Also, how does voting multiple times work? I'm really new to actually participating in quests instead of reading them as a lurker without an account. Will my vote change if I switch to a different plan? And if the plan I voted for changes down the line, does my vote still count? Cause after the changes that have been made,

[X] The Phoenixian

Voting with a new vote replaces your old vote. You don't need to go back and delete the old one or anything. If you vote for a person ( [] The Phoenixian), your vote will change if they change what they are voting for. You're effectively delegating your vote to that person. If you vote for a specific thing ( [] Hug Mami) or plan ( [] Plan All the Hugs), your vote will stay the same, though if you voted for a plan, and the details change, you are still voting for that plan (as long as its name didn't change).

That said...
[X] The Phoenixian
 
Last edited:
For one thing, Haruka is an adult dealing with a group of children - putting such a major piece of information in her hands, she's going to consider what happens to the information her responsibility.
Yes? We do the same thing. The trick is to establish to her that she is not the only responsible person here. Which we have to do anyway! This entire parents thing will be a catastrophe if they don't believe that we are sufficiently responsible. Our metaknowledge alone guarantees that there will be situations in which they need to trust us to know what we're doing. Why do you think I've been hammering so hard on image?

So assume that we have sufficient standing that they will, if not follow our lead outright, at least consider us to be a subject matter expert whose perspective must be respected. We don't "cede control" of any information we give them any more than we cede control of information that we give to, say, Homura.
And clearly, she doesn't have the most accurate view of what meguca life is like, so there's the risk that she's just distant enough from the issue to not see it as quite as big a deal as it really should be.
We are correcting this problem in the upcoming update. Furthermore, I expect us to spend significant effort on impressing upon her the importance of meguca mental health, with a special interest toward emphasizing that it is something that she can help with. And you think that, after we specifically ask her to assist us with keeping magical girls stable, she's going to think that it's reasonable to drop a big damn load of trauma on them, and to do so without consulting us and without us stopping her?

Summary: If she's as dangerously incompetent as you say, there is no way she can work with us and we should be treating her as a HUMINT asset to be handled rather than as a person to be recruited.
'm all for having an actual discussion about whether we should reveal bombs to people, but there needs to be an actual reason before we start considering it. We haven't even decided Mami, Hitomi, Sayaka, or Madoka need to know it yet - why does Haruka?
I just provided several reasons that I believe are compelling. The single biggest reason is that I do not want her to figure it out on her own. One of the greatest limiters when doing brainstorming or research is the difficulty of reexamining earlier conclusions in light of new information. Adding a new perspective to the conversation, one with none of the preconceived notions that'd lead them down the same old paths and make it difficult to find new ideas, can be a massive boost to a brainstorming session or a research effort. That's what we're doing here and the effects will be the same. Haruka will be learning about magical girls from square one, as a psychologically stable mature adult, and we should expect her to have some new and unusual insights as she approaches the problem from an entirely different direction.
So I just got internet back and haven't read the discussion that happened since I signed off, but here's two points:

[ ] Telepathically ask Hitomi to excuse herself and come here. It, uh, turns out her mom already knows something about magical girls from her (misspent?) youth.

We need to keep Hitomi in the loop here. If her mom was in full panic mode, it'd be different, but with the situation currently de-escalated, going over her head may cause resentment.

[ ] Ask Haruka if her husband knows about magic.
-[ ] Sub-point: Ask if, since you're going to be explaining the system in detail, she'd prefer to wait until her husband can be here so you don't repeat yourself.

Let's not poke at leaving the person she, uh, married, out of the loop.
Good point.

[x] Thank Haruka for breaking the ice.
[x] Give Mami an opening in case she wants to leave. Homework would work.
[x] Ask Haruka if she wants her family in here for the explanation.

[x] Explain the magical girl system.
[x] Explain your plans for fixing it and keeping everyone safe.
[x] Acquire recruits.
 
