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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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defenestrator said:
@Vebyast just an FYI, your plan has three votes for it, but it's not appearing in the vote tally.
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Veb wrote some proposal stuff but they haven't actually made a vote this round.

Onmur said:
There's something I really want to get done very soon (which is why I'm voting for it specifically, rather than leave it to chance if it comes up during 'theraphy').

Hijiri's left us open an opportunity to talk about her actions, the emotions behind them, the rationality of them... which we need to do, as she seems to be in some amount of denial.

First saying we should let her go earlier, scratch that, first using circular logic to justify why we went and captured her, then demanding to be let go after her attack on Niko, then her continued refusal to acknowledge responsibility for her actions.

As someone put it at some point, both Niko and Hijiri are girls who think rationally, whereas Hijiri right now? She would likely want to slap anyone she saw commiting the same amount of... rational failures she's making.

Talking about her actions, making her acknowledge responsibility for her actions (hey, didn't she want to make her own choices?! :eyeroll: )... that's the 'theraphy' I want to see happen.
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I think you have a point about taking this opportunity, but I'm not inclined to agree with the method. As far as I can see, while Niko (and by extension, likely Hijiri) are sciencey, they don't seem super reasoned to me. I get a feeling the both of them are very much going with their gut at any given moment rather than deliberately thinking things out.

SaltyWaffles said:
First off, thanks for actually replying and giving feedback. I appreciate it.

Second, while I kind of agree with you, it's probably the only way for us to get her to respond at this juncture.


Is it our Blackbird, or Kazumi's, or Sayaka's? Can't remember.

Either way, it's definitely time well spent. We need to figure out whether we've been deceived or misled now, not an hour from now. For all we know, Hijiri is pointing us in the wrong direction entirely, rendering a search by Sabrina and Mami pointless.

I mean, we're talking something that will take ten minutes at most.

If we are the ones flying the Blackbird, though, then I see your point, but we should still specify to do it once we reach the museum in the vote.


I don't really understand this reasoning. She attacked our allies and helped to rob them. Then she opened fire on us again. She's currently our prisoner. Her ally is still out there and still intent on hurting/killing our allies. Asking her to use a lie detector (one that actually works reliably) to verify that she's been telling the truth is absolutely our right, and she has no grounds to object.


That's literally the point of the lie detector. It's a way to make sure, since we don't necessarily trust her yet. It's not like it's offensive to ask--this is far too serious of a situation to not be sure, and if she's been telling the truth then it will improve her standing with us.


That's why it was just a proposal. It's checking with Mami to see if she thinks she could spread ribbons across the entire city, not conducting the plan right now.


IIRC, I tried to word it to imply that she doesn't have the full picture, not that everything is a lie.
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Hmmm... Doing the lie detector would be witchy, so I think it would have to be a secondary function of something else. (Like a chibi for instance)

Though I'm really just echoing Higure there.

That's about all I could say since I don't like skulduggery and I'm no good at it as a result. I much prefer to be blunt and direct. (Or at least, as direct as I am capable of... Which isn't very.)
 
I thought of something. Aren't there tells when someone uses telepathy?

[X] Keep abusing multitasking.

[X] Talk with Hijiri about her actions, and the rationality behind them.
-[X] Nudge to step back and consider whether she made the right call, or could do better.
-[X] Pay attention as to whether she's telepathying/subvocalizing.

[X] Airi: Call her by her real name.
-[X] Be brief:
--[X] Show condolence for her loss.
--[X] We don't understand everything, but we could, if we just talked.
--[X] Ask her to give us a chance.
-[X] If she blocks telepathy, insist as long as necessary.

[X] Hunting:
-[X] Group brainstorm searching methods.
--[X] Grief sensors (others should copy this); Ribbon Grid; Sayaklone Army; combos thereof.
--[X] Encourage others to propose ideas.
--[X] Ask Hijiri if she's willing to help find Yuuri.
--[X] Yuuri likes to spy and set up traps. Can we draw her out and counter ambush her?

Blue edit copied from The Phoenixian.
The Phoenixian said:
[X] Simultaneously: Yuuri
[X] Tell her you at least have important safety info for the clear seed.
- [X] Tell her you'd like to hear her side of things.
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I'm not sure about bringing up the Clear Seed at all right now, for a couple of reasons.

