As I say, I don't get it.
Hijiri's problem is the worry that she's a "doll" and "disposable".

Gemming her will demonstrate to her that we consider her a toy to be turned off at will if she inconveniences us.

In canon, the single reason she was such an asshole to everyone is that she saw the Pleiades gemming magical girls that they fought. Before that she just had a nasty grudge. And we've already seen that Hijiri. We can deal with that Hijiri. She's whiny and emo and pathetic, but she's not crazy or evil. After seeing the freezer, she becomes a psycho. It's not just inferred or implied; she says it flat-out. It's the single event that defines her character arc and motivates her, the same way that Batman is defined by his parents' death and how Homura's character is defined by Madoka's death in that first loop.

If we gem her, we will define her character to be exactly the person that everyone is worrying about. Right now she has a bit of a grudge, and one that we can deal with. Oriko was a bigger challenge. If we gem her, she will turn into the psycho that the other party thinks they're dealing with right now, the one that is willing to kill anyone and everyone and will try to make sure they suffer as they die. We can't deal with that.

The thing is, she doesn't have to become that person. People change. Just because someone can be a certain way doesn't guarantee that they are that way. Mumi isn't tetrising right now. Sayaka isn't witching out. Kyouko isn't talking shit about eating people or feeding witches. And we can still social Hijiri. She's not even as bad as Oriko! Look at how much progress we've made with her! Just in the last real update, before Sabrina said something that nobody was actually voting for, look at her body language and what she was saying! She's hunched in on herself, she's telling us to cut it out - not to stop playing games, or that she doesn't need to pretend any more. We've actually been getting through to her. And now we have an opportunity.

"I can't help you."

"Yeah, what I want is impossible."

"X and Y and Z all say that it's possible, you've just given up. I can't do it for you, but you can do it for yourself if you get your shit together and try harder."

"...Oh."

There's no "Trying the same thing over and over" here. We've been making progress the entire time and we have a chance here to finish it. Look at my proposed vote. I expect to hit her hard enough with this last speech that she turns around and comes back to us. That's how vulnerable I think she is right now. That's why I think "gem her" vs. "let her go" is a false dichotomy. That's why I'm so fucking dismissive of both of those parties. I think that we can fix her and we can do it right now.

And even if we don't? If she keeps running away? I think that it'll hit her hard enough that she'll just slink back to her cave and cry to herself for a while. And then we're going to go find her in six or eight hours and she'll be all softened up and ready for Social-Fu Round Two.
 
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Yeah alright, I'm convinced.

[X] Vebyast

I like your speech a little better, even if Kai has more comfortable contingencies.
 
Somewhat changing topic , did Vebyast ever actually explain where the got the idea, and the basis, for their whole speech being a play to pride?

What gave the idea that Hijiri was so motivated by pride, and would be so riled up by mocking her about weakness and quitting, that it would not only cause a productive behaviour shift but would be so very effective they think the opportunity for it is a literal act of God AND an example of the Author overruling a vote by Fiat to hint at and provide this pride attack?

Some of the people voting for the plan are pushing the idea that Hijiri's overwhelming motivation is a desire to get away from the conflict and have control, what about that implies a drive of pride and strength that will make them come back towards the thing they're supposedly fleeing from rather than walk off silently and never be seen again by their controllers?
 
The real question is how Hijiri would react to the revelation that Sabrina is an artificial being who was created with the specific purpose of running around and fixing every Magical Girl's problems. And that she does so happily except for when others decide to make it difficult.
 
[] Hijiri:
-[] Don't stop her. Open telepathy.
-[] You sympathize. Better than she might think; your origins were similar and your goals looked just as impossible. But this? She's just going to give up?
-[] You have given yourself the goal of changing the world to make impossible goals possible. Whatever it is Hijiri really wants, you guarantee that you can help her get it. If that's moving to California and away from Niko, you can help. If that's turning into not-a-clone-of-Niko, you can help. You can only guess right now, but if she's willing to talk to you, you can at least find a better solution for her than... this.
-[] If she won't talk to you, she should at least grill Kyubey. Omission and misdirection are its favorite tools. Any conclusions based on its claims are suspect. Don't let it evade, and be careful - its job is literally to cause distress.

[] Telepathy allies:
-[] Anri found. She has the clear seed. You're engaging.
-[] Hijiri's powerset is full Pleiades-union, she's teleported away. Only excessive force could stop her, you're continuing social-fu - you don't know why she didn't run earlier.

[] Break to vote if Mami preempts social and grabs Hijiri.