Last edited:
Also, how does voting multiple times work? I'm really new to actually participating in quests instead of reading them as a lurker without an account. Will my vote change if I switch to a different plan?
It'll count only your most recent vote. If you vote for someone else, it'll count their most recent vote, even if it was after yours.

If you click "Thread Tools" near the top of the page, you can use the tally tool yourself to see where things stand.

I'm sorry, but why in the world would we want to tell her about the witchbomb?
No reason that I can see. This is information that Sabrina isn't even willing to share with her girlfriend and closest friends. Seems ridiculous to suggest that she's going to tell it to somebody she just met.

The single biggest reason is that I do not want her to figure it out on her own.
The likelihood of her finding out on her own seem vanishingly small, especially compared to the likelihood of any of our other friends finding out. She's not a magical girl, she's not related to a magical girl, she doesn't interact with magical girls on a daily basis, and she can't interact with Kyubey. Basically none of the witchbomb vectors that Mami, Kyouko, Sayaka, Madoka, Nadia, the Pleiades, Yuma and even Hitomi are exposed to every day apply to her. She is the least likely person of anyone we know to learn the witchbomb, save perhaps Uncle Shin and the truant officer.

If we haven't felt the need to tell any of them, then what need is there to tell her?

The more people who know something, the more likely it is to be found out. We only just met her, and we have no idea how reliable she is. Telling her only increases the likelihood of it spreading to Hitomi, then Madoka, Sayaka and eventually Mami.
 
The likelihood of her finding out on her own seem vanishingly small, especially compared to the likelihood of any of our other friends finding out. She's not a magical girl, she's not related to a magical girl, she doesn't interact with magical girls on a daily basis, and she can't interact with Kyubey. Basically none of the witchbomb vectors that Mami, Kyouko, Sayaka, Madoka, Nadia, the Pleiades, Yuma and even Hitomi are exposed to every day apply to her. She is the least likely person of anyone we know to learn the witchbomb, save perhaps Uncle Shin and the truant officer.
I just explained why she is currently the single person we know most likely to figure out the witchbomb. I believe it is a sufficiently large risk that I would really prefer Mami not be present when she starts asking questions. She will continue to grill Hitomi after we leave to flesh out our explanation and I would not surprised if she figures it out in the next few days.
If we haven't felt the need to tell any of them, then what need is there to tell her?
I just explained why we might want to tell her.
 
Last edited:
No reason that I can see. This is information that Sabrina isn't even willing to share with her girlfriend and closest friends. Seems ridiculous to suggest that she's going to tell it to somebody she just met.

Sabrina isn't willing to share it with Mami and company because it would necessarily endanger them. Telling Haruka would not endanger her. Haruka might spill the information, revealing it to people who would be hurt by it -- but it's still already safer to tell Haruka than it is to tell, say, Sayaka.

Sabrina is keeping the witchbomb from her girlfriend and closes friends because she cares about them, not because she has any particular hangup against revealing the witchbomb. This is an issue of literal infohazards, not deep and personal secrets.

The likelihood of her finding out on her own seem vanishingly small, especially compared to the likelihood of any of our other friends finding out. She's not a magical girl, she's not related to a magical girl, she doesn't interact with magical girls on a daily basis, and she can't interact with Kyubey. Basically none of the witchbomb vectors that Mami, Kyouko, Sayaka, Madoka, Nadia, the Pleiades, Yuma and even Hitomi are exposed to every day apply to her. She is the least likely person of anyone we know to learn the witchbomb, save perhaps Uncle Shin and the truant officer.

...weren't we explicitly planning on bringing her into the loop already? Weren't we looking for a sensible adult who could help us? Or am I imagining things?

It's not trivial to have it both ways; it's not trivial to bring her in part of the way and then leave her hanging before she figures out any infohazards. If we bring her in only part of the way, she might be willing to take us at face value, without asking any dangerous questions... or she might cross-examine us and pull out all of the details anyways.
 

