If anyone has trouble parsing the 1 hour freakout, here ya go. Apparently its helpful.
FYI: Early installment weirdness because I wanted to make it a pseudo fanfic then realized that I'm retreading the whole "everyone is shouting over each other problem" and stopped it.
"You know what would be funny? If Sabrina summons a Doppel and gets a clone of herself," Appletank said to himself. "We already call Doppels a Stand anyways. Would be a funny title."

He paused halfway while writing the description.

"What was Dedolere the Witch of, again?" Appletank mumbled. "Uhhh. We control grief, right? And Grief is basically Despair. Witch of Despair? I'm sure I heard that before. Probably close enough. Sounds better than just saying 'meeting Dedolere,' anyways."

[Shitty ideas
Title: This Looks like the Work of an Enemy Doppel
In which Sabrina meets the Witch of Despair]

Appletank then wanders off, never to be seen again, blissfully unaware of the screaming he would cause.

[Translator's Note: Some text and posts altered for my amusement or better understanding of topic, aka holy shit we're a fuckhueg witch]

Redshirt Army looks up at the ping. "You mean, Dedolere? Dedolere unleashed would cause pretty much the same damage as UKG anyways, who is the canonical Witch of Despair." He posts a picture of UKG for reference, then frowns at the image. "Actually, am I high or does UKG have blue eyes and white hair?"

"Of course," AuraTwilight said. "That eye is literally the Earth."

"And?" Redshirt sent back. "Earth is the Blue Marble."

"And that hair is like ... a lotta colors. Though. Um."

A sense of creeping realization shoots up the pair of poster's spines.

"Sabrina?" Aura called. "Can you, uh, take a look at this?"

[Translator's Notes: Sabrina is Godwinson]

Sabrina pops in, blinking. "Hmm?"

"UKG has blue eyes and white hair," Aura said. "UM."

Sabrina stares blankly for a moment. "Are ... are we Gretchen?

"The Witch of Despair, everybody," Redshirt sighs.

"UKG technically isn't Gretchen," Aura points out. "It represents all Witches ever."

Sabrina gasped, remembering what we found out about Madoka's wish. "EVERYTHING could be fixed. Including witches. Including her own witch."

Redshirt said. "Holy Shit."

"PMAS!Sabrina being the redemptive personification of all witches is ... um," Aura paused. "Oh fuck."

"Madoka wouldn't have to worry about a thing," Sabrina realized.

"It's like the Walpurgis theory but answers MORE questions."

PMAS!Sabrina: "You don't understand. I have to help EVERY Magical Girl. I ... I have to..."

Aura continued, "The metaknowledge is just personal memory. FUCK. We're UKG holy balls. Even the WINGS get explained: we're an actual divinity"

"Except," Sabrina asked. "Why are we European then?"

Shoryusatsu999 popped in. "Best thing I figured is the theory that either Europe created the witch as we know it or the first magical girls (and thus first witches) were in Europe.

"Or," Redshirt added, "WPN was the 'nucleus', being the largest witch conglomerate in Madoka's sight when she wished. Other than Homulilly."

"Wally was THERE when Madokami ascended," Aura said.

"Homulilly becoming Homura was the immediate result of Madoka's wish," Sabrina said.

[Translator's note: At this point everyone agreed that this was no longer a fanwork and changed rooms.]

"Ahem," Aura ahem'd. "YO EVERYBODY SABRINA IS ULTIMATE GRETCHEN RED ALERT"

[Translator's Note: New people come in and proceed to have similar freakouts]

"No wonder Dedolere is 'on the level' of UKG if she is UKG Round 2. "The Witch of Despair ... Dedolere. It makes perfect sense. The witch that has all the grief in the universe."

"We wished to control all grief because ... it's supposed to be."

[Translator's Note: They have another freakout about Firn, that goddamn precog asshole. I give up on making this a pseudo fanfic because it's retreading old ground]

QB said: "Your potential is strange." No shit we have all the negative karma. Which is why Sayaka can't copy it. And our range is so small compared to everyone else is because, like the Wraith-verse when witches were suddenly removed, the universe went apeshit trying to contain us.

Why can Madokami meddle in this timeline? Normally she's fighting UKG ... but what if ... there was no more UKG? She befriended UKG?

