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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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SaltyWaffles said:
Are you suggesting that we Witchbomb every immigrant/refugee coming into Mitakihara?
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Given the potential repercussions of failing to do so, I think it's worth considering. If not now then in the future. And even beyond that, I think it's just the ethical thing to do. (Naturally, this is going to be limited by the size of our available support network, so there's almost certainly a gap between the ideal and reality for a while.) If nothing else, we should try to keep track of the Informed and Innocent in entrance interviews or something.

I also don't feel like the Witchbomb is something any meguca would just carelessly blurt out--it's a horrible revelation, and not one you'd want to spread around without very careful consideration. You never know how someone will take it.
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Unfortunately, it only takes a single index case to cause outbreak in an unprotected population. And since we're talking about an IDEA instead of a pathogen with physical form and limitations, the spread can easily circumvent a lot of traditional barriers and we finally