Oh, no, that's not what I meant my point to be. Sorry, you're totally right, I didn't mean to say we shouldn't tell Haruka in a general sense. All that reasoning is fairly clear. We should definitely explain the witchbomb to Haruka, and anyone else who will be working with us (like Madoka and Hitomi and all the parents), and in fact, we should tell it to every magical girl we think it safe to. Eventually. I just mean that it's not a good idea to tell her about it now.

She started this conversation presumably for some reason, and that would be taking the conversation way off track for reasons that are only going to worry her and cause problems in the immediate future. Once we bring in parents in general we can have a long "what QB won't tell magical girls and what you should do about it" conversation with all of them (and frankly, if we're at that point, we should start including Madoka and Hitomi, as they aren't in danger from the bombs) where all the distressing things get explained and any dangerous infohazards are warned about. This is not that conversation. We are not prepared for it, Mami is in the room and it's going to be difficult to get her out without seeming like we're dismissing her or giving her too much information, it's kind of stomping over whatever reason Haruka brought us aside to ask about magical girls for, and she will need time to digest the darker parts of meguca life anyway. Telling her during this conversation is just being incredibly careless with the information.
 
That's why I suggested we use homework as a way to tactfully get Mami out of the room - and if she doesn't care about her homework, we can have her go break the news to Hitomi for the same purpose. We only need a few seconds to tell Haruka that Mami's willfully uniformed about a literal memetic hazard, and if we could speak to her later about it we'd appreciate it. Or just to witchbomb her completely, whichever works.

[X] Vebyast

If Haruka has specific questions and a direction she wants to see the conversation go, I'm sure she'll tell Sabrina and Sabrina will answer for us. Honestly, given her "body language" that we've been privvy to, I suspect nostalgia made up a good chunk of the reason she wanted to talk to us - she's been sitting on the secret that magic is real without proof for a long time, so naturally she'd like to get in contact with the "interesting" side of the world again. Concern for Hitomi is also likely, but it's easily deflected by Hitomi not being a potential. Any harm she comes to has the necessary requirements of a girl sadistic enough to attack non-combatants managing to get through four total badasses, so Hitomi's in almost less danger than she normally would, since she can telepathy us to tell us if she's getting mugged or whatever.

Once we tell Haruka the problems with Magical Girl life, she'll probably ask about her friend. If she does, I think honesty might be the best policy: we haven't heard of her, but a magical girl her age would be a statistical anomaly. But that I'll leave up to Sabrina, because I'm not sure and it's not guaranteed to happen.
 
I just explained why she is currently the single person we know most likely to figure out the witchbomb.
Your "explanation" is absurd and makes no logical sense, on par with your earlier conclusion that the common phrase "I was a teenager once, too" implies a tragic loss.

Is there even a single instance in canon of someone just deducing the witchbomb from commonly-known facts, rather than being told or witnessing it? All of the information that we'd be sharing with her is information that other magical girls have known for years without ever realizing the witchbomb. Even Nadia, who trades in information for a living, isn't aware of it. What reason is there to believe that Haruka, when presented with that same information, is going to immediately make some sort of huge intuitive leap to "magical girls become witches"? Sherlock Holmes couldn't make that deduction with the facts provided.

It's not trivial to have it both ways; it's not trivial to bring her in part of the way and then leave her hanging before she figures out any infohazards.
Isn't that what we're already doing with literally everyone we know except Oriko? We're keeping the potentialbomb from Homura, we're keeping the witchbomb and loopbomb from everyone else. Why is it possible with someone we spend time with constantly, but not someone that we'll only see occasionally?
 
Is there even a single instance in canon of someone just deducing the witchbomb from commonly-known facts, rather than being told or witnessing it? All of the information that we'd be sharing with her is information that other magical girls have known for years without ever realizing the witchbomb. Even Nadia, who trades in information for a living, isn't aware of it. What reason is there to believe that Haruka, when presented with that same information, is going to immediately make some sort of huge intuitive leap to "magical girls become witches"? Sherlock Holmes couldn't make that deduction with the facts provided.