The entire reason Madokami isn't there is because of UKG. Without it Madokami and Madoka can co-exist, no reason for being split.

[Translator's Note: It was decided that shits would be shat if we tried summoning a Doppel and got the galaxy sized face of UKG staring at us]

People discuss how to falsify this.

Homura's shield in Wraith arc could go to past timelines she visited, but UKG was eating them. Unless WE'RE UKG HAHAHA

It was discussed that Feathers seemed to act like Homucifer, until it was brought up that instead of that, it was Homulily.

Madoka wished a few minutes slower due to the noted change from canon that we aren't 100% sure on details, and saw Homura witch out. Her fix everything wish let Homura loop, but part of Homulily was left behind. Destroy all witches wouldn't help a witched out Homura.

But our Homura is still partly Homulily, with suppressed or missing memories. Which is why we need to be somewhat careful about infobombs due to risk of relapse.

One theory was that Homulilly is trying to oppose Madoka's wish, creating an interesting parallel of [Homura vs Madoka] and [Feathers vs Sabrina.]

Homulilly in this scenario is lashing out, because it is the Homura that has given up hope of saving Madoka. Her time loop was a bad idea, she could never save Madoka, everything will happen the same way it did the first time around. Moved Sayaka around. Oriko blinded since Oriko wasn't supposed to be here. End the tragedy the way it should have from the beginning.

"Just STOP IT, I already gave up, STOP wasting my time stop making her go through this STOP THIS."

Which is why Madoka would be dead from Feathers attacking. Because they should've died that day.

Vs Walpurgis.
It was stated that Walpurgis by itself would be an easy fight. But with FeathersHomulily active, trying to cancel Madoka's wish, might be boosting Walpurgis. So now we might have to worry about a TimeStop Wallmart Night.

Walpurgisnacht's "This is how the story goes"
+
Homulilly's "This is what should have happened."

Time's so far when Feathers appears: Our barrier or in Timestop
Aka UKG's reality or Homura's reality

In the omake written by Firn, about the one where we lived till the heat death of the universe and then rebooted stars, Madokami appeared to Sabrina. We were the only meguca who didn't, maybe couldn't go with her. The symbolism is that the reason she couldn't was because

"It's symbolic resonance. Firn literally teased us with a quasi-canon omake that establishes A) Madokami can exist without being wished into being, and B) Sabrina (in that timeline at least) is an entity that can only exist separate from her."

[Translator's Note: It is established that Firn is a precog hoebag piece of shit]

Firn then asks for clarification on a line in the show, on how it would be child's play for Madoka to dewitch Sayaka. This increases the likelihood that Madokami would have the power to dewitch Homura, dewitch us.

And maybe shot us in the chest first, leaving us coughing blood in an alley.

Regarding the themes, it is likely that Clear Seeds are possibly the furthest we can get by ourselves, due to us having a thing with taking control, and turning a Clear Seed into a Soul Gem requires some measure of "letting go"

Our wish was to not just "Control grief," but more "Control grief," a subset of the wish that made us to "Fix everything."

Grief not under our control is said to feel icky.

In Conclusion: Our theory now is that Homura witched out, Madoka wished to fix everything. This dewitched Homura, Madoka....became Madokami, and then de-meguca'd UKG. Homulilly is a karmic phantom resisting the change, a backlash in the face of Madoka's wish possibly due to how Homura wished specifically to save Madoka.
Still no real way of testing unless we can summon a Doppel. But that is for another Omake, for someone else to write.
 
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I'm not sure what the right way to phrase that is.

Neither am I, hence my phrasing it as "Hijiri not being the way Niko wants." Very broad.

  • Add some concrete examples of things that would be "really not okay".
  • Add a clause for if it looks like the conversation is going nowhere.

First point is strong; second point I think is irrelevant. I just can't imagine that happening... and being a short update it'll terminate about the time that'd become apparent anyway? Probably.

Also not certain about the relevance of Mary Shelley and Umika, but I suppose it's neutral drain bamage. Probably won't help or hurt us, although it's still fluff.

Thinking about this more I think you're right to a degree. Talking about that should be held off on until Niko goes ahead and confirms it for us, probably? I like that option.

