If you think Fatescopes aren't the limiting factor for outfitting our interceptor fighters why would we need to swap out the Fatesheer PD? Especially since it and the hangar bays combined would make our battleship very heavily defended against enemy strikecraft.
It's basic math, a single ship's Fatesever PD grid costs a lot of hangars worth of Fatesever armed strikecraft even with the max investment of Psy-Scopes per strikecraft.

If you looked at my previous post I pointed out that a significant chunk of our total strikecraft force across all our Combat Brig's (either more than half or ~1/3 depending on how many each get armed with) could be refit with Fatesevers just from a single Combat Brig's PD grid.

One of those is way more affordable than the other.

Instead of a handful of ships armed with Fatesever PD grid which can only cover a part of a fleet you'd have multiple hangars of strikecraft that can either be spread around an entire fleet to give everyone coverage or concentrated if there is a huge attack on one specific target.

Simply put outright better strikecraft have way more flexibility than only a handful of ships with really good PD and should offer superior overall protection.
 
Instead of a handful of ships armed with Fatesever PD grid which can only cover a part of a fleet you'd have multiple hangars of strikecraft that can either be spread around an entire fleet to give everyone coverage or concentrated if there is a huge attack on one specific target.

Simply put outright better strikecraft have way more flexibility than only a handful of ships with really good PD and should offer superior overall protection.

Considering that said the handful of ships are currently our battleships ?
Yeah, very much worth it.

These are the ships that will get everything thrown at them and in large numbers and that includes strikecraft and torpedoes in addition to normal fire.
 
It's basic math, a single ship's Fatesever PD grid costs a lot of hangars worth of Fatesever armed strikecraft even with the max investment of Psy-Scopes per strikecraft.

If you looked at my previous post I pointed out that a significant chunk of our total strikecraft force across all our Combat Brig's (either more than half or ~1/3 depending on how many each get armed with) could be refit with Fatesevers just from a single Combat Brig's PD grid.

One of those is way more affordable than the other.

Instead of a handful of ships armed with Fatesever PD grid which can only cover a part of a fleet you'd have multiple hangars of strikecraft that can either be spread around an entire fleet to give everyone coverage or concentrated if there is a huge attack on one specific target.

Simply put outright better strikecraft have way more flexibility than only a handful of ships with really good PD and should offer superior overall protection.

I think there's a big 'it depends' here. The reference I found to the average Imperial carrier have a capacity of two or three thousand fighters worries me (and the average Imperial carrier is probably a cruiser, something like a custom built version of the Dictator class).

Given how spaceship carrying capacity scales with volume, and how big Imperial space craft are, that number sounds completely plausible to me.

If those numbers are accurate here and representative of what the likes of orks field* then the quantity of fighters you're talking about is just much too few to provide cover. They simply can't kill them fast enough before they'd shred our Aethersails.

I expect Pre-Fall our fighters were actually
The command vessels for squadrons of psychauromata fighters that we had to destroy in their launch bays, as given the geometry in space a single Eldar may have been able to command many more of them than an Eldar could manage of the ground.

* and I don't think ork fighters are meant to be that much stronger individually than imperial ones.
 
Just to point out how stupidly potent Fatesever cannon PDF is.

On the Brig there are 180 of them.
Their field of fire is a sphere with likely a quite good range in space because atmo is not slowing down the shots.

Assume that they shoot 1 spike per second and in between shots can switch targets.
That 1 spike always hits if they don't have shields and always hits a weakpoint that does critical damage (don't think I have to mention how that does bad things for strikecraft).

You now have 180 guns that each likely take out 1 strikecraft each, per second.
It takes them a bit less than 6 second to turn 1000 strikecraft into scrap.

Even if we double the number of needed hits that is still only around 11 second to take out 1000 strikecraft.
 
Considering that said the handful of ships are currently our battleships ?
Yeah, very much worth it.

These are the ships that will get everything thrown at them and in large numbers and that includes strikecraft and torpedoes in addition to normal fire.
Not really, ordinance and strikecraft are slow enough that you can see them coming and react ahead of time with things like positioning other ships and your own strikecraft in their way to intercept them.

