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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Alectai said:
I think the point is "Refits are designed for minor tweaks, not mass overhauls. If you want to overhaul units, use Warrior AP to just create new Detachments fit to purpose"
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The problem is that that isn't simple either.

Because the warrior can't just make detachments, the steward has to design them.
And the steward can't just make detachments, he first has to design units.
 
Alectai said:
I think the point is "Refits are designed for minor tweaks, not mass overhauls. If you want to overhaul units, use Warrior AP to just create new Detachments fit to purpose"
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Which probably means spending a few turns designing new squads to fill out a new Detachment. Our previous Troop designs were a bit... Optimistic, and we have a bunch of new weapons to roll out to them besides.
 
(Shrug).

I'm just disappointed that actually unfucking our starting army is straight up more expensive actionwise than just throwing it out and starting fresh.
 
DarkLight140 said:
For a mere handful of Steward AP we've been able to overhaul the entire agricultural industry, managing the employment of at least millions into the production of food for billions in what's probably a large-scale demechanization of an industrial sector larger than anything that's ever happened on real-world Earth. This is a wondrous feat of logistical management worthy of awe.

But we can't reshuffle a couple thousand guys' equipment to use all the suits of armor that we've built in five years. It's impossible. Can't be done. Too hard.
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Don't forget we're also capable of inventing black hole guns, foiling a chaos scheme that would've seen the entire species stagnating into extinction, fighting off ork hordes that outnumber us 3-to-1 and saving and REPRODUCING possibly the only remaining examples of intact Dominion equipment, but god forbid we have to hand our fellow Vulks some pants and a gun.

We spent all of our brainpower on the cure research, didn't we?
 
Randino Treviani said:
Okay.

Code: 
-[][STEWARD] Refit Detachments
--[] General refit revision
---[] Battlecasting Circle Detachments: 77 Psykers equipped with Ithilmar Assault Armor
---[] Hearthguard Skirmish Detachments: All Armor replaced with Void Guard
---[] Hearthguard Light Support Detachment: All Armor replaced with Void Guard

@Mechanis , can I get an estimate on how much AP this uses?
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1/5 armor fits for the first, 2/5 for the second (as you're replacing two kinds of armor (and can't really practically replace voidsuits with power armor), 1/5 for the latter (same deal) so 4/5 fits from 1 AP.
or 4/45 armor swaps, for all 9 points invested.
Which is one reason I was going "are we sure this is actually what people meant?"
 
DarkLight140 said:
For a mere handful of Steward AP we've been able to overhaul the entire agricultural industry, managing the employment of at least millions into the production of food for billions in what's probably a large-scale demechanization of an industrial sector larger than anything that's ever happened on real-world Earth. This is a wondrous feat of logistical management worthy of awe.

But we can't reshuffle a couple thousand guys' equipment to use all the suits of armor that we've built in five years. It's impossible. Can't be done. Too hard.
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I'm trying really hard to ignore how limited our military size is. Given comparable levels of militarization to IRL Earth we should have ~45 million troops given our population, not 8,000. Sure, advanced tech might drive that down some even given we have a massively bigger incentive to militarize, but this is a bit much.
 
BigFungus26 said:
Don't forget we're also capable of inventing black hole guns, foiling a chaos scheme that would've seen the entire species stagnating into extinction, fighting off ork hordes that outnumber us 3-to-1 and saving and REPRODUCING possibly the only remaining examples of intact Dominion equipment, but god forbid we have to hand our fellow Vulks some pants and a gun.

We spent all of our brainpower on the cure research, didn't we?
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Imagine what Biel-Tan and the other major craftworlds are having to deal with.
 
Xavies said:
And just like that this Quest has turned into an RTS, where we Bunker up, till we have researched the Tech Tree, then build an actual Army and Roll over the Opposition.

Too Bad that we need an Army for the Upcoming Fetch Quests... i mean, we already have an Escort Mission. *grows visibly ill*
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Actually pretty close to that.