I see people make that deduction [that magical girls are witches] all of the fucking time in real life. E.g. my brother guessed himself on a blind watch-through of the anime.

The fact that people don't figure it out without being told -- in universe -- presumably has some justification for it. Maybe Kyubey passively mindfucks people, maybe Kyubey selects for potential meguca who aren't likely to guess the truth. Maybe these people just have a different cultural perspective than we do, or maybe they're not using the cognitive tools they would need to figure it out (they're probably not using narrative logic to analyze their day-to-day lives).

But the fact that the witchbomb is kept secret at all looks a whole lot like a genre conceit more than anything else, and I don't want to hang anything important on it.

Even Nadia, who trades in information for a living, isn't aware of it.

Please, can you give me a citation on this one? AFAIK when we talked to Nadia, we only mentioned the lichbomb tangentially (to explain why we hated Kyubey and didn't want him in on our meeting). Then she brushed over it and moved on to brighter topics, and we never dug in any deeper than that about her knowledge of the 'bombs.
 
Discord sleep deprived shenanigans

If you can't see Homura you might be moments away from death.
Witches have barriers to keep her out
Homura has only two moving speeds: walking, and faster than light
Homura has already killed you, you just don't know it yet.
Homura can stop time, because Time is scared to tell Homura no. Her actual magic is her Hair
Its bigger on the inside.
She has yet to find meguca that can outsmart bullet
A bad gif of her hair being flipped still made L'Oreal millions.

"I don't always hug Mami, but w- who am I kidding, I do"
hugs Mami
Sabrina gives Grief hope.
She brings a knife to a gunfight to even the odds
She gives hugs since words fail to convey her thoughts
Sabrina set up a date to introduce her parents to each other for the first time.
She can speak French...in German."
"She once warned a precog."
She gave the Incubator a contract
She completed a quest in hard difficulty in one try, whereas all other previous players couldn't beat it in more than a hundred
Walpurgisnacht lets Sabrina organize for her
She considers herself to be inadequate at social gatherings. She also is responsible for 95% of good relationships formed between previously enemy magical girls
Meguca used to not wear pants. Then there was Sabrina.
Her Brain Damage only makes her stronger
It is said the more she hurts you, the better a friend you become with her
Once a mind reader scanned her, after 5 days of excruciating pain, the mind reader got hugs
Sabrina's hair is the same color as Madokami's dress
Sabrina uses the power of eldritch abominations to make girls smile.
Sabrina's brain is so multi-faceted it can ship parts of itself with each other
Sabrina has her own theme music. She also has everyone else's theme music.
She doesn't always drink, but when she does, Sabrina drinks microwaved tea. Believe in justice, my friends.
 
This is dumb. It's not relying on Kyubey, it's utilizing him. If he refuses to answer, that's fine. Then we ask Nadia. But asking Kyubey is both more reliable and faster.

Like, you don't need to rely on someone to get use out of him.


I think you're making the mistake of thinking that Kyubey is sadistic or intentionally cruel. At worst, Kyubey is uncaring.

Don't get me wrong, I have many problems with the Incubators. But treating them as hostile is not only a mistake in terms of lost opportunities, it's also stupid. We currently have no means whatsoever of actually fighting them. We can't even yet offer an alternative to dealing with Witches, compared to contracting new MGs on a global scale. Maintaining a relatively cordial and business-like relationship with Kyubey is a good thing, because, for the time being, we're stuck with him, and he could make our lives extremely difficult if he wanted to.

If, on the other hand, we can show some potential for being useful for Kyubey's goals (not counting his goal of getting Madoka to contract and Witch out), he's likely to be a lot more helpful going forward, and that is very useful, even if we plan on stabbing him in the back at some point down the line.


That makes no sense and is all kinds of backwards. Asking Kyubey (via telepathy) is faster and easier, and much more likely to give us a definitive answer. If he doesn't give us a definitive answer, then we can ask Nadia.

