Neither of these will work. Aura's trying the same thing we've been trying. Not only has that not been working, it's even less likely to work now that Sabrina fucked up and wrecked Hijiri's ability to trust us. Onmur's just plain going to kill her, and she'll suffer the entire time. Even odds she just plain witches out. She needs a kick in the ass, a motivational speech that gives her a reason to try, not more of the same or a jail cell.

[x] So she's giving up because her perfect life can't be handed to her on a platter? It'd be ironic if it weren't so pathetic. She needs to try harder if she wants to achieve her goals.

I really should be sleeping, but...

Add more to that if you want votes. An approach to Airi, and an express confirmation one way or the other about what to do if she doesn't listen to that.
 
I reject this premise completely. Nobody witches out within our wheelhouse unless we explicitly allow them to.
Unless we watch her literally 24/7, she will find a way to witch out. And I can guarantee we won't be watching her 24/7 because she's going to be continually pissing the thread off, enough so that the other fifty percent is that the thread votes to gemsmash her. After these last few days of discussion I am more than willing to believe that she can do that. She probably wouldn't even need to try.
I really should be sleeping, but...

Add more to that if you want votes. An approach to Airi, and an express confirmation one way or the other about what to do if she doesn't listen to that.
I'm not convinced that we're allowed to do that - the directive was that we got to do one thing. But sure.

[x] So she's giving up because her perfect life can't be handed to her on a platter? It'd be ironic if it weren't so pathetic. She needs to try harder if she wants to achieve her goals.
[x] After that, broadcast, including to Hijiri: Let her go. She's not going to try anything.

[x] Hand tracking of Anri off to another sensor suite - grief telescope, more focused Mami ribbons, something else - and disconnect so Mami can start getting back up to speed.
[x] Fade back to buy time.
[x] Tell the Pleiades to form a perimeter.

@Firnagzen: If you decide to call the vote, and my vote hasn't won, put anything I accumulate toward Aura. "Does fucking nothing" is better than "Kills Hijiri slowly".
 
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I reject this premise completely. Nobody witches out within our wheelhouse unless we explicitly allow them to.
We can't be everywhere all the time and there's no guarantee of her response being entirely front loaded. Mami's worst moment came most of a week after the lichbomb and even the moment that probably aggravated it, nearly losing us, had a day in between it and the relapse.
 
Gimme that vote Onmur, you're forgetting that Anri is out of our range and we just dropped the ribbon-powered extension, but otherwise it seems intelligent. I honestly like the last line better than what I had. Let her chill for a while and then if she keeps being chuuni and stupid, then call her on it -- calmly.

[X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
-[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
[X] Have Mami restrain Anri -- and have Mami grab her soul gem, too. Don't communicate that out loud, use telepathy.
-[X] If Anri gets away, sic the other eight meguca here on her.
[X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.

Gemming anybody here is still dumb. I'm pretty confident Mami can just lock Anri up like she's Homura in canon, and there's no reason she can't grab her soul gem with ribbons at the same time, really.

Unless we watch her literally 24/7, she will find a way to witch out. And I can guarantee we won't be watching her 24/7 because she's going to be continually pissing the thread off, enough so that the other fifty percent is that the thread votes to gemsmash her. After these last few days of discussion I am more than willing to believe that she can do that. She probably wouldn't even need to try.

You seem to be operating under the misconception that this is about "establishing dominance" or something in the vein of that... Unmentionable stupidity from when we metabombed Sayaka.

That is not the point here. There are multiple points here, but that is not one.

Point number one is that the Pleiades are trusting us not to let this person go.

Point number two is that Hijiri is openly lying -- by omission, yes, but lying -- to us and has been this entire time.

Point number three is that you are, to a degree, correct -- the thread is somewhat angry and maybe we shouldn't be.

My reaction here is that letting her leave, no matter what we believe will happen with her, is idiotic for the same reasons that the law doesn't let people off "because people believe that the accused will behave well in the foreseeable future." It's not about dominance, it's not personal, it's a matter of credibility and the establishment of trust & expectation. Hijiri has not (willingly) done one thing right by us this entire time. You're an incredibly intelligent person, I think you can understand where I'm going with this -- if we'll let Hijiri do it, who else will we let get away with what.

I know that maybe this seems like a far off thing that doesn't really matter or shouldn't really apply because metaknowledge, but I mean, this does have some amount of repercussion for even Mitakihara's perception of our interactions with Oriko. If Homura or Mami or Sayaka believe that if Oriko goes off and fucks around again we would forgive her again despite having made it clear that we're not okay with that, that does have repercussions. Potentially light ones, sure, but they're there.