Battleships are going to be the core and most expensive part of our fleets, especially since we have Webway gates onboard and as such they're going to be the very last things in our fleet that will be able to shoot at any incoming strikecraft or ordinance.

It is far more worth it to have the Fatesevers brought to bear as soon as you can given their space-time warping aimbot BS rather than making it your very last line of defense as that gives them more time to work their magic.

Edit:
Just to point out how stupidly potent Fatesever cannon PDF is.

On the Brig there are 180 of them.
Their field of fire is a sphere with likely a quite good range in space because atmo is not slowing down the shots.

Assume that they shoot 1 spike per second and in between shots can switch targets.
That 1 spike always hits if they don't have shields and always hits a weakpoint that does critical damage (don't think I have to mention how that does bad things for strikecraft).

You now have 180 guns that each likely take out 1 strikecraft each, per second.
It takes them a bit less than 6 second to turn 1000 strikecraft into scrap.

Even if we double the number of needed hits that is still only around 11 second to take out 1000 strikecraft.
The Fatesever space-time warping BS applies to the fighters too.

Fatesever armed fighters would only need to fly close enough to their targets for them to be within their firing sphere and then hold down the trigger until no more targets remain.
 
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Just to point out how stupidly potent Fatesever cannon PDF is.

On the Brig there are 180 of them.
Their field of fire is a sphere with likely a quite good range in space because atmo is not slowing down the shots.

Assume that they shoot 1 spike per second and in between shots can switch targets.
That 1 spike always hits if they don't have shields and always hits a weakpoint that does critical damage (don't think I have to mention how that does bad things for strikecraft).

You now have 180 guns that each likely take out 1 strikecraft each, per second.
It takes them a bit less than 6 second to turn 1000 strikecraft into scrap.

Even if we double the number of needed hits that is still only around 11 second to take out 1000 strikecraft.

That assumes enemy strike craft have critical weak points that are exposed rather than energy bubble shields that protect relatively equally against attacks from any angle. Ork power shields are such things. Our own grav shields don't care about the angle they're attacked from and I don't think Conversion fields do either.

Always making a critical strike requires critical vulnerabilities to exist.

That exists for most armour*. It doesn't for many shields.

* for example, in the most obvious case, a solid spherical ball is no more vulnerable to a fatesever canon than it is to any other attack that can hit it.
 
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The Fatesever space-time warping BS applies to the fighters too.

Fatesever armed fighters would only need to fly close enough to their targets for them to be within their firing sphere and then hold down the trigger until no more targets remain.

They give less PDF on a per slot base in addition to having to be replaced over time because vehicle scale gravshields* don't hold up when the other sides ship PDF start to fire.

*what it is, is defense against other strikecraft
 
[] The More the Merrier - Reconciliation BTG
- [] His Sons
- [] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
- [] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
- [] Seer Araeniel of Meros
- [] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
- [] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
- [] Special Bodyguards
- [] Elite Bodyguards
- - [] Reduce this
- [] Weight: Escort Heavy
- [] Configuration: Battleship Task Group
- [] Special: The Serpent of the Stars

Shit. Complete miss read PM as AM. Dunce move.
They give less PDF on a per slot base in addition to having to be replaced over time because vehicle scale gravshields* don't hold up when the other sides ship PDF start to fire.

*what it is, is defense against other strikecraft
Fatesever would be for an interceptor class meant to defend our capitol ships from bombers and enemy torpedo boats. It doesn't need to worry about enemy PDF as much because their not in a forward combat role. It's an Anti-fighter with fast attack potential rather than a general purpose fighter or bomber.
 
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It's basic math, a single ship's Fatesever PD grid costs a lot of hangars worth of Fatesever armed strikecraft even with the max investment of Psy-Scopes per strikecraft.

If you looked at my previous post I pointed out that a significant chunk of our total strikecraft force across all our Combat Brig's (either more than half or ~1/3 depending on how many each get armed with) could be refit with Fatesevers just from a single Combat Brig's PD grid.

One of those is way more affordable than the other.

Instead of a handful of ships armed with Fatesever PD grid which can only cover a part of a fleet you'd have multiple hangars of strikecraft that can either be spread around an entire fleet to give everyone coverage or concentrated if there is a huge attack on one specific target.