The only time Kyubey has shown himself to Mami since we revealed the truth to her is when we were meeting with Nadia as a group, and he was specifically there to definitively confirm Sabrina's abilities to Nadia.
Salty, whether one likes it or not, there's a direct relationship between using something and relying on that something nobody can escape.

You've argued to work with Kyuubey many times, and it still doesn't sound any more a good idea. You seem to ignore the kind of character Kyuubey is, how it operates against Magical Girls. You're proposing giving Kyuubey every single tool it uses to manipulate and kill Magical Girls.

I don't want Sabrina to be amongst the bajillon Magical Girls who thought 'oh well, no harm letting KB hang around' (pointedly looks at Homura) and ended up with a metaphorical knife in the back.

Furthermore, don't omit the time Kyuubey showed up at Oriko home, we repeatedly asked it and tried to force it to leave, only for it to stick around making a fool of us, traumatizing Mami further, and only leaving when it felt like it, stomping the fact it was the one in control all over us and Mami's psyche.


So I just got internet back and haven't read the discussion that happened since I signed off, but here's two points:

[ ] Telepathically ask Hitomi to excuse herself and come here. It, uh, turns out her mom already knows something about magical girls from her (misspent?) youth.

We need to keep Hitomi in the loop here. If her mom was in full panic mode, it'd be different, but with the situation currently de-escalated, going over her head may cause resentment.

[ ] Ask Haruka if her husband knows about magic.
-[ ] Sub-point: Ask if, since you're going to be explaining the system in detail, she'd prefer to wait until her husband can be here so you don't repeat yourself.

Let's not poke at leaving the person she, uh, married, out of the loop.
For the fist point, keep in mind we still haven't answered Haruka's question. She, our host, sent her daughter away (and insisted), and asked us a question.

... Would we turn around, go against her wishes, and call Hitomi here? It'd be one thing to talk with Hitomi after Haruka is done with us; as it is, she's still worried about her daughter and trying to get a grip on the situation.

I thought about asking if she wants for her husband to come back first, but Haruka kind of didn't wait for her husband before having this conversation. So she wants to do this alone, at least for the time being.
 
I see people make that deduction [that magical girls are witches] all of the fucking time in real life. E.g. my brother guessed himself on a blind watch-through of the anime.
People watching the show have an unfair advantage: genre savvy. They know that sort of ironic twist is just the sort of thing a dark series like this would do. People within the story don't have that advantage, because they think it's real life.

But the fact that the witchbomb is kept secret at all looks a whole lot like a genre conceit more than anything else, and I don't want to hang anything important on it.
Again, all the information we would be sharing is information that all our friends and every meguca we're met already knows, and not a single one of them has spontaneously deduced the witchbomb. Claiming that Haruka is almost certainly going to leap to the conclusion if given that same information seems ludicrous. There's hardly any reason to think that she's any more intuitive than they are. She knew a magical girl for a year without ever noticing the darker side of it, after all.

Please, can you give me a citation on this one? AFAIK when we talked to Nadia, we only mentioned the lichbomb tangentially (to explain why we hated Kyubey and didn't want him in on our meeting). Then she brushed over it and moved on to brighter topics, and we never dug in any deeper than that about her knowledge of the 'bombs.
No, you're right that we don't know for certain that she doesn't know the witchbomb. After all, if she did, she almost certainly wouldn't say anything. But we've met a lot of magical girls, and the only ones to give us any indication that they might know the witchbomb were Homura, Oriko & Kirika, Akiko and Ono. And they all found out by witnessing it (or foreseeing witnessing it). The idea is so unthinkable to them that even when Homura tried to tell people about the witchbomb, they didn't believe her.
 