[X] Stand your ground, observe.
-[X] Calmly, out loud but quiet: Saki is not aware of the full context here. Certainly Niko can "handle herself," but Niko and Hijiri misunderstand each other in a way that makes this volatile and toxic. You're not leaving until you're certain that Hijiri isn't going to end up in a grief spiral.
[X] Short update; break at any point where Niko says or does something really not okay to Hijiri (or potentially vice versa) -- crying, threats, Niko ordering Hijiri to do something, etc are all really not okay.
 
If anyone has trouble parsing the 1 hour freakout, here ya go. Apparently its helpful.
FYI: Early installment weirdness because I wanted to make it a pseudo fanfic then realized that I'm retreading the whole "everyone is shouting over each other problem" and stopped it.
"You know what would be funny? If Sabrina summons a Doppel and gets a clone of herself," Appletank said to himself. "We already call Doppels a Stand anyways. Would be a funny title."

He paused halfway while writing the description.

"What was Dedolere the Witch of, again?" Appletank mumbled. "Uhhh. We control grief, right? And Grief is basically Despair. Witch of Despair? I'm sure I heard that before. Probably close enough. Sounds better than just saying 'meeting Dedolere,' anyways."

[Shitty ideas

Title: This Looks like the Work of an Enemy Doppel

In which Sabrina meets the Witch of Despair]

Appletank then wanders off, never to be seen again, blissfully unaware of the screaming he would cause.

[Translator's Note: Some text and posts altered for my amusement or better understanding of topic, aka holy shit we're a fuckhueg witch]

Redshirt Army looks up at the ping. "You mean, Dedolere? Dedolere unleashed would cause pretty much the same damage as UKG anyways, who is the canonical Witch of Despair." He posts a picture of UKG for reference, then frowns at the image. "Actually, am I high or does UKG have blue eyes and white hair?"

"Of course," AuraTwilight said. "That eye is literally the Earth."

"And?" Redshirt sent back. "Earth is the Blue Marble."

"And that hair is like ... a lotta colors. Though. Um."

A sense of creeping realization shoots up the pair of poster's spines.

"Sabrina?" Aura called. "Can you, uh, take a look at this?"

[Translator's Notes: Sabrina is Godwinson]

Sabrina pops in, blinking. "Hmm?"

"UKG has blue eyes and white hair," Aura said. "UM."

Sabrina stares blankly for a moment. "Are ... are we Gretchen?

"The Witch of Despair, everybody," Redshirt sighs.

"UKG technically isn't Gretchen," Aura points out. "It represents all Witches ever."

Sabrina gasped, remembering what we found out about Madoka's wish. "EVERYTHING could be fixed. Including witches. Including her own witch."

Redshirt said. "Holy Shit."

"PMAS!Sabrina being the redemptive personification of all witches is ... um," Aura paused. "Oh fuck."

"Madoka wouldn't have to worry about a thing," Sabrina realized.

"It's like the Walpurgis theory but answers MORE questions."

PMAS!Sabrina: "You don't understand. I have to help EVERY Magical Girl. I ... I have to..."

Aura continued, "The metaknowledge is just personal memory. FUCK. We're UKG holy balls. Even the WINGS get explained: we're an actual divinity"

"Except, "Sabrina asked. "Why are we European then?"

Shoryusatsu999 popped in. "Best thing I figured is the the theory that either Europe created the witch as we know it or the first magical girls (and thus first witches) were in Europe.

"Or," Redshirt added, "WPN was the 'nucleus', being the largest witch conglomerate in Madoka's sight when she wished. (other than Homulilly)"

"Wally was THERE when Madokami ascended," Aura said.

"Homulilly becoming Homura was the immediate result of Madoka's wish," Sabrina said.

[Translator's note: At this point everyone agreed that this was no longer a fanwork and changed rooms.]

"Ahem," Aura ahem'd. "YO EVERYBODY SABRINA IS ULTIMATE GRETCHEN RED ALERT"

[Translator's Note: New people come in and proceed to have similar freakouts]

"No wonder Dedolere is 'on the level' of UKG if she is UKG Round 2. "The Witch of Despair ... Dedolere. It makes perfect sense. The witch that has all the grief in the universe."

"We wished to control all grief because ... it's supposed to be."