It also imposes some other stuff like 1 armor per squad, no mixing like we had it in our newly design troops from turn 1. Hard limit the amount of different weapons you have and for logistic's sake limit yourself to a few weapon types overall, and giving the captain of the squad a power sword or stuff like that is pretty much asking added even more AP cost to the refits. More or less standardize everything to hell and back.

Go max squad size on everything because logistics wise that is the most bang which is the real problem over everything else.


Alectai said:
I think the point is "Refits are designed for minor tweaks, not mass overhauls. If you want to overhaul units, use Warrior AP to just create new Detachments fit to purpose"
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Thing is, Warrior AP take even longer to do the same thing when you try to update new detachments.
The entire system as is just makes getting large scale armies that aren't terrible and/or a horror to bookkeep close to impossible.
 
I personally can't be bothered to check if disband-reraise is more efficient AP wise, but by gods it's going to be simpler.
dgr11897 said:
Which probably means spending a few turns designing new squads to fill out a new Detachment. Our previous Troop designs were a bit... Optimistic, and we have a bunch of new weapons to roll out to them besides.
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Unfortunately, true.

@Mechanis once we get to it, can we design Detachments and use them for Warhost plans in the same turn? And for squads in Detachments?
 
Alectai said:
(Shrug).

I'm just disappointed that actually unfucking our starting army is straight up more expensive actionwise than just throwing it out and starting fresh.
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TBH, I'm not sure it is.
In order to unfuck the army, we need to spend at least 4 AP designing new units ( 2 sets of unit design actions are not unlocked yet)
We then need to spend 12 AP over a minimum of 4 turns to redesign all our detachments to use the new units.
We then need to spend 1 AP per detachment an 1 AP per warhost (at least), to get them transfered over.
 
I cannot make number crunchy plan on the run but if anyone can figure it out, can you make something like:



1) all battlecasting: infantry and jetbikers in VGW, psykers in Ithilmar

2) all assault and heavy: infantry and jetbikers in VGW until we run out of VGW or AP

3) if AP still left, militia line detachments: militia infantry and jetbikers in brigandines

Inside a step prioritize warcasting circle to refit, then heavy militia warhosts in order, then militia warhosts in order.





Do not refit hardsuits to brigandines, it's medium to light armor downgrade for our folks.



Also, fluff wise it's kinda insane we can't make 3k people change their battle dress to something better in five years. They should be standing in line to finally get rid of wet paper towels they have for armor today, not waiting for the head honcho to teach them how to button the buttons for three days each personally.
 
vsh said:
I cannot make number crunchy plan on the run but if anyone can figure it out, can you make something like:



1) all battlecasting: infantry and jetbikers in VGW, psykers in Ithilmar

2) all assault and heavy: infantry and jetbikers in VGW until we run out of VGW or AP

3) if AP still left, militia line detachments: militia infantry and jetbikers in brigandines

Inside a step prioritize warcasting circle to refit, then heavy militia warhosts in order, then militia warhosts in order.





Do not refit hardsuits to brigandines, it's medium to light armor downgrade for our folks.



Also, fluff wise it's kinda insane we can't make 3k people change their battle dress to something better in five years. They should be standing in line to finally get rid of wet paper towels they have for armor today, not waiting for the head honcho to teach them how to button the buttons for three days each personally.
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Y'know? I'm pulling out paper and pencil and I'll try to just manually count how much does it cost us. Where's that bloody muster list...
 
Mechanis said:
1/5 armor fits for the first, 2/5 for the second (as you're replacing two kinds of armor (and can't really practically replace voidsuits with power armor), 1/5 for the latter (same deal) so 4/5 fits from 1 AP.
or 4/45 armor swaps, for all 9 points invested.
Which is one reason I was going "are we sure this is actually what people meant?"
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So to do all armour refits for the Grand Warcasting Circle and the 2nd to 4th heavy militia, we only needed 1 AP?

Can we just vote for what to do with the other 8 AP instead?
 