I just explained why she is currently the single person we know most likely to figure out the witchbomb. I believe it is a sufficiently large risk that I would really prefer Mami not be present when she starts asking questions. She will continue to grill Hitomi after we leave to flesh out our explanation and I would not surprised if she figures it out in the next few days.
Can I point out here that, if need be, this can be partially accounted for by a number of means, from giving her enough to learn the implications. "Magical girls are very literally powered by hope comes from emotions, so if emotions suffer, so does the magical girl." to outright telling her that learning horrible things can negatively affect meguca.

-------------------

Right, two more alterations: The joke, while cute, didn't really fit the general strategy and has been swapped out for a much looser method with a focus on the goal itself.

While I think that being in an urgent phonecall might make talking to Papa Shizuki now impossible, It is worth talking about who's she's willing to have told what. Amended vote as such.

[jk]Suddenly, inexplicably, become Invisitext.

[X] Lead in: Give her the impression of someone who's responsible and concerned for our friends.

[X]Points to clear up early on.
-[X] Find out more about Haruka's relationship with magic in the past.
-[X] Ask why she brought this up.
-[X] Ask her feelings on us filling in other people about this revelation, both from her family and our friends.

[X] Conversational goals in rough order of priority.
-[X] Leave Haruka well inclined to us.
-[X] Give her cause to realize that Hitomi is safe without overemphasizing it.
-[X] Fill Haruka in on what we're trying to do. (With particular focus on what we asked her for help with today by proxy)
-[X] Acquire Haruka's support as an adult we can count on.

[X] Vote In Abeyance.

[X] Find out the status of Tsuchiya Ritsuko from Kyuubey, later.
 
I think it's weird to think we might need her permission to tell our friends that we told her stuff they already know.
 
People watching the show have an unfair advantage: genre savvy. They know that sort of ironic twist is just the sort of thing a dark series like this would do. People within the story don't have that advantage, because they think it's real life.

That doesn't seem much better, because it means they're more likely to consider the global implications of what they know.
 
Salty, whether one likes it or not, there's a direct relationship between using something and relying on that something nobody can escape.
No, there really isn't. There is no addictive quality, and no kind of coercion, and nothing of any kind forcing us to trust or utilize Kyubey any more than we choose to, at any given point.

You've argued to work with Kyuubey many times, and it still doesn't sound any more a good idea.
I think you're mischaracterizing my position, somewhat. Limited cooperation on what goals we can agree on should not be objectionable. Nations around the world do this all the time. The US and USSR agreed to treaties reducing their nuclear arsenals, for example, despite considering each other deplorable enemies.

You seem to ignore the kind of character Kyuubey is, how it operates against Magical Girls. You're proposing giving Kyuubey every single tool it uses to manipulate and kill Magical Girls.
The fuck? Firstly, I know what kind of character Kyubey is. Secondly, what the fuck. How is limited cooperation on mutual goals giving it any tools whatsoever to manipulate and kill MGs? Seriously, what the fuck?

What kind of twisted logic are you employing, here? We come up with some kind of novel way of storing Grief that doesn't involve a Grief Seed, and it suddenly has a tool for killing MGs? News flash: Kyubey would know about this accomplishment anyway, and could do whatever he wanted with that information.

Another example: we sometimes need to get rid of a bunch of Grief. So we call Kyubey and feed it to him. There. Limited cooperation on mutual goals. Are we somehow giving him tools to kill people? No.

Your reasoning is absurd. Or rather, your lack of reasoning, since you seem to just jump to a conclusion without providing any hint of how in hell you arrive at it.

I don't want Sabrina to be amongst the bajillon Magical Girls who thought 'oh well, no harm letting KB hang around' (pointedly looks at Homura) and ended up with a metaphorical knife in the back.
Could you strawman harder? I don't think you've misrepresented my arguments enough.

Furthermore, don't omit the time Kyuubey showed up at Oriko home, we repeatedly asked it and tried to force it to leave, only for it to stick around making a fool of us, traumatizing Mami further, and only leaving when it felt like it, stomping the fact it was the one in control all over us and Mami's psyche.
Pretty sure that was a time when we were asking about the weirdness of Oriko's soul, or something. Also, gonna need a citation for all of that. You're making Kyubey out to be far more sinister and cruel than he is in every other interaction in the series.
 
