Voting is open
He doesn't know her. He's never met her. And he's extremely out of line in a way just being awkward doesn't make okay.
She's a celebrity. He's probably seen her on TV or whatever so he does kinda know her, even if not personally.
If he realizes his mistake he should try to fix it by changing his request instead of putting all this on Kakara to fix his creepy mistake that forces her into an extremely uncomfortable position.
He does try to fix it. Here's the relevant part for you and the others:
"That's my daughter's decision," says Dad, lifting off. "Kakara, give him your answer. I transfer my favor to you." He flies off back to the box and sits down.

Whispers chase each other around the arena for a moment as you stand, frozen with mortification, flattery, embarrassment, and a dozen other feelings you can't really name.

Tabe lifts his gaze up to you. His eyes widen, and you can see his nerve break. "I- sorry," he says, looking away. "I didn't mean- you can say no- no, of course you know you can say no, I meant-" He swallows, glancing around at the crowd as if suddenly recalling their presence. "...shit."

You let out a slightly shrill laugh at the swear. "...ye- yeah. Shit."

Kakara Goku.

You wince. Sorry, Dad!

"I shouldn't have put you on the spot," says Tabe, still not meeting your eyes. "I'm sorry."

Oddly, that makes you feel a little more settled. Not calm -- not when you've just had a boy close to your age ask you for a full-power, one-on-one fight in public -- but settled enough to at least try to react.
The bolded parts and Kakara's reaction quite clearly indicates that he tried to fix it by changing his request and clearly stating that it was totally up to her.
 
By putting it up to her still and just saying sorry to her while not addressing the crowd as a whole with actually altering his request means he's still put her in the same situation socially.

His request stands, and therefore his apologies don't amount to much of anything.

He's fixed nothing.

Edit: Anyways,

[x] No

Even if this is considered at all acceptable in Kakara's culture, it's not like she hasn't been highly counter culture before. This is no different.
 
Last edited:
Warning For Marginal Behavior
I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when the mod in question has never posted in the thread before, it's hard to see it as anything but you trying to shut down the other side.

I don't know all the mods so this might be something that happens for her, but calling in someone who is missing vital context to support your argument not something I see as normal.
What vital context would they be missing, exactly? This shit is creepy. It's not cool. Anyone who is voting yes is getting side-eyed, harshly.
 
I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when the mod in question has never posted in the thread before, it's hard to see it as anything but you trying to shut down the other side.

I don't know all the mods so this might be something that happens for her, but calling in someone who is missing vital context to support your argument not something I see as normal.
This whole thing has come up in a Discord chat and kicked off a discussion there. Stormwhite made a number of good points and demonstrated her knowledge on the subject, so after she said she was willing to come and talk about it if we tagged her I tagged her.
 
Warning For Marginal Behavior
What vital context would they be missing, exactly? This shit is creepy. It's not cool. Anyone who is voting yes is getting side-eyed, harshly.

Not as badly as the people who have never posted in this thread today, and only joined it to attack everyone inside it.

Go away Lazy, we aren't interested in your crap
 
Honestly, I'm mostly just irritated at the virtue politics. We could come up with an acceptable write-in if we weren't bickering about it.

e: But instead Yes is probably going to win and we'll live with the drawbacks of it instead of working toward a mutually-agreeable solution.
 
Last edited:
Dum-di-dum. No, I wasn't being called in as a moderator, but because I fairly frequently yell at people lecture on things like 'politics in narratives' on a discord we're both on.

Anyway, so, I notice people here are talking about how 'this isn't RL, this is fictional'. While I could be an ass and just post the below comic in response, I won't.


Instead, I'll talk about how the themes and framing of a work necessarily take a political stance. You cannot avoid your work commenting on sexism in some way, for example, if you have both male and female characters. Even if you do not intend to, the way you portray them will necessarily portray a certain stance. I had an interesting conversation with @Maugan Ra about this, and about how in his quest Of Noble Purpose, he'd completely accidentally portrayed Soul Society as incredibly egalitarian in regards to gender. He did not intend to do this, it didn't really cross his mind, but the work itself still took a stance on the matter.

This, incidentally, is why careful theming and framing is really important. It's not too far a stretch to accidentally write something that espouses some genuinely awful philosophy, simply because you weren't paying attention and got stuck too far into something. The writer retains sole responsibility for what is portrayed in their work. I suppose the classic example here is Perfect Lionheart, who I don't think sets out to write about awful people and to be horribly misogynistic, but it can't help but come across in his writing.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. It's fairly simple, really.

You cannot escape political stances in fiction.

Have you got any sort of romantic relationship? You've taken a stance on homosexuality. Just by using humans as your characters, you are necessarily taking stances on a number of things, from sexism to classism to all sorts of different ideologies. It's not something you can avoid doing. The excuse 'well it's fiction' isn't actually the cunning defense many people seem to think it is. That's not to say that you can't write about a sexist society without endorsing it, you absolutely can. You just need to be careful and mindful about how you portray things and your framing. Brave New World by Aldous Huxley is an excellent example of this, I would recommend reading it.


As to those speaking of 'virtue signaling' and 'white knighting', please forgive me but I'm going to go on a brief tangent for a moment. In communication science, there's a hypothesis called the narrative paradigm - well, it's a theory, not a hypothesis. Anyway, in the narrative paradigm, we view humans as storytelling creatures. On a fundamental level, humans conceptualise the world through narratives - Christianity, socialism, the 9/11 conspiracy theories - all narratives.

A narrative is accepted based on two things, history and background - that is, what narratives the person in question has already internalised. Leading on from this belief, counter-intuitive though it may seem is the idea that it's not actually possible to convince someone with a narrative that's entirely different to their own. To actually convince people, you have to create something that's acceptable by their narratives.