Simply put outright better strikecraft have way more flexibility than only a handful of ships with really good PD and should offer superior overall protection.
I'm not seeing a good reason why we can't do both? I can see the argument that we don't want to have to arm all of our future battleships with Fatesever PDBs, which is fine because we're likely to design a Galleon at some point in the future which we'll need to build from scratch.

But our current Brig's already use them, so refitting them won't cost anything, and as long as we're not putting them on things willy nilly I'd say we're fine for Fatescopes for now? We produce enough Fatescopes a turn for 60 fighters to get one each, our current stockpile is ~1800 and rising, and in a pinch a Forge action give us 300 more.
 
I think the question of what to do about our fighter craft and PD is strongly affected by whether and when we think we're going to get a new Conversion Field variant, as the right Conversion field should also be very good at protecting our ships against a large volume of relatively weak attacks from strikecraft in a way our Grav Shields can't. If we think it's relatively soon the mission profile and need for both our strike craft and our point defence changes. If we have conversion fields, our point defence might want to be much more focused on torpedoes, for example, not that I'm sure how much difference that makes without more thought.

Talking of which, I wonder if there's a point at which some kinds of grav-weapon point defences and starship grav shields essentially merge into the same thing. Both are active systems that use gravity to intercept individual enemy shots.
 
Talking of which, I wonder if there's a point at which some kinds of grav-weapon point defences and starship grav shields essentially merge into the same thing. Both are active systems that use gravity to intercept individual enemy shots.
Sounds like a decently plausible development from further grav-field research. Probably one that competes with making it more compact.
 
As I'm still starting to read through the quest, a question: are we going to reveal the curses and their natures/vulnerabilities to this summit? If not, why not?

And if we do, will it serve to provide at least a temporary alliance or at least collaboration on this issue with the other Aeldari factions? Considering how this will screw all of us over if given time to fester, and all of our goals (different as they may be) will inevitably fail if we don't fix this?
 
As I'm still starting to read through the quest, a question: are we going to reveal the curses and their natures/vulnerabilities to this summit? If not, why not?

And if we do, will it serve to provide at least a temporary alliance or at least collaboration on this issue with the other Aeldari factions? Considering how this will screw all of us over if given time to fester, and all of our goals (different as they may be) will inevitably fail if we don't fix this?
The whole point of the summit is to reveal the curse to everyone at the same time, before the curses get ingrained.
 
I'm hoping that we can develop grav based drives and jump packs at some point.

Well, the Swooping Hawks' Wings use anti-grav to fly (and grav thruster-propelled grenades), so they're presumably possible.

Aspect Warriors are, thinking about it, one of the major examples of Eldar tech-sharing. As the post-Asur diaspora of Phoenix Lords and their disciples founded the Aspect Shrines on the Craftworlds, they took the knowledge of how to make their wargear with them.

Hopefully Aspect Warrior gear is not a lesser variant of God-Tech, powered by the user's adoption of an aspect of the shattered Khaine and receiving a blessing from Him in turn. That would be a bit limiting, although possibly stil something we could make use of.

I wonder what we think of the Paths IC. Do we reject them pragmatically, thinking of them as an unnecessary sacrifice, or are we in some ways ethically or morally opposed, thinking that level of mental self-mutilation is 'wrong' in a similar if probably lesser way to how the Conservatives oppose Soul Forging.

If we just think it's unnecessary but not objectionable then we might be fine with allowing any of our population who wants to adopt the Paths, including allowing the Phoenix Lords to evangelise. If any of our people want to spend some time as ascetic monks denying themselves the great majority of the richness of Eldar life, perhaps we're happy for them to get on with it if that's what they want, even if others in our community don't want to.

Depending on how long Soul Forging takes, and how draining the Thirst gets in the interim, I could even see us potentially partially adopting the Paths as a stop gap method to slow our degeneration, not spending long enough on each Path to risk getting lost or spending all our time on one, and just having people spend a few years on a Path to give their soul time to recover before stepping off them for a couple of decades.

It could even become part of a healthy balanced lifestyle. After a few decades living life to the full you could choose to focus on exploring a particular aspect of yourself by spending a few years on the Path of the Artisan, or the Poet, or even the Warrior, before readopting your full personality. It could be a good way of focusing on learning a new skill, or improving an existing one, like going on intensive training course that dominates your time and attention for a while.