[Translator's Note: They have another freakout about Firn, that goddamn precog asshole. I give up on making this a pseudo fanfic because it's retreading old ground]

QB said: "Your potential is strange" No shit we have all the negative karma. Which is why Sayaka can't copy it. And our range is so small compared to everyone else is because, like the Wraith-verse when witches were suddenly removed, the universe went apeshit trying to contain us.

Why can Madokami meddle in this timeline? Normally she's fighting UKG ... but what if ... there was no more UKG? She befriended UKG?

The entire reason Madokami isn't there is because of UKG. Without it Madokami and Madoka can co-exist, no reason for being split.

[Translator's Note: It was decided that shits would be shat if we tried summoning a Doppel and got the galaxy sized face of UKG staring at us]

People discuss how to falsify this.

Homura's shield in Wraith arc could go to past timelines she visited, but UKG was eating them. Unless WE'RE UKG HAHAHA

It was discussed that Feathers seemed to act like Homucifer, until it was brought up that instead of that, it was Homulily.

Madoka wished a few minutes slower due to the noted change from canon that we aren't 100% sure on details, and saw Homura witch out. Her fix everything wish let Homura loop, but part of Homulily was left behind. Destroy all witches wouldn't help a witched out Homura.

But our Homura is still partly Homulily, with suppressed or missing memories. Which is why we need to be somewhat careful about infobombs due to risk of relapse.

One theory was that Homulilly is trying to oppose Madoka's wish, creating an interesting parallel of [Homura vs Madoka] and [Feathers vs Sabrina.]

Homulilly in this scenario is lashing out, because it is the Homura that has given up hope of saving Madoka. Her time loop was a bad idea, she could never save Madoka, everything will happen the same way it did the first time around. Moved Sayaka around. Oriko blinded since Oriko wasn't supposed to be here. End the tragedy the way it should have from the beginning.

"Just STOP IT, I already gave up, STOP wasting my time stop making her go through this STOP THIS."

Which is why Madoka would be dead from Feathers attacking. Because they should've died that day.

Vs Walpurgis.

It was stated that Walpurgis by itself would be an easy fight. But with FeathersHomulily active, trying to cancel Madoka's wish, might be boosting Walpurgis. So now we might have to worry about a TimeStop Wallmart Night.

Walpurgisnacht's "This is how the story goes"
+
Homulilly's "This is what should have happened."

Time's so far when Feathers appears: Our barrier or in Timestop

Aka UKG's reality or Homura's reality

In the omake written by Firn, about the one where we lived till the heat death of the universe and then rebooted stars, Madokami appeared to Sabrina. We were the only meguca who didn't, maybe couldn't go with her. The symbolism is that the reason she couldn't was because

"It's symbolic resonance. Firn literally teased us with a quasi-canon omake that establishes A) Madokami can exist without being wished into being, and B) Sabrina (in that timeline at least) is an entity that can only exist separate from her."

[Translator's Note: It is established that Firn is a precog hoebag piece of shit]

Firn then asks for clarification on a line in the show, on how it would be child's play for Madoka to dewitch Sayaka. This increases the likelihood that Madokami would have the power to dewitch Homura, dewitch us.

And maybe shot us in the chest first, leaving us coughing blood in an alley.

Regarding the themes, it is likely that Clear Seeds are possibly the furthest we can get by ourselves, due to us having a thing with taking control, and turning a Clear Seed into a Soul Gem requires some measure of "letting go"

Our wish was to not just "Control grief," but more "Control grief," a subset of the wish that made us to "Fix everything."

Grief not under our control is said to feel icky.

In Conclusion: Our theory now is that Homura witched out, Madoka wished to fix everything. This dewitched Homura, Madoka....became Madokami, and then de-meguca'd UKG. Homulilly is a karmic phantom resisting the change, a backlash in the face of Madoka's wish possibly due to how Homura wished specifically to save Madoka.
I end your suffering, meduka
 
I maintain my assertion that this is all nonsense, until we have a better understanding of the Spookiness invoked by last loop.
 
If anyone has trouble parsing the 1 hour freakout, here ya go. Apparently its helpful.
FYI: Early installment weirdness because I wanted to make it a pseudo fanfic then realized that I'm retreading the whole "everyone is shouting over each other problem" and stopped it.
"You know what would be funny? If Sabrina summons a Doppel and gets a clone of herself," Appletank said to himself. "We already call Doppels a Stand anyways. Would be a funny title."