Mechanis said:
1/5 armor fits for the first, 2/5 for the second (as you're replacing two kinds of armor (and can't really practically replace voidsuits with power armor), 1/5 for the latter (same deal) so 4/5 fits from 1 AP.
or 4/45 armor swaps, for all 9 points invested.
Which is one reason I was going "are we sure this is actually what people meant?"
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A great deal of the confusion here is that swapping out these suits of armor costs twice as much AP as turning decorative water features into large scale aquaponics.
 
[X] Plan: Spread the refits as wide as possible
-[X] 7x Battlecasting Circle Detachments: 4 in Grand Warcasting Circle, 1 each in 2nd-4th Heavy Militia Warhosts
--[X] 7x11 Hardsuits for Ithilmar, for 77 suits total (1.4 points)

--[X] 7x30 Hardsuits for VGA, for 210 suits total (1.4 points)
-[X] 3x Hearthguard Line Detachments: 1 each in 2nd-4th Heavy Militia Warhosts
--[X] 3x44 Hardsuits for VGA, for 132 suits total (0.6 points)
-[X] 2x Hearthguard Skirmish Detachments: Both in GWC
--[X] 2x36 Hardsuits for VGA, for 72 suits total (0.4 points)
-[X] 3x Hearthguard Light Support Detachments: 1 each in 1st/4th/5th Militia Warhosts
--[X] 3x32 Hardsuits for VGA, for 96 suits total (0.6 points)

-[X] 5x Militia Line Detachments: 2 in GWC, 1 each in 2nd-4th Heavy Militia Warhosts
--[X] 5x58 Trauma Plates for Brigantine, for 290 suits (1.0 points)
-[X] 6x Militia Light Support Detachment: 2 each in 2nd-4th Heavy Militia Warhosts
--[X] 6x28 Trauma Plates for Brigantine, for 168 suits total (1.2 points)
-[X] 6x Militia Heavy Detachment: 1 each in 2nd-4th Heavy Militia Warhosts and 1st/4th/5th Militia Warhosts
--[X] 6x64 Trauma Plates for Brigantine, for 384 suits total (1.2 points)
-[X] 6x Militia Assault Detachments: 1 each in 2nd-4th Heavy Militia Warhosts and 1st/4th/5th Militia Warhosts
--[X] 6x58 Trauma Plates for Brigantine, for 348 suits (1.2 points)
--[X] Assign 3 Starblaster pistols and 12 Flamer pistols to each Militia Assault detachment

This is my draft plan, I'll do the math to make sure I'm not using too many suits in a second. Basically prioritises spreading the armour as widely as possible throughout our non-deployed Warhosts.

EDIT: This plan uses 77 Ithilmar suits, 510 VGA suits and 1,190 Brigantine suits.
This gets the all of the Battlecasters into Ithilmar.
If I've done it right it should have upgraded at least the majority of the armour in every detachment in our GWC and undeployed Heavy Militia Warhosts, and both the command and the Hearthguard detachment of the three undeployed Militia Warhosts.

EDIT2: Split the pistols between the 6 Militia Assault detachments, as they seem to be the main ones that use pistols that don't already have better ones.
  • 1858 Wraithweave Brigandine Armor Suits
  • 728 Void Guard Warsuits
  • 77 Ithilmar Assault Suits
  • 72 Flamer Pistols
  • 18 Starblaster Pistols
 
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Mechanis said:
1/5 armor fits for the first, 2/5 for the second (as you're replacing two kinds of armor (and can't really practically replace voidsuits with power armor), 1/5 for the latter (same deal) so 4/5 fits from 1 AP.
or 4/45 armor swaps, for all 9 points invested.
Which is one reason I was going "are we sure this is actually what people meant?"
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I think there was a fundamental miscommunication or understanding of the refit mechanics in the first place, which would have effected what we voted for in the main turn 3 vote, and that you should just tell us how much AP we needed for the original plan, and then do a follow up vote or simultaneous vote on what to do with the leftover AP.
 
Another thing we can consider is we dont need to do a refit all at once, we can just throw one AP at it for a given period of time, given we are unlikely to replace weapons or armor all that often.
 
Anyway, we should set up some production infrastructure soonish. Even if it's only 1 set of things, I want to see what it does.
 
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