One is that if we get any words in right now, anything we say needs to hit home, as Airi doesn't want to talk with us right now. That would mean addressing personal issues.

Seconds is that... we'd basically be teeling Yuuri how she can weaponize Grief Seeds. And she would.
 
[x] Block Hijiri's telepathy using the memory device. It should work through the wall of the MOF. Ask first if appropriate.
[x] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri was screaming at her about there.
[x] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri said, all the way back then, that convinced her about the "truth".

[x] Ask Yuuri what she even wants. All you know is that she is, quote, "deranged". What did the Pleiades do to piss her off?

[x] Try to get Yuuri's phone number.

Sorry for being AFK the last couple days, I've been super focused on work. Will try to get some time tonight. I will say that I'm not happy with my vote and... not too happy with any of the others either. I feel like we're missing something here.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Nov 16, 2017 at 4:14 PM, finished with 129059 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] Keep abusing multitasking.
    [X] Talk with Hijiri about her actions, and the rationality behind them.
    -[X] Nudge to step back and consider whether she made the right call, or could do better.
    -[X] Pay attention as to whether she's telepathying/subvocalizing.
    [X] Airi: Call her by her real name.
    -[X] Be brief:
    --[X] Show condolence for her loss.
    --[X] We don't understand everything, but we could, if we just talked.
    --[X] Ask her to give us a chance.
    -[X] If she blocks telepathy, insist as long as necessary.
    [X] Hunting:
    -[X] Group brainstorm searching methods.
    --[X] Grief sensors (others should copy this); Ribbon Grid; Sayaklone Army; combos thereof.
    --[X] Encourage others to propose ideas.
    --[X] Ask Hijiri if she's willing to help find Yuuri.
    --[X] Yuuri likes to spy and set up traps. Can we draw her out and counter ambush her?
    [x] Block Hijiri's telepathy using the memory device. It should work through the wall of the MOF. Ask first if appropriate.
    [x] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri was screaming at her about there.
    [x] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri said, all the way back then, that convinced her about the "truth".
    [x] Ask Yuuri what she even wants. All you know is that she is, quote, "deranged". What did the Pleiades do to piss her off?
    [x] Try to get Yuuri's phone number.
    [X] Do something to force Yuuri to pay attention to us. Call her by her real name? Yuuri hasn't actually dropped the connection with us, so she should actually be hearing what we're saying.
    -[X] Give Yuuri allllll the deats about what Hijiri is telling us about her. That she's a maniac. That she's obsessed.
    --[X] We're pretty convinced that's not what's going on. Friend died, she wished over it, hates the Pleiades because of it... that sound closer to right? Certainly sounds closer to sane.
    ---[X] If she doesn't respond just start playing Navi over the line.
    [X] Make a Grief-construct lie detector. If possible, make it able to tell whether a given statement is partially true but misleading, technically true but misleading, a total lie, or withholding some information but not misleading.
    [X] Question Hijiri--nothing personal, but we need to be sure: was she coordinating with Yuuri at any point since you met her (if so, how)? Has she misled us in any way or omitted any significant information about herself, her actions, or anything regarding Yuuri?
    [X] Propose an idea to Mami: using her ribbons to extend your range, create magic-sensing constructs every 100-meters or so, covering the whole city if time permits.
    [X] Telepathy-call Yuuri, calling her her original name. Explain that she doesn't actually understand the full picture of what happened to her friend.
    [X] Annoy her into submission
    -[X] Make her go limpet on us for safety measure
    [X] Continue operating with the same goals and build off them.
    [X] Hijiri
    - [X] Apologize to Hijiri for making a mess of things with Yuuri. Offer her a cleanse and to block off Yuuri, if she needs it.
    - [X] Talk to Hijiri about what she did, and whether she could do better.
    - [X] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri said, all the way back then, that convinced her about the "truth".
    [X] Anri
    -[X] Airi: Call her by her real name.
    - [X] Tell her you'd like to hear her side of things. Half the people you're in contact don't even know her name. Even you're better informed than they are.
    [X] Hunting, once back at the museum:
    -[X] Group brainstorm searching methods.
    --[X] Grief sensors (others should copy this); Ribbon Grid; Sayaklone Army; combos thereof.
    --[X] Encourage others to propose ideas.
    --[X] Ask Hijiri if she's willing to help find Yuuri.
    --[X] Anri likes to spy and set up traps. Can we draw her out and counter ambush her?
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Vebyast said:
[x] Block Hijiri's telepathy using the memory device. It should work through the wall of the MOF. Ask first if appropriate.
[x] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri was screaming at her about there.
[x] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri said, all the way back then, that convinced her about the "truth".