He paused halfway while writing the description.

"What was Dedolere the Witch of, again?" Appletank mumbled. "Uhhh. We control grief, right? And Grief is basically Despair. Witch of Despair? I'm sure I heard that before. Probably close enough. Sounds better than just saying 'meeting Dedolere,' anyways."

[Shitty ideas
Title: This Looks like the Work of an Enemy Doppel
In which Sabrina meets the Witch of Despair]

Appletank then wanders off, never to be seen again, blissfully unaware of the screaming he would cause.

[Translator's Note: Some text and posts altered for my amusement or better understanding of topic, aka holy shit we're a fuckhueg witch]

Redshirt Army looks up at the ping. "You mean, Dedolere? Dedolere unleashed would cause pretty much the same damage as UKG anyways, who is the canonical Witch of Despair." He posts a picture of UKG for reference, then frowns at the image. "Actually, am I high or does UKG have blue eyes and white hair?"

"Of course," AuraTwilight said. "That eye is literally the Earth."

"And?" Redshirt sent back. "Earth is the Blue Marble."

"And that hair is like ... a lotta colors. Though. Um."

A sense of creeping realization shoots up the pair of poster's spines.

"Sabrina?" Aura called. "Can you, uh, take a look at this?"

[Translator's Notes: Sabrina is Godwinson]

Sabrina pops in, blinking. "Hmm?"

"UKG has blue eyes and white hair," Aura said. "UM."

Sabrina stares blankly for a moment. "Are ... are we Gretchen?

"The Witch of Despair, everybody," Redshirt sighs.

"UKG technically isn't Gretchen," Aura points out. "It represents all Witches ever."

Sabrina gasped, remembering what we found out about Madoka's wish. "EVERYTHING could be fixed. Including witches. Including her own witch."

Redshirt said. "Holy Shit."

"PMAS!Sabrina being the redemptive personification of all witches is ... um," Aura paused. "Oh fuck."

"Madoka wouldn't have to worry about a thing," Sabrina realized.

"It's like the Walpurgis theory but answers MORE questions."

PMAS!Sabrina: "You don't understand. I have to help EVERY Magical Girl. I ... I have to..."

Aura continued, "The metaknowledge is just personal memory. FUCK. We're UKG holy balls. Even the WINGS get explained: we're an actual divinity"

"Except," Sabrina asked. "Why are we European then?"

Shoryusatsu999 popped in. "Best thing I figured is the theory that either Europe created the witch as we know it or the first magical girls (and thus first witches) were in Europe.

"Or," Redshirt added, "WPN was the 'nucleus', being the largest witch conglomerate in Madoka's sight when she wished. Other than Homulilly."

"Wally was THERE when Madokami ascended," Aura said.

"Homulilly becoming Homura was the immediate result of Madoka's wish," Sabrina said.

[Translator's note: At this point everyone agreed that this was no longer a fanwork and changed rooms.]

"Ahem," Aura ahem'd. "YO EVERYBODY SABRINA IS ULTIMATE GRETCHEN RED ALERT"

[Translator's Note: New people come in and proceed to have similar freakouts]

"No wonder Dedolere is 'on the level' of UKG if she is UKG Round 2. "The Witch of Despair ... Dedolere. It makes perfect sense. The witch that has all the grief in the universe."

"We wished to control all grief because ... it's supposed to be."

[Translator's Note: They have another freakout about Firn, that goddamn precog asshole. I give up on making this a pseudo fanfic because it's retreading old ground]

QB said: "Your potential is strange." No shit we have all the negative karma. Which is why Sayaka can't copy it. And our range is so small compared to everyone else is because, like the Wraith-verse when witches were suddenly removed, the universe went apeshit trying to contain us.

Why can Madokami meddle in this timeline? Normally she's fighting UKG ... but what if ... there was no more UKG? She befriended UKG?

The entire reason Madokami isn't there is because of UKG. Without it Madokami and Madoka can co-exist, no reason for being split.

[Translator's Note: It was decided that shits would be shat if we tried summoning a Doppel and got the galaxy sized face of UKG staring at us]

People discuss how to falsify this.