[] Crush Anri.
-[] Physical KO, no gemming - don't lichbomb anyone.
-[] Hand tracking off to other sensors - grief telescope, ribbons, etc - and help Mami recover. If necessary, retreat to buy time.
-[] Don't let her gain telepathy.
-[] Body-kill is fine - good, even - if you can pass it off as unconsciousness.

Somewhat changing topic , did Vebyast ever actually explain where the got the idea, and the basis, for their whole speech being a play to pride?
It's not about pride. This:
"You can't give me what I want," Hijiri says with a bitter smile
This is a girl that has given up on her dreams. We can give them back to her. Whatever they are. We'll need to find those out - she may not quite know what they are herself, she's an emo teen girl that's flailing wildly to try to recapture any sense of control over her life - but once we do that there isn't really anything we can't fix. And all we have to do to get her to turn around is to convince her of that. That's it. It's that easy.
 
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-[] Body-kill is fine - good, even - if you can pass it off as unconsciousness.

No. What? How are you going to pass off a body kill as unconsciousness? No. Just use overwhelming force and subdue the shit out of her.

-[] If she won't talk to you, she should at least grill Kyubey. Omission and misdirection are its favorite tools. Any conclusions based on its claims are suspect. Don't let it evade, and be careful - its job is literally to cause distress.

Too heavy. Just get her to question the damn thing: while I understand wanting to warn about distress, since she is not lichbombed she has no context for why that is important.

Whatever it is Hijiri really wants, you guarantee that you can help her get it.

Well, clearly she thinks otherwise, and this is coming before you've challenged that belief at all, so...

your goals looked just as impossible.

Bull. I mean, I get why you're saying it, and it's not that wrong, but... I think it's bull. Our goals are lofty, not impossible.

-[] You sympathize. Better than she might think; your origins were similar

I remain skeptical of this, primarily on the premise of security. This vote essentially sends a packet containing "Sabrina was created by a wish" over a line operated by Kyubey. The next logical question becomes "Whose wish?" I suspect Kyubey would be capable of deriving the potential bomb from this, which as we know by WOG would give Kyubey a... problematic weapon.
 
No. What? How are you going to pass off a body kill as unconsciousness? No. Just use overwhelming force and subdue the shit out of her.
Whack her on the head. Is her head spread out on the ground like a rotten watermelon that you've dropped from the top of a building? No? Well, you hit her on the head hard enough to knock her instantly unconscious, so if she isn't already dead she at least has a concussion bad enough that she should be in the ICU. But! It'll match every TV show you've ever seen where the hero gets hit in the back of the head with a brick and wakes up like he's just gotten a refreshing six-hour nap. So the Pleiades won't even think about it - We just "knocked her out", no big deal.
Too heavy. Just get her to question the damn thing: while I understand wanting to warn about distress, since she is not lichbombed she has no context for why that is important.
I'm more concerned with giving her a reason to think twice about everything Kyubey says - assume that everything he says was phrased to cause maximum damage. A better wording would be appreciated.
Bull. I mean, I get why you're saying it, and it's not that wrong, but... I think it's bull. Our goals are lofty, not impossible.
That's exactly the mindset we're looking to transfer to her! Goals are not impossible - they're lofty.
I remain skeptical of this, primarily on the premise of security. This vote essentially sends a packet containing "Sabrina was created by a wish" over a line operated by Kyubey. The next logical question becomes "Whose wish?" I suspect Kyubey would be capable of deriving the potential bomb from this, which as we know by WOG would give Kyubey a... problematic weapon.
This is why I've been against this since the very beginning. I still think that it just plain isn't going to help. I think that, even if we were created by a wish, our situation is so totally and utterly different that this is just going to hurt us in the long run when she starts asking question - "Why were you created?" "To do exactly what I'm doing." "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on." - and she's going to view it as manipulation. I don't think that Hijiri is far enough gone into her madness for this to hit her over the head the way people are expecting. But I'm too fucking tired to argue, and if I take it out everyone is going to harp about it and I could totally forget about getting anything useful about the rest of my vote. So it goes in, at least until I have a vote that I don't hate.
 
The real question is how Hijiri would react to the revelation that Sabrina is an artificial being who was created with the specific purpose of running around and fixing every Magical Girl's problems. And that she does so happily except for when others decide to make it difficult.
It really depends. In Kazumi Magica, she was obsessed with Kazumi and wanted the latter to team up with her to make a world full of artificial beings, but that was honestly at the point when Hijiri's mental state went off the deep end. Even then, Kazumi's status as an artificial being didn't influence Hijiri that much, as her reaction to Kazumi refusing her plan was essentially "well screw you then".