[x] Ask Yuuri what she even wants. All you know is that she is, quote, "deranged". What did the Pleiades do to piss her off?

[x] Try to get Yuuri's phone number.

Sorry for being AFK the last couple days, I've been super focused on work. Will try to get some time tonight. I will say that I'm not happy with my vote and... not too happy with any of the others either. I feel like we're missing something here.
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Please don't just unilaterally block her telepathy. It's going to feed into Hijiri's agency issues badly. Honestly, I think apologizing for the situation we put her in is appropriate and useful here. (thoughts on that below)

[X] Continue operating with the same goals and build off them.

[X] Hijiri
- [X] Apologize to Hijiri for making a mess of things with Yuuri. Offer her a cleanse and to block off Yuuri, if she needs it.
- [X] Talk to Hijiri about what she did, and whether she could do better.
- [X] Ask Hijiri what Yuuri said, all the way back then, that convinced her about the "truth".

[X] Anri
-[X] Airi: Call her by her real name.
- [X] Tell her you'd like to hear her side of things. Half the people you're in contact don't even know her name. Even you're better informed than they are.

[X] Hunting, once back at the museum:
-[X] Group brainstorm searching methods.
--[X] Grief sensors (others should copy this); Ribbon Grid; Sayaklone Army; combos thereof.
--[X] Encourage others to propose ideas.
--[X] Ask Hijiri if she's willing to help find Yuuri.
--[X] Anri likes to spy and set up traps. Can we draw her out and counter ambush her?

Notes:
The apology here exists because we did kinda fuck up, to give Hijiri some amount of say, and because I'd like to see if she responds well to someone trying to do better by her in this way. (Not just telling her "it's for in your interests", or gaining compliance but actively putting effort into treating her like a person.)

Stole points from Veb and Onmur. on how to address Hijiri

I'm on the fence about trying to give Hijiri a say in other ways.

I still really want to talk to Hijiri about us. Honestly, I'm starting debate the merits of asking Sayaka to note we were found in alley at an appropriate moment.

Not doing the full thing Onmur is because bringing up Anri's loss strikes me as something that would come across as creepy at the juncture. Currently using her full name, rather than her original one, since it keeps the story straight.

Museum plans, for the moment, are basically the same as Onmur's. Definitely subject to change as I do need to put some thought into Salty's suggestion, but the social side of things should be stable until someone points stuff out.
 
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Onmur said:
Airi Anri.
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EDIT: Okay, I guess I might be a little unclear. The thing about her full name is that for all she's their sworn enemy, the Saints know nothing about her. I'm not sure how that will work out with what she thinks of them. Playing into that, I'm not fully comfortable belting out precognition and metaknowledge stuff, and doing so doesn't mesh well with us trying to get her story.

E2: It's like someone going up to you and saying, hello [time travel password] will you tell me [personal info someone with access to your time travel password would already know]. That or, Hello!, I can see the future! Now tell me what you're planning to do tomorrow!

It doesn't fit.
 
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The Phoenixian said:
- [X] Talk to Hijiri about Hijiri about what she did, and whether she could do better.
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Typo?

The Phoenixian said:
E2: It's like someone going up to you and saying, hello [time travel password] will you tell me [personal info someone with access to your time travel password would already know]
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In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to use her real name and not half of her real name and half of her assumed name?
 
Vebyast said:
The distinction is that we should phrase it less as "ask permission" and more as "make it happen, but manage the appearance to avoiding pissing her off".
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The problem with that plan is that we've seen the result of trying as we did an equivalent to that just now. Our phrasing didn't matter and she still saw us doing things without her having any power to interfere.
 
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