It might be nice to try to break down the forming lines between factions, to make the forming Eldar culture more of a continuum rather than hard divisions.
 
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They give less PDF on a per slot base in addition to having to be replaced over time because vehicle scale gravshields* don't hold up when the other sides ship PDF start to fire.

*what it is, is defense against other strikecraft
They also cost way less per slot and can be distributed more widely and just offers more coverage in general.

Like we probably wouldn't want to spend 120 Psy-Scopes (60 guns per escort PD grid) just to get a Fatesever PD grid on a Ketch but spending 36-72 per capital scale hangar (3 squadrons) for a light cruiser whose strikecraft can can go support that Ketch or some other ship would be way more acceptable and gives all our ships the ability to get Fatesever coverage.

Meanwhile a Fatesever PD grid on a Combat Brig wouldn't be able to help that Ketch unless the Ketch either runs to the Brig or the Brig runs to the Ketch, both of which are surrendering your ships tactical independence.

The lower raw fire-rate matters a lot less too when the time where they'll be actively shooting will be much higher than a shipboard PD grid.

Given our intention is to design an interceptor armed with one or two of them we might not even give them anti-ship weapon so the likelihood of actually exposing them to ship grade PD fire isn't very high.

Barring us developing some truly nasty strikecraft ordinance our main striking arm will be our shipboard weapon batteries with strikecraft relegated to the nonetheless critical of handling enemy strikecraft and ordinance.

I'm not seeing a good reason why we can't do both? I can see the argument that we don't want to have to arm all of our future battleships with Fatesever PDBs, which is fine because we're likely to design a Galleon at some point in the future which we'll need to build from scratch.

But our current Brig's already use them, so refitting them won't cost anything, and as long as we're not putting them on things willy nilly I'd say we're fine for Fatescopes for now? We produce enough Fatescopes a turn for 60 fighters to get one each, our current stockpile is ~1800 and rising, and in a pinch a Forge action give us 300 more.
Fatetwister Cannons are a much better use of Psy-Scope weapons for our ships.

PD is already supposed to provide all-round coverage and while Fatesever PD would increase the volume of fire and lethality I think I've already made a pretty good case for why strikecraft can utilize them better.

Fatetwisters meanwhile aren't just incredibly lethal anti-ship weapons since they never miss and have a very high chance of dealing critical damage but basically remove any need for CIWB (system slot heavy) on a ship since they would be able to cover the entire ship unlike our other naval weapons.

Not needing CIWB means we have more System slots to work with and as such can increase the amount of PD grids we can fit onto a ship.

Also, as we saw with our raid on that Freeboota base this turn infantry scale Fatecaster weapons are really good in ground combat so we are likely to want to spend our Psy-Scopes on that too, it's not just going to be our ships and strikecraft that need them.

Speaking of strikecraft, the only thing Fatesever PD's can do is kill strikecraft and ordinance really well.

A Fatesever Cannon equipped strikecraft however can not only do that too but can also operate planetside as a solid tank hunter and air superiority fighter since while Fatesevers won't do much to starships they can certainly wreck tanks and other ground vehicles.

But yeah, there are just so many better more versatile uses for Psy-Scopes and while I don't disagree that Fatesever PD would be extremely good at its job we have a limited budget of Psy-Scopes and I'd rather spend them on areas where they'd have the most and greatest impact.
 
At the very least we should change our PD and CIWB grids to something besides las.
 
peaking of strikecraft, the only thing Fatesever PD's can do is kill strikecraft and ordinance really well.

A Fatesever Cannon equipped strikecraft however can not only do that too but can also operate planetside as a solid tank hunter and air superiority fighter since while Fatesevers won't do much to starships they can certainly wreck tanks and other ground vehicles.

But yeah, there are just so many better more versatile uses for Psy-Scopes and while I don't disagree that Fatesever PD would be extremely good at its job we have a limited budget of Psy-Scopes and I'd rather spend them on areas where they'd have the most and greatest impact.