For this sort of Hijiri, the status of Sabrina's (maybe) origins and disposition may affect her to some degree, but it definitely won't turn her around completely. Keep in mind that Sabrina and Hijiri's situation are completely different, as the former was meant to be her own person and the latter was meant to be an outright replacement with a specific goal in mind. The reason she related to Kazumi so much was because they were both intended to be outright replacements for other people.
 
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How are their origins remotely similar, though? Far as we know, not only is Sabrina not an actual copy as far as we know, but her reaction to the reveal that she may have been artificially created was the complete opposite of Hijiri's. Not really caring, completely embracing her "purpose", and befriending and helping the person who might have created her.

She might not even be an artificial creation to be exact, but a former Witch turned human, depending if you believe in the UK/Walpurgis theory.
 
Keep in mind that Sabrina and Hijiri's situation are completely different, as the former was meant to be her own person and the latter was meant to be an outright replacement with a specific goal in mind.
I'd argue that Sabrina was created with an specific goal in mind, which happens to be 'be the meguca guardian angel and save the universe, no pressure'. Whereas Hijiri was created to live a normal, happy life with a family she loves and who love her back.

So Sabrina could complain that Hijiri got it ridiculously easy.
 
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I'd argue that Sabrina was created with an specific goal in mind, which happens to be 'be the meguca guardian angel and save the universe, no pressure'. Whereas Hijiri was created to live a normal, happy life with a family she loves and who love her back.
The first part is arguable considering that we still have no proof other than speculation that Sabrina was created for that specific purpose. Even then, it's a vague enough purpose that Sabrina can basically execute it in any way that she desires provided she actually wants to do it (which she does). Sabrina doesn't have to be the meguca savior and save the universe in order to fulfill her supposed purpose, because as far as we knows, there's no actual compulsion that's forcing her to do so. It's just her personality and choices that make her interpret her supposed goal as that.

Hijiri was made so that Niko could run away from her problems and also vicariously live a happy life through the former. Despite the former getting stuck with a nice situation, it's still messed up on multiple levels, especially considering the "two kids got killed with a gun" incident is still a thing and Hijiri was purposely not given memories about it. It's nice on the surface, but screwed up considering everything else about it.
So Sabrina could complain that Hijiri got it ridiculously easy.
I'm pretty sure something like this would make Hijiri give Sabrina the middle finger while telling her that she can take her high horse and stuff it.
 
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This is why I've been against this since the very beginning. I still think that it just plain isn't going to help. I think that, even if we were created by a wish, our situation is so totally and utterly different that this is just going to hurt us in the long run when she starts asking question - "Why were you created?" "To do exactly what I'm doing." "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on." - and she's going to view it as manipulation. I don't think that Hijiri is far enough gone into her madness for this to hit her over the head the way people are expecting. But I'm too fucking tired to argue, and if I take it out everyone is going to harp about it and I could totally forget about getting anything useful about the rest of my vote. So it goes in, at least until I have a vote that I don't hate.

No.

It's not in my vote vebyast. I have twenty-five votes and it's not in my vote.
 
No.

It's not in my vote vebyast. I have twenty-five votes and it's not in my vote.
Yeah, I know, I'm complaining at everyone else. I'm not in a particularly good mood right now. I think that your vote is missing things and I want to build something better, but I can't do that unless my "better vote" proposals have it.
 
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I remain skeptical of this, primarily on the premise of security. This vote essentially sends a packet containing "Sabrina was created by a wish" over a line operated by Kyubey. The next logical question becomes "Whose wish?" I suspect Kyubey would be capable of deriving the potential bomb from this, which as we know by WOG would give Kyubey a... problematic weapon.
If you're that worried don't raise it in terms of "I was created by a wish" Bring it up in terms of suspecting having similar origins, or being "pretty sure" of it. If pressed, not unlikely with that track, go into waking up in an alley with no knowledge of ourself but all sorts of knowledge about what we could do, and an inclination to do it. There's plenty of room to talk about this from the perspective of the stuff we let Kyuubey in on.

Beyond that, I'll note that particular worry is meaningless in that we've had it explicitly stated that Kyuubey already has the potentialbomb. Or whatever it was Oriko was talking about if not that. He's had it for nearly two weeks now.
 
Okay, it won't make Kyubey a bigger threat.

I still think that it'll hurt our argument with Hijiri in the long run. It's barely relevant, she will ask questions, and we're going to look like we almost lied to manipulate her. Which, given that we just complained about Kyubey, not such a good idea.

Do we have any other feedback? Or are we fucked no matter what I do because we're going to fight to the death over this useless bikeshed, in or out?
 
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Okay, it won't make Kyubey a bigger threat.