I think it's weird to think we might need her permission to tell our friends that we told her stuff they already know.
Oh, we'll tell pretty much everyone. Unless Haruka's a lot less smarter than I give her credit for, she'll understand that.

No, there really isn't. There is no addictive quality, and no kind of coercion, and nothing of any kind forcing us to trust or utilize Kyubey any more than we choose to, at any given point.


I think you're mischaracterizing my position, somewhat. Limited cooperation on what goals we can agree on should not be objectionable. Nations around the world do this all the time. The US and USSR agreed to treaties reducing their nuclear arsenals, for example, despite considering each other deplorable enemies.


The fuck? Firstly, I know what kind of character Kyubey is. Secondly, what the fuck. How is limited cooperation on mutual goals giving it any tools whatsoever to manipulate and kill MGs? Seriously, what the fuck?

What kind of twisted logic are you employing, here? We come up with some kind of novel way of storing Grief that doesn't involve a Grief Seed, and it suddenly has a tool for killing MGs? News flash: Kyubey would know about this accomplishment anyway, and could do whatever he wanted with that information.

Another example: we sometimes need to get rid of a bunch of Grief. So we call Kyubey and feed it to him. There. Limited cooperation on mutual goals. Are we somehow giving him tools to kill people? No.

Your reasoning is absurd. Or rather, your lack of reasoning, since you seem to just jump to a conclusion without providing any hint of how in hell you arrive at it.


Could you strawman harder? I don't think you've misrepresented my arguments enough.


Pretty sure that was a time when we were asking about the weirdness of Oriko's soul, or something. Also, gonna need a citation for all of that. You're making Kyubey out to be far more sinister and cruel than he is in every other interaction in the series.
Kyuubey is a fox. A manipulative, lying weasel that goes around listening, collecting information far, far beyond what anybody else around it understands, and then uses words to fuck everyone up at its pleasure.

Words. Information. This is all Kyuubey needs to fuck us up.

Working with Kyuubey means giving him more information.

There's a reason why we usually call it to dump Grief and leave without comment. The time we had Kyuubey help with our experiment? We were walking on eggshells to make sure we didn't show anything it wouldn't have found out anyway by observing from afar; making sure we didn't say anything wrong. We can't do that often, we can't even be sure we didn't let anything slip out until Kyuubey pops up and shoves it on our face the worst possible moment.

Which is what Kyuubey does.

In short, I have two points: First that I believe you're greatly understimating the value of all sorts of information, and how easy Kyuubey would make us dance on his strings if he simply had more.

Second: Dealing with Kyuubey is mind-meltingly stressful and frustrating, because we'd have to measure every single word we utter, dissect every single word it uses, and even if we put all our effort into it, we'll never be able to breathe easily, because Kyuubey is far more cunning than we are.

The fact Mami would suffer every moment of it she was there for is almost an afterthought.
 
Oh, we'll tell pretty much everyone. Unless Haruka's a lot less smarter than I give her credit for, she'll understand that.


Kyuubey is a fox. A manipulative, lying weasel that goes around listening, collecting information far, far beyond what anybody else around it understands, and then uses words to fuck everyone up at its pleasure.

Words. Information. This is all Kyuubey needs to fuck us up.

Working with Kyuubey means giving him more information.
Not really. Kyubey could make things far, far more difficult for us than they are. He doesn't.

Likewise, he could drop the Witchbomb on Madoka to pressure her into making a contract. He hasn't. He could drop the Witchbomb on Mami at a time when we're not around. He hasn't.

And saying that he is a lying weasel is something of a mischaracterisation. He lies by omission, yes. But even then, he's usually pretty honest when asked a question. The closest thing he's said to a lie (not of the omission variety) in the series was when he answered Kyouko by saying that he's never seen a magical girl return from being a Witch, but that it might be possible. This is technically true, but by that point, it was likely that Kyouko would have tried anyway even if Kyubey had said that it was impossible.