Homura's shield in Wraith arc could go to past timelines she visited, but UKG was eating them. Unless WE'RE UKG HAHAHA

It was discussed that Feathers seemed to act like Homucifer, until it was brought up that instead of that, it was Homulily.

Madoka wished a few minutes slower due to the noted change from canon that we aren't 100% sure on details, and saw Homura witch out. Her fix everything wish let Homura loop, but part of Homulily was left behind. Destroy all witches wouldn't help a witched out Homura.

But our Homura is still partly Homulily, with suppressed or missing memories. Which is why we need to be somewhat careful about infobombs due to risk of relapse.

One theory was that Homulilly is trying to oppose Madoka's wish, creating an interesting parallel of [Homura vs Madoka] and [Feathers vs Sabrina.]

Homulilly in this scenario is lashing out, because it is the Homura that has given up hope of saving Madoka. Her time loop was a bad idea, she could never save Madoka, everything will happen the same way it did the first time around. Moved Sayaka around. Oriko blinded since Oriko wasn't supposed to be here. End the tragedy the way it should have from the beginning.

"Just STOP IT, I already gave up, STOP wasting my time stop making her go through this STOP THIS."

Which is why Madoka would be dead from Feathers attacking. Because they should've died that day.

Vs Walpurgis.
It was stated that Walpurgis by itself would be an easy fight. But with FeathersHomulily active, trying to cancel Madoka's wish, might be boosting Walpurgis. So now we might have to worry about a TimeStop Wallmart Night.

Walpurgisnacht's "This is how the story goes"
+
Homulilly's "This is what should have happened."

Time's so far when Feathers appears: Our barrier or in Timestop
Aka UKG's reality or Homura's reality

In the omake written by Firn, about the one where we lived till the heat death of the universe and then rebooted stars, Madokami appeared to Sabrina. We were the only meguca who didn't, maybe couldn't go with her. The symbolism is that the reason she couldn't was because

"It's symbolic resonance. Firn literally teased us with a quasi-canon omake that establishes A) Madokami can exist without being wished into being, and B) Sabrina (in that timeline at least) is an entity that can only exist separate from her."

[Translator's Note: It is established that Firn is a precog hoebag piece of shit]

Firn then asks for clarification on a line in the show, on how it would be child's play for Madoka to dewitch Sayaka. This increases the likelihood that Madokami would have the power to dewitch Homura, dewitch us.

And maybe shot us in the chest first, leaving us coughing blood in an alley.

Regarding the themes, it is likely that Clear Seeds are possibly the furthest we can get by ourselves, due to us having a thing with taking control, and turning a Clear Seed into a Soul Gem requires some measure of "letting go"

Our wish was to not just "Control grief," but more "Control grief," a subset of the wish that made us to "Fix everything."

Grief not under our control is said to feel icky.

In Conclusion: Our theory now is that Homura witched out, Madoka wished to fix everything. This dewitched Homura, Madoka....became Madokami, and then de-meguca'd UKG. Homulilly is a karmic phantom resisting the change, a backlash in the face of Madoka's wish possibly due to how Homura wished specifically to save Madoka.
Still no real way of testing unless we can summon a Doppel. But that is for another Omake, for someone else to write.

This is a hilarious theory. Informative and insightful and fits together neatly, but not something verifiable. Not without consequences it seems.

Also on one hand not sure this is Firn being borderline precognitive so much as being really good at rolling with the punches and altering the story to fit new information...

But he's shown an impressive grasp on his ability to either predict his readerbase or guide them into plotlines or scenarios he wants to write. So he really might be steepling his fingers going, "Just. As. Planned."
 
Remember you're talking about the bloke/blokette that managed to write Oriko against an entire forum of dumbasses jacked-up on Bill Nye and Dr. Eggman style science, and only had to change her own plotting and steepling of fingers once.

Firn has an amazingly good grasp of this forum and if I only have to retcon the characters in Persona 5.5 62002819 times I'll be happy (well, I won't be happy if you guys push Axle off a cliff - I'm really really looking forward to his Social Link and Y'alls reaction to that bomb).
 
We could break the flow of conversation by asking about the memory device.
That's actually a good idea. Reserve that as a tactic in case we need to step in but don't have a relevant interrupt?
Neither am I, hence my phrasing it as "Hijiri not being the way Niko wants." Very broad.
The problem is that your specific wording denies Hijiri's agency again. The situation isn't that Hijiri isn't the way Niko wants. It's that Hijiri feels trapped by what Niko wants and is acting against her own best interests purely to reject the sense that Niko is controlling her.
 