Well, it depends, given they work at void combat engagement ranges the reach of a FateScope seems long enough for a naval ship to sit at the edge of the atmosphere* and fire the Fatesever cannons as very accurate orbital fire support 'rods-from-god'. Given they'd start with orbital velocity and that the rounds from Fatesever cannons are probably decently sized they'd probably be very dangerous, scaling up to the size of a decent sized bomb which our ground forces could call in to precisely hit enemy vehicles or high value targets.

* the 60 mile thick atmosphere of a terrestrial planet is probably a lot less than the engagement range of most void strikecraft or the distance at which PD wants to engage things like torpedoes.
 
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Fatetwisters meanwhile aren't just incredibly lethal anti-ship weapons since they never miss and have a very high chance of dealing critical damage but basically remove any need for CIWB (system slot heavy) on a ship since they would be able to cover the entire ship unlike our other naval weapons.

Are you sure of that?

The weapon's description notes that they can fire "significantly off bore", which is a considerable improvement over your traditional macro-cannon, but I'm not sure that means they are better than our other options at it. Just less bad than a macro cannon would be.
 
Are you sure of that?
Here's the relevant quote:
The principal advantage of Fatetwister Cannon batteries is that the enemy cannot, in fact, "walk out of the firing cone," because the things are using space-time manipulation for homing bullets and therefore have more of a firing sphere.
Fatetwister batteries have total coverage.

I wouldn't want to use them for point defense, but we don't need a second set of guns to keep destroyers off our rear.
 
They also cost way less per slot and can be distributed more widely and just offers more coverage in general.

Like we probably wouldn't want to spend 120 Psy-Scopes (60 guns per escort PD grid) just to get a Fatesever PD grid on a Ketch but spending 36-72 per capital scale hangar (3 squadrons) for a light cruiser whose strikecraft can can go support that Ketch or some other ship would be way more acceptable and gives all our ships the ability to get Fatesever coverage.

Meanwhile a Fatesever PD grid on a Combat Brig wouldn't be able to help that Ketch unless the Ketch either runs to the Brig or the Brig runs to the Ketch, both of which are surrendering your ships tactical independence.

The lower raw fire-rate matters a lot less too when the time where they'll be actively shooting will be much higher than a shipboard PD grid.

Given our intention is to design an interceptor armed with one or two of them we might not even give them anti-ship weapon so the likelihood of actually exposing them to ship grade PD fire isn't very high.

Barring us developing some truly nasty strikecraft ordinance our main striking arm will be our shipboard weapon batteries with strikecraft relegated to the nonetheless critical of handling enemy strikecraft and ordinance.


...

The PDF of the Brig is there to protect the Brig not other ships.
That is the whole point.

And if our strikecraft are not really relevant to our fighting style in the void* why would we try to force and find a use for them using the exotics type we have by far the hardest time to mass produce ?

On the Brig they are (or at least will be) justified by the double Megacaster Starlances that alone cost 2000 crystals.
To pretty much kill any chance of a lucky/cheeky strikecraft squad or torpedo salvo from pretty much mobility killing the ship.

*as in the all the damage comes from the actual ship weapons.

Are you sure of that?

The weapon's description notes that they can fire "significantly off bore", which is a considerable improvement over your traditional macro-cannon, but I'm not sure that means they are better than our other options at it. Just less bad than a macro cannon would be.

Yeah, Fateweapons are BS.
They always hit unless you have an shield (like conversion or grav-shield) and always hit a weakpoint.
Still the Vehicle version isn't going to do shit against ships, the scale is just too off.
 
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...

The PDF of the Brig is there to protect the Brig not other ships.
That is the whole point.

And if our strikecraft are not relevant to our fighting style in the void why would we try to force and find a use for them using the exotics type we have by far the hardest time to mass produce ?

On the Brig they are (or at least will be) justified by the double Megacaster Starlances that alone cost 2000 crystals.
To pretty much kill any chance of a lucky/cheeky strikecraft squad or torpedo salvo from pretty much mobility killing the ship.




Yeah, Fateweapons are BS.
They always hit unless you have an shield (like conversion or grav-shield) and always hit a weakpoint.
Still the Vehicle version isn't going to do shit against ships, the scale is just too off.
Well to put my nerd glasses on, a PD Net is just there to keep munitions from entering a specific area, and you can combine PD nets from multiple ships to increase overall effectiveness (more guns) or to cover an exposed flank.
 
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