There's a reason why we usually call it to dump Grief and leave without comment. The time we had Kyuubey help with our experiment? We were walking on eggshells to make sure we didn't show anything it wouldn't have found out anyway by observing from afar; making sure we didn't say anything wrong. We can't do that often, we can't even be sure we didn't let anything slip out until Kyuubey pops up and shoves it on our face the worst possible moment.
You're being ridiculously paranoid. We did this same "lalalala I'm not talking to you" bullshit throughout the quest, despite later saying out loud (unsecured) exactly what we are trying to do.

By contrast, Kyubey has been pretty consistently helpful and cooperative throughout the entire quest. Does that mean we should trust him? No. But that doesn't mean we should treat him like a hated enemy we can't even cooperate with on a limited basis.

In short, I have two points: First that I believe you're greatly understimating the value of all sorts of information, and how easy Kyuubey would make us dance on his strings if he simply had more.
I think you're greatly overestimating the value of all sorts of information and how easy it would be for Kyubey to manipulate us at all with the information we might provide him.

Second: Dealing with Kyuubey is mind-meltingly stressful and frustrating, because we'd have to measure every single word we utter, dissect every single word it uses, and even if we put all our effort into it, we'll never be able to breathe easily, because Kyuubey is far more cunning than we are.
I'll tenatively agree to this point, but I will emphasize that you make it mind-meltingly stressful by looking at everything through a lense of Kyubey being sinister, cruel, hostile, a cunning mastermind, and always out to get us at every conceivable turn. That would make dealing with a toddler mind-meltingly stressful.

The fact Mami would suffer every moment of it she was there for is almost an afterthought.
Did I ever advocate for dealing with Kyubey when Mami is around? No. Stop misrepresenting my arguments.
 
Not really. Kyubey could make things far, far more difficult for us than they are. He doesn't.

Likewise, he could drop the Witchbomb on Madoka to pressure her into making a contract. He hasn't. He could drop the Witchbomb on Mami at a time when we're not around. He hasn't.

And saying that he is a lying weasel is something of a mischaracterisation. He lies by omission, yes. But even then, he's usually pretty honest when asked a question. The closest thing he's said to a lie (not of the omission variety) in the series was when he answered Kyouko by saying that he's never seen a magical girl return from being a Witch, but that it might be possible. This is technically true, but by that point, it was likely that Kyouko would have tried anyway even if Kyubey had said that it was impossible.


You're being ridiculously paranoid. We did this same "lalalala I'm not talking to you" bullshit throughout the quest, despite later saying out loud (unsecured) exactly what we are trying to do.

By contrast, Kyubey has been pretty consistently helpful and cooperative throughout the entire quest. Does that mean we should trust him? No. But that doesn't mean we should treat him like a hated enemy we can't even cooperate with on a limited basis.


I think you're greatly overestimating the value of all sorts of information and how easy it would be for Kyubey to manipulate us at all with the information we might provide him.


I'll tenatively agree to this point, but I will emphasize that you make it mind-meltingly stressful by looking at everything through a lense of Kyubey being sinister, cruel, hostile, a cunning mastermind, and always out to get us at every conceivable turn. That would make dealing with a toddler mind-meltingly stressful.


Did I ever advocate for dealing with Kyubey when Mami is around? No. Stop misrepresenting my arguments.

My position on the matter is a response to pretty much every time we deigned to deal with Kyuubey.

There's a staggeringly large amount of the thread that's entirely too welcome of Kyuubey whenever it sticks around for an update without blatantly doing Evil Acts. Nevermind if Kyuubey makes a joke. His approval ratings just skyrocket then.

So I'll stay firmly as possible on the 'as little KB interaction as possible' camp, because if we don't, I'm certain the thread would let KB have way too much control over us, in time.
 
Back
Top