That is why I'm not okay with letting Hijiri go here. If your vote worked, it would be incredible, but it isn't as low risk as you're arguing.

I don't have any idea why you're arguing that preventing her from leaving atm "kills her slowly" or some shit. Is that about the lichbomb? That shouldn't be a thing anyway.
 
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Would you mind going back over the logic linking "not letting Hijiri go" and "Hijiri dies"? I must be missing something...?
I don't have any idea why you're arguing that preventing her from leaving atm "kills her slowly" or some shit. Is that about the lichbomb? That shouldn't be a thing anyway.
Every single part of Hijiri's problem is that she is lashing out at people that she feels are controlling her. You know what's going to happen if we KO her or lock her up when she is actively trying to resist? She's going to fight back. She'll be even more fucked up than Akiko ever was, except she's not going to be catatonic, she's going to be trying to force us to kill her.
 
you're forgetting that Anri is out of our range

... I meant as soon as she's in range. I believe she might be almost there, since she was rushing us before the previous update, but edited.

[X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
-[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
[X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range.
-[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
-[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
[X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.

What I can't agree with is this:
-[X] If Anri gets away, sic the other eight meguca here on her.
Isn't Anri still a Witchbomb threat? Wicthbombed guca only capture (if Gemming fails)?

(Also, the reason I put more examples of distracting Anri is because Mami might nor be available.)
 
Would you mind going back over the logic linking "not letting Hijiri go" and "Hijiri dies"? I must be missing something...?

Gemming Hijiri might as well be gemsmashing because that's the only way to prevent her from grief-spiralling into wanting to kill all humans.

Any other form of imprisonment is either impossible, unethical, or hits her issues in the same way as gemming her. She's done all this because she feels she has no control and everyone's trying to put her in a Dollhouse, and to an extent she's completely right.
 
Every single part of Hijiri's problem is that she is lashing out at people that she feels are controlling her. You know what's going to happen if we KO her or lock her up when she is actively trying to resist? She's going to fight back. She'll be even more fucked up than Akiko ever was, except she's not going to be catatonic, she's going to be trying to force us to kill her.

I am highly confident in our ability to hold Hijiri without killing her, for the same reasons that if, hypothetically, we had to fight the Pleiades, I am completely confident in our ability to beat their entire team without lethal force. Better yet, we're not even doing this alone.

Beyond that, I think you're significantly overestimating Hijiri. She's not (relative to us) powerful, and she's not terribly wise. I think she's a lot less fucked up than Akiko -- she doesn't have the necessary traumas for that. Niko wished into existence a copy of herself minus her worst memory. Hijiri simply doesn't have the problems needed to be as fucked up as you're hypothesizing -- unless there is something incredibly fucked up going on, like, I dunno, Hijiri keeps finding out about Niko and Niko wipes her mind or somesuch (which seems super unlikely following the hug-cry scene), Hijiri's biggest problem so far arose from... Essentially a teenage existential crisis. That's underselling it, yes, but not heavily, presuming again that there isn't something more fucked up happening.

So, here's my argument. She can't be more fucked up than Akiko, and we are completely capable of restraining her in totality without being forced to actually hurt her. And she can chill like that until she is calm, whether that takes minutes or hours.
 
Any other form of imprisonment is either impossible, unethical, or hits her issues in the same way as gemming her.

I take direct issue with this line. I don't think there is anything stopping us from, for example, cocooning her in ribbons and just resisting any attempt to escape them with sheer, massive application of magic.
 
I am highly confident in our ability to hold Hijiri without killing her, for the same reasons that if, hypothetically, we had to fight the Pleiades, I am completely confident in our ability to beat their entire team without lethal force. Better yet, we're not even doing this alone.

Beyond that, I think you're significantly overestimating Hijiri. She's not (relative to us) powerful, and she's not terribly wise. I think she's a lot less fucked up than Akiko -- she doesn't have the necessary traumas for that. Niko wished into existence a copy of herself minus her worst memory. Hijiri simply doesn't have the problems needed to be as fucked up as you're hypothesizing -- unless there is something incredibly fucked up going on, like, I dunno, Hijiri keeps finding out about Niko and Niko wipes her mind or somesuch (which seems super unlikely following the hug-cry scene), Hijiri's biggest problem so far arose from... Essentially a teenage existential crisis. That's underselling it, yes, but not heavily, presuming again that there isn't something more fucked up happening.

So, here's my argument. She can't be more fucked up than Akiko, and we are completely capable of restraining her in totality without being forced to actually hurt her. And she can chill like that until she is calm, whether that takes minutes or hours.

I've practically posted essays on how Hijiri canonically responds to girls being degemmed with an absolute homicidal melt-down. It plays directly into her fears about being a puppet to be pushed around at someone else'd convenience and only able to perform as they want her to. If you don't take her problems with utmost seriousness I will be fucking livid with you, Kaizuki. She will respond to our turning her fucking sentient mind off with a remote control for the crime of being annoying with absolute soul-twisting hatred and I won't blame her the least bit for it.

I take direct issue with this line. I don't think there is anything stopping us from, for example, cocooning her in ribbons and just resisting any attempt to escape them with sheer, massive application of magic.

Um...she'll magic-pulse out of them like she did before?
 
I do not have any mention of that after a search for "Hijiri ribbon" over the last two months. Cite?
Mami's shot booms out. It slashes across the distance, an easy half a kilometer.

She hits. Even from here you spot the explosion of golden ribbon - and then it bursts, puffing out into fragments.
Hijiiri is fast and good enough with her antimagic to make controlling her exceedingly difficult. And that's entirely ignoring the part where she'll be raging at us continually, which is going to make it Actually Impossible to apply therapy. Like, once she's mad enough at being confined that she's a rabid animal trying to kill herself or anyone near her... what's your plan? What's your endgame? How does it turn out? And that's if she doesn't just piss the thread off enough that they push through "[x] gemsmash" no matter what the reasonable people want.
 
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Yea, pretty much. Her antimagic means we literally can't restrain her properly as long as she's conscious, and if we somehow do she's going to be frothing at the mouth, ignoring everything we say as she tries to claw her way free and destroy everything in her path to freedom.

Showing her we're willing to actually let her go as a gesture of good faith is the only thing I see making her even slightly amenable to talking to Sabrina, in the long or short term. That, and dropping the point about us being like her, so she's surprised enough to at least be curious about what we're getting at.

We fucked up with her. This is the only way I can foresee to salvage the situation. The Pleiades might not like it, but the alternative is Hijiri basically never going home, ever.

Niko's going to lose no matter what, but my plan has a hope of eventual recovery.
 
I assume you're accounting for us betraying the Pleiades' trust souring/poisoning our relationship with them, possibly permanently in some cases, and have a plan for when Saki and Mirai decide we've gone rogue and run Hijiri down themselves.

I somehow kind of doubt they're going to swallow "If we don't let her get away with everything she'll die" as an explanation, given that she's been a hostile actor literally this entire time. I'm having extreme difficulty buying it, in point of fact.
 
@Firnagzen can you clarify: Anri has the clear seed.

As regards Hijiri...

Yea, pretty much. Her antimagic means we literally can't restrain her properly as long as she's conscious, and if we somehow do she's going to be frothing at the mouth, ignoring everything we say as she tries to claw her way free and destroy everything in her path to freedom.

Showing her we're willing to actually let her go as a gesture of good faith is the only thing I see making her even slightly amenable to talking to Sabrina, in the long or short term. That, and dropping the point about us being like her, so she's surprised enough to at least be curious about what we're getting at.

We fucked up with her. This is the only way I can foresee to salvage the situation. The Pleiades might not like it, but the alternative is Hijiri basically never going home, ever.

Niko's going to lose no matter what, but my plan has a hope of eventual recovery.

The way I see it, from what she's given us to understand, the following is what has happened.

At some point in the last week or so she made a wish to connect with the Pleiades Saints for some reason -- why? Unexplained, canon reason was so she could murder them all, PMAS reason is unknown but *clearly* wasn't something that she wanted to share with us, and *clearly* wasn't in the interest of *leaving* since she wouldn't have gotten the powerset she has making a wish like "I want to escape Niko Kanna!" Then, or before then, she ended up in contact with Anri Airi. We're going to assume she *didn't* realize Anri was insane until *after* Anri got her to commit burglary-home invasion-assault, despite the fact that she knew enough to make a wish which was (presumably, **given that she has their powers**) to connect to the Pleiades in some manner for some reason, which arguably shows malice and forethought in the burglary rather than desperation. She attacked Niko, ran, was captured, then tearfully begged her way out of being bound -- again, the implied nature of her wish almost certainly implies she was lying that entire time, although it is (barely) plausible that she honestly discovered that she was in over her head and decided she wanted out desperately. After being so paroled, on goodwill, trust, & decency freely extended, she conspired with Airi who *absolutely*, as *any* interpretation of her actions & story indicates, is batshit insane and, it should be pretty clear to Hijiri, is out to commit murder. She had ample time alone with us away from Niko or any of the other Pleiades to admit to this, have us deal with Anri in the interest of the public good, but instead she chose to aid, abet, and work with somebody she had to know was out for murder, *while she was paroled.* After realizing that she's been discovered, she is now trying to leave without any further discussion by displaying a "new" power that she hadn't shown before.

She begged, tearfully, for release and has violated the parole freely extended to her in favor of attacking us and now fleeing. She has tried to paint a picture of herself as desperate, someone in over their head, but the implied nature of her wish contradicts that inherently, her *active* violation of freely extended trust violates that *grievously*, and her utter disregard for any form of expected decency *disgusts* me.

The only mild explanation I can see is one where she "wished for all the power held by her oppressors" or something like that, and has flitted from one self-destructive act to another alternating between honest terror and total malice like a demented butterfly. Because with a wish like that, she wouldn't have gone to Niko's place unless she had decided that she wanted to fuck the Pleiades ocer -- she'd have had all the power she could have needed to escape. It would still imply active malice.

I'm actually fine with letting her go, with some *really* draconian additions to it, *because* there is a chance that she really does just want to leave, however small I think it is. But if we're going to do that, we should make it perfectly clear that it is her third and ultimate chance, and that there will not be a fourth. Because I think it's a shitton more likely that she's going to come back and try to screw the Pleiades than that she's going to leave, because I think there are myriad indicators that she has had malevolent intent; and also because if we believe the core element of her story, she *should have no interest in going anywhere near the Pleiades ever again* anyway.

That is the full take I have on the situation atm.
 
I assume you're accounting for us betraying the Pleiades' trust souring/poisoning our relationship with them, possibly permanently in some cases, and have a plan for when Saki and Mirai decide we've gone rogue and run Hijiri down themselves.

I somehow kind of doubt they're going to swallow "If we don't let her get away with everything she'll die" as an explanation, given that she's been a hostile actor literally this entire time. I'm having extreme difficulty buying it, in point of fact.
There's a reason that I'm saying that this is game over. We either end up gemsmashing Hijiri or the Pleiades never trust us again. We're fucked. End of story. Hooray.
 
There's a reason that I'm saying that this is game over. We either end up gemsmashing Hijiri or the Pleiades never trust us again. We're fucked. End of story. Hooray.

No, there is a middle ground if we want to take it. Bluntly, let her go with an open demand that if she wants to come back she does whatever the fuck they want, and be exactly as surprised as we actually are about the whole thing.

I thought she was going to attack us, not... Not pull a mover power and run away. It took like three pages for me to figure out that she wasn't attacking us. Whatever the fuck we were expecting I don't think it was this.
 
I assume you're accounting for us betraying the Pleiades' trust souring/poisoning our relationship with them, possibly permanently in some cases, and have a plan for when Saki and Mirai decide we've gone rogue and run Hijiri down themselves.

I somehow kind of doubt they're going to swallow "If we don't let her get away with everything she'll die" as an explanation, given that she's been a hostile actor literally this entire time. I'm having extreme difficulty buying it, in point of fact.

I trust the Pleiades to be repairable in the worst case as long as none of them are permanently hurt. I'm literally not even advocating "letting Hijiiri get away with everything", so please don't.

Kaizuki said:
At some point in the last week or so she made a wish to connect with the Pleiades Saints for some reason -- why? Unexplained, canon reason was so she could murder them all, PMAS reason is unknown but *clearly* wasn't something that she wanted to share with us, and *clearly* wasn't in the interest of *leaving* since she wouldn't have gotten the powerset she has making a wish like "I want to escape Niko Kanna!"

Not to be that guy, but this is the same universe where someone wishing to create a true Hero gives them the power to SEND PEOPLE TO HELL. Without knowing Hijiiri's exact wish I'm not comfortable speculating. Her wish could've easily been "I wish to have a link that only benefits me; I don't want to be on THEIR strings."

After being so paroled, on goodwill, trust, & decency freely extended, she conspired with Airi who *absolutely*, as *any* interpretation of her actions & story indicates, is batshit insane and, it should be pretty clear to Hijiri, is out to commit murder. She had ample time alone with us away from Niko or any of the other Pleiades to admit to this, have us deal with Anri in the interest of the public good, but instead she chose to aid, abet, and work with somebody she had to know was out for murder, *while she was paroled.* After realizing that she's been discovered, she is now trying to leave without any further discussion by displaying a "new" power that she hadn't shown before.

"Oh my god this Sabrina girl is trying to trick me with platitudes so I go back into the Dollhouse. She's conspiring with them. If I maneuver them into Airi as a distraction I can escape in the confusion."

She begged, tearfully, for release and has violated the parole freely extended to her in favor of attacking us and now fleeing. She has tried to paint a picture of herself as desperate, someone in over their head, but the implied nature of her wish contradicts that inherently, her *active* violation of freely extended trust violates that *grievously*, and her utter disregard for any form of expected decency *disgusts* me.

Wait what the fuck? She hasn't attacked us since the original beam when we first found her, what are you talking about?

The only mild explanation I can see is one where she "wished for all the power held by her oppressors" or something like that, and has flitted from one self-destructive act to another alternating between honest terror and total malice like a demented butterfly. Because with a wish like that, she wouldn't have gone to Niko's place unless she had decided that she wanted to fuck the Pleiades ocer -- she'd have had all the power she could have needed to escape. It would still imply active malice.

It's HIGHLY evident that if she simply ran, Niko would have pursued her wherever she went and tried to impose her own sense of what she thought was best for Hijiiri. AKA being in the Dollhouse. Shit, if I was her I would take some sort of measure to make sure that didn't happen. Maybe it wouldn't of been breakint into her home and robbing her, but since she didn't murder Niko when she had the perfect chance to do so risk-free with no chance of it being traced back to her in any way (as far as she could have possibly known), it means we're not dealing with canon murdercunt Hijiri.

I'm actually fine with letting her go, with some *really* draconian additions to it, *because* there is a chance that she really does just want to leave, however small I think it is. But if we're going to do that, we should make it perfectly clear that it is her third and ultimate chance, and that there will not be a fourth. Because I think it's a shitton more likely that she's going to come back and try to screw the Pleiades than that she's going to leave, because I think there are myriad indicators that she has had malevolent intent; and also because if we believe the core element of her story, she *should have no interest in going anywhere near the Pleiades ever again* anyway.

Sure, I can make that concession. Still wanna tell her about our suspected origin, though, see what that does.
 
No, that's way different from what you said before. That's also assuming Hijiri even thinks Airi is out for blood; again, Niko is not deceased (Airi has a specific motive of wanting to test if the Pleiades remember Yuuri and feel any remorse but there's no way to tell if Hijiri knows that or not).
 
Okay, so. Since I apparently literally can't sleep, I might as well post my thoughts. We have two cases in PMAS where someone made a wish that we know for certain is different from their canonical one - those cases being Kirika and Sayaka.

In both of those cases, their wish based powerset is significantly different. Additionally, Firnagzen has not shied away from altering the powersets of the Asunaro crew to make it suit his prefered story better. And yet, Hijiri retained the precise same power.

To me, this is actually fairly strong evidence that her wish is identical to her canonical one. Indeed, if her wish ends up being different from her canonical one in intent (intent being the most important factor in a wish), I'd consider leaving her powerset the same to have been a missed opportunity to communicate that.

And the intent behind Hijiri's canonical wish was to murder the Pleiades Saints. She's been confirmed by Oriko to have been the primary instigator of the break-in. Airi, who everyone here agrees is a lunatic, sees Hijiri as her mentor. And yet, we have given her olive branch after olive branch. And that wasn't - isn't - wrong. We have the power to back up our convictions to do the right thing.

But our time and attention is limited. If we let Hijiri go now, beyond the immediate social repercussions with the Plieades, and with everyone else who's looking to us to be able to establish an alternative to the current system, I'm extraordinarily concerned that Hijiri is going to hurt other people, and with all of the other commitments on our time, we may not stop her in time.

I'm not saying we should kill her. Given her issues with being a puppet, I'm not even saying we should gem her. But releasing her is a deeply unacceptable outcome on far too many levels for me to ignore.
 
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Super late and more finals tomorrow, so apologies if I don't update this smoothly

[X]Immediately: Apply stabs/griefwalling for teleport interrupt
[X]Keep Hijiri and Airi cleansed
[X]Pleiades:
-[X]Stand by, we'll have Airi contained in just a moment.
-[X]Could someone bus in the Kures?
[X]Hijiri:
-[X]We were created to help people-- everyone-- but our good will is finite and she is grievously abusing it.
-[X]She gets one more chance to tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help her God, and we will let her go.
--[X]What did she Wish for?
---[X]To escape and live a peaceful life: Call Hijiri out on her bullshit, demand answers-- she's either lying through her teeth or really fucking stupid.
---[X]To kill Niko/the Pleiades/see them suffer: We understand. Let her go; she can have a happier life somewhere else, and we're still willing to give her cleansing. However, she is banished from Asunaro effective immediately, on pain of death.
-[X]Apply stabs to any further teleportation attempts until we're done with her
[X]Gem Airi the moment she's in range; pursue if she attempts to escape
 
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