I still think that it'll hurt our argument with Hijiri in the long run. It's barely relevant, she will ask questions, and we're going to look like we almost lied to manipulate her. Which, given that we just complained about Kyubey, not such a good idea.

Do we have any other feedback? Or are we fucked no matter what I do because we're going to fight to the death over this useless bikeshed, in or out?

Um, I will note that the model posits that almost the entire reason Hijiri is so fucked up is that her entire exposure to Niko is/was what Kyubey had said to her.

So... IMHO I think if she starts thinking about it and considering what might be the case if QB lied to her...
 
Um, I will note that the model posits that almost the entire reason Hijiri is so fucked up is that her entire exposure to Niko is/was what Kyubey had said to her.

So... IMHO I think if she starts thinking about it and considering what might be the case if QB lied to her...
IIRC, the final straw was that she found a newspaper clipping talking about the Incident that caused all of Niko's issues in the first place. She's also operating off of whatever Anri told her; remember her thing about "she showed me the truth". And then there's the possibility that Niko actually was spying on her in a way that she could detect. I think that telling her to go grill Kyubey is useful, but she needs more than just that.
 
Also, this may just be me, but there was a disconcerting level of gratuitous quasi-nudity in those transformation sequences. I don't remember that actually being a thing in the Madoka show. Except for the "Naked Homura in Space" part at the end, aka "Don't watch these episodes at Panera Bread on your lunch break". Could have done without that.

Also, you're misremembering; quasi-nudity in transformations was a thing in the original series (at least for Mami and Homura, off the top of my head), and has been a trope of the magical girl genre for basically forever.

Hmmm. I do remember the opening sequence being awkward. More for Madoka being put in humiliating clothes than nudity, but maybe my mind is editing stuff.
Partially: the opening scene was part magical girl transformation, part episode 12 (with Madoka instead of Homu, but obvious Madokami forshadowing). Other than that...it's all pretty clothed: the only one that isn't was one of Homu's, and maybe some Rebellion esc 'naked coloured shapes'.
It's a magical girl trope. Wasn't seen as appropriate for the series itself, because of themes, but you can bet they're going to want to cram it into everything they can.
You've got to play it straight before you can crush everyone's hopes and dreams :p .
 
I think this thread needs a vote tally update. Tally coming very soon, to a quest thread near you.
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Dec 15, 2017 at 9:10 PM, finished with 486 posts and 46 votes.

  • [X] Let Hijiri go.
    -[X] ... unless Mami can stop her with ribbons, in which case, emphatically do not stop Mami from stopping Hijiri with ribbons. (If this happens, immediately break to voting. Absolutely no pauses.)
    -[X] Reply to Hijiri via telepathy: I think you'll find that the "can's" and "cant's" of the world are very different from how Kyubey would imply them to be. Lying by omission has been the majority of his job since before the dawn of history, not that he'd characterize it that way.
    [X] Take down and capture Anri ASAP.
    -[X] Use overwhelming speed, force, and defense (solid Grief). Accept Mami's support.
    -[X] Mami stays out of hearing range.
    --[X] Knock Anri out.
    [X] Telepathy the Pleiades, Sayaka, Mami: Hijiri, it would seem, has the entire powerset, including teleportation and fast transit. Why she didn't just break that out the first time you have no idea, but you completely failed to anticipate it and you had no way to stop her without excessive force, which... you don't think Niko would have wanted. Anri is caught and has the clear seed with her.
    -[X] Meet up? Anri will keep but you should probably discuss Hijiri.
    [x] So she's giving up because her perfect life can't be handed to her on a platter? It'd be ironic if it weren't so pathetic. She needs to try harder if she wants to achieve her goals.
    [x] After that, broadcast, including to Hijiri: Let her go. She's not going to try anything.
    [x] Hand tracking of Anri off to another sensor suite - grief telescope, more focused Mami ribbons, something else - and disconnect so Mami can start getting back up to speed.
    [x] Fade back to buy time.
    [x] Tell the Pleiades to form a perimeter.
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [x] Gem her
    [X] Fully encase her in Grief, pulling from all of the Grief that's immediately available closest to her. Yank her Soul Gem--though don't take it out of range. She'll only lose the connection if she teleports out herself.
    [x] "I think I was also created by someone's wish, Hijiri. I was hoping we'd be able to connect over that. Please stay and we can work this out together"
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri ASAP.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X] null
    [X] Cause Hijiri physical pain.
    -[X] If that fails, if feasible, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range. Rush her if she stops moving towards us.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashbang style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X] Any vote that doesn't involve deliberately hurting a 14 year old girl.
 
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