(Sick of the word narrative yet?)

Anyway, what I was leading up to is that it's basically impossible for the dreaded SJWs to actually convince someone who wasn't at least somewhat inclined to agree in the first place. But what they can do is create media attention, create charities, protest and make a noise. This makes it look like they're doing something - which they are! But, people who will never agree will still never agree; the greater benefit of this is that transpeople, homosexuals, those who feel like outcasts can feel like they have something to be proud of.

Like they have a home and someone who accepts them. Which, to social creatures like humanity, is far more important than most think.

This is without even getting into fun concepts like proliferation of ideas and narratives, which increase the chance of people who do find those narratives acceptable will then internalise them and join their voices with ours.

To summarise - don't dismiss even minor things like pronouns or the ever-present 'TITS OR GTFO' as 'irrelevant'. Attitudes, cultures and communication matter, even if you think they don't. "It's the internet" is neither an excuse, nor a defence.

/gets off soapbox
 
What vital context would they be missing, exactly? This shit is creepy. It's not cool. Anyone who is voting yes is getting side-eyed, harshly.

The context the anyone who isn't a participant of a quest lacks? Similar to why bringing people from outside a quest to swing a vote is something you're not supposed to do.

I, at least, am of the opinion that a specific culture forms in a thread over the course of a quest. That culture effects how everyone participates, and how different things are seen.

Not as badly as the people who have never posted in this thread today, and only joined it to attack everyone inside it.

Go away Lazy, we aren't interested in your crap

Oh shit, so that's why I don't recognize Lazy. I didn't want to assume since I'm so inactive these days.

This whole thing has come up in a Discord chat and kicked off a discussion there. Stormwhite made a number of good points and demonstrated her knowledge on the subject, so after she said she was willing to come and talk about it if we tagged her I tagged her.

Thank you for clarifying. I greatly dislike when people bring mods in before they're needed so I might have been a touch ... Shit, I need a better word than mean but my diction is failing me.
 
[x] Yes.


On an amusing tangent, weren't we considering offering this very thing (fighting at full power) as a prize a couple updates ago? With this context, that suddenly turns incredibly hilarious.:rofl:
 

That comic was probably the funniest thing I've read all day. Don't know if it was supposed to be, but it still was.
Adhoc vote count started by Blonddude42 on Nov 28, 2017 at 6:27 PM, finished with 100 posts and 18 votes.
 
[x] No

There's no reason to go along with it; we don't know him, and this is far too public. I'd be suspicious of his motives, personally.
Jaffur or Maya are acceptable; Any romance with Jaffur is automatically as his equal politically. At the same time, any romance with Maya is motivated by a deepening of the friendship we already have with her.

Further, remember; This is -very- public. It'd raise a lot of issues to say yes, and then turn around and waffle, or shoot him down later.
 
This whole thing has come up in a Discord chat and kicked off a discussion there. Stormwhite made a number of good points and demonstrated her knowledge on the subject, so after she said she was willing to come and talk about it if we tagged her I tagged her.
I see the Discord-clique of SV is hard at work policing quests for any problematic content.

You cannot escape political stances in fiction.
You people crack me up. I'm sorry if this is insulting but if you actually wanted to engage with the author of the story you should've written a PM to them with this in it. It's totally inappropriate to post it in the quest thread in my opinion, doubly so because you're a mod, or really on the quest sub-forum in general since it's so politically charged.
 
[x] No

Yeah, fuck that nonsense.

Don't abuse peer pressure kids, it makes you an asshole.
 
The context the anyone who isn't a participant of a quest lacks? Similar to why bringing people from outside a quest to swing a vote is something you're not supposed to do.

I, at least, am of the opinion that a specific culture forms in a thread over the course of a quest. That culture effects how everyone participates, and how different things are seen.

This was an interesting rebuttal that brought something to mind.

"Anyone who isn't a participant" is a very specific way of wording this, that while not intentional, implies some rather unfortunate things.

What makes someone a participant of a quest? Is it someone who reads every post right after it comes up and posts something very insightful nearly every time? Is it someone who reads votes when they can and only has the time or inclination to post a quick vote and nothing else? What about someone who can only vote every once in a while, but doesn't have a thread presence otherwise? What about the known-yet-unacknowledged lurkers? Those who might not read every update as soon as it comes up, or might not ever post in the thread, but they contribute to the QM through votes if nothing else?

What classifies someone as a 'participant'? Is it just those who are willing to argue and debate and praise or criticize the updates? If you think so, you are ignoring a massive amount of SV as a whole. As a (part-time, and largely unsuccessful) Quest writer myself, I can definitely tell you that I keep track of the people who give me likes even if they don't give me votes, and they count just as much as the people who spew words for pages upon pages.

Your idea of the thread culture is limited and only includes your bias, not the larger picture, or those you might be marginalizing.
 
[X] Yes.

While the context of the situation is dramatic, big public tournament etc..., this scene is not, just unexpected and awkward. There is no reason to refuse. Kakara is not pressured to go down and dirty with the new big man of the tribe, it's an overreaching teenager asking for a fight against a girl above his station, both politically and physically. We will decide whatever we want on the battlefield, either make him reach even higher heights on his big day or smack him like he was Icarus and humiliate him for his hubris.

Looking at the people condemning Tabe for putting Kakara on the spot and refusing the fight, I'm already seeing what the scene could look like : "How dare you ask Us for a fight? Grovel at my feet and apologize for aggressing me!" Argh. I need brain bleach.

Saiyans fight. They like expressing themselves in fighting. If you don't like that upstart Tabe, just kick his ass and be done with him.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top