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The problem is that your specific wording denies Hijiri's agency again. The situation isn't that Hijiri isn't the way Niko wants. It's that Hijiri feels trapped by what Niko wants and is acting against her own best interests purely to reject the sense that Niko is controlling her.

It's also dead and gone for now though. Deleted that section entirely, figure we should wait before doing that.

Remember you're talking about the bloke/blokette that managed to write Oriko against an entire forum of dumbasses jacked-up on Bill Nye and Dr. Eggman style science, and only had to change her own plotting and steepling of fingers once.

Firn has an amazingly good grasp of this forum and if I only have to retcon the characters in Persona 5.5 62002819 times I'll be happy (well, I won't be happy if you guys push Axle off a cliff - I'm really really looking forward to his Social Link and Y'alls reaction to that bomb).

See this is long and pointless and rambling. Let me write a TL;DR of this with your own words.


See? Much better, nyan~
 
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I tend to be busy quite a bit these days, and check the thread in between work, so I miss and/or forget details of plans. A bit of intent explicitly in votes would be good "get this done quickly so that we have time before the Saints arrive", for example, would be good in future, but I'll try and do better, as well.
Word limits mean we have to trade off between that and actions, though.
 
I actually don't know about that - Umika might have a better time intervening because Niko knows her better. Though I guess she's also not here right now, so that's not too useful.

I think Umika is a strong bet here, but I also think we'll be able to paint things more reasonably, effectively, & accurately for her after next update. And with less chance of fucking up somehow.
 
I think Umika is a strong bet here, but I also think we'll be able to paint things more reasonably, effectively, & accurately for her after next update. And with less chance of fucking up somehow.
Should we get Umika headed this way, so she's not breaking in by telepathy? Or do we think we don't have enough time?
I'd be tempted to simply reply "Obviously not", pointing at the slap as unacceptable behavior and evidence she is not in a proper state of mind to be having this discussion.
That's... kind of what I'm feeling. People keep saying things like "They're speaking their minds, how nice!" but that's not what's happening here! Niko is attacking Hijiri, Hijiri is defying Niko, every thing they say is just setting the other harder into their position. Think about that interrogation thing that I posted for the last update - the very first thing that Niko did when she arrived as to make this a fight, and now Hijiri is opposing her because they're fighting.

And that's why I think we need something for "If the discussion is going nowhere". Conditioning on "If someone does something unacceptable" is already too late. The unacceptable things are the things you can't take back. And that's assuming that it ever reaches the level of something unacceptable happening instead of just drifting along until one of them says "I will never". And if one of them says that we're done.
 
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Should we get Umika headed this way, so she's not breaking in by telepathy? Or do we think we don't have enough time?

I think it's pointless given that she'll ask for an explanation if we ask her to come over. I'd much rather ask Oriko if anyone; she probably has a higher social score than Mami if she puts her mind to it, and she definitely has a better understanding of Guca. (cough cough hairball fucking precog cough cough)
 
I'm half tempted to say one of our lines to Niko should be "What the hell was that? This isn't an anime, you can't just slap bad feelings out of someone."

Mostly for the irony of saying this isn't an anime.
 
I'm half tempted to say one of our lines to Niko should be "What the hell was that? This isn't an anime, you can't just slap bad feelings out of someone."

Mostly for the irony of saying this isn't an anime.

That just makes me think, "This is an anime setting, surely someone can slap the bad feelings out of someone."

And then I realized that someone is Sabrina. She just doesn't need the slap.
 
One thing to note is that in canon, when Kyuubey (shown as Jyuubey in the memories due to the memory effect) explains Niko's wish to Kanna, Kanna's first immediate response was "why didn't she just erase her own memories then?" As Kyuubey mentions that Niko didn't want to escape from what she did, that drives Kanna over the edge. From Kanna's perspective, her existence is not just a way for Niko to live her life through Kanna, but it's a roundabout self-punishing way that Kanna thinks is completely absurd. In a way, she's kind of right. The situation that Niko put herself in is borderline masochistic, where she pretty much sacrificed her family, any normal friends she could have had, and any possible life she could have had just so she could create and watch over a 'what-if' version of herself.

Honestly, Kanna is actually in the right in her argument against Niko, and saying "She wanted good life for you" or "I'm an artificial being too" isn't going to make her situation with her any better. There's not going to be an 'instant-fix' solution between the two.
 
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[X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now, it's the person she's treating like a thing."
[X] Intervene.

Sorry, but what the fuck is wrong with you guys, just going "Oh, it's fine, she can beat on her metaphorical daughter as long as it's not too bad, because we like Niko"? Fucking seriously?
 
One thing to note is that in canon, when Kyuubey (shown as Jyuubey in the memories due to the memory effect) explains Niko's wish to Kanna, Kanna's first immediate response was "why didn't she just erase her own memories then?" As Kyuubey mentions that Niko didn't want to escape from what she did, that drives Kanna over the edge. From Kanna's perspective, her existence is not just a way for Niko to live her life through Kanna, but it's a roundabout self-punishing way that Kanna thinks is completely absurd. In a way, she's kind of right. The situation that Niko put herself in is borderline masochistic, where she pretty much sacrificed her family, any normal friends she could have had, and any possible life she could have had just so she could create and watch over a 'what-if' version of herself.

Honestly, Kanna is actually in the right in her argument against Niko, and saying "She wanted good life for you" or "I'm an artificial being too" isn't going to make her situation with her any better. There's not going to be an 'instant-fix' solution between the two.
Yes, the fact, Niko is a little shit towards Hijiri. :p
 
[X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now, it's the person she's treating like a thing."
[X] Intervene.

Sorry, but what the fuck is wrong with you guys, just going "Oh, it's fine, she can beat on her metaphorical daughter as long as it's not too bad, because we like Niko"? Fucking seriously?

Excuse me, no.

I will not take that. I wrote an essay on this and you seem to have not read it.

Niko marches straight forward, and before you can shout a warning, slaps Hijiri across the face. The smack rings out across the roof, the force of the blow sending Hijiri spinning to the ground.

"You idiot," Niko snarls. "You were supposed to live happy and not... this!"

"What was I supposed to do?" Hijiri snarls right back. She doesn't stand, balanced in a crouch with one hand on the roof and one touching her reddened cheek. "What was I supposed to do when I found out I was just some- some fake? Am I just your doll to live through?"

"No!" Niko snaps. "You were supposed to live like I never could!"


"Shoot down the fake person idea." Well, what did Niko just start doing?

"What was I supposed to do?" Hijiri snarls right back. She doesn't stand, balanced in a crouch with one hand on the roof and one touching her reddened cheek. "What was I supposed to do when I found out I was just some- some fake? Am I just your doll to live through?"

"No!" Niko snaps. "You were supposed to live like I never could!"

I will agree with you on one point: I need to make a note that Niko getting physical a second time is also unacceptable. But you are reacting in exactly the same way as everyone else initially did, relying on the context we think we have instead of the conversation we've seen happen so far. Niko has said nothing unreasonable so far. Read the post.

[X] Stand your ground, observe.
-[X] Calmly, out loud but quiet: Saki is not aware of the full context here. Certainly Niko can "handle herself," but Niko and Hijiri misunderstand each other in a way that makes this volatile and toxic. You're not leaving until you're certain that Hijiri isn't going to end up in a grief spiral.
[X] Short update; break at any point where Niko says or does something really not okay to Hijiri (or potentially vice versa) -- crying, threats, Niko ordering Hijiri to do something, Niko getting physical again, etc are all really not okay.
 
Niko has said nothing unreasonable so far. Read the post.
Niko is telling her daughter how she's supposed to live her life and punching her in the face when she does it wrong. How do you think that that's acceptable? How the fuck do you think that this is going to lead to Hijiri listening to anything Niko says? I don't care if there's an interpretation where Niko's logic is not unacceptable, everything else she's doing is abuse and her arguments are the worst kind of worthless!

Put yourself in Hijiri's shoes. Are you going to fucking listen to Niko? Or are you going to continue doing exactly what you've been doing in response to an apparently-abusive parent figure?

And the rest of you! How do you see this going? Pay no attention to whether it's "not unreasonable". Look at the fucking people here and what they're going to do.
 
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