since our existing medium detachments seem to be 3 squads of troops, 1 squad of elites, and 2 squads of jetbikes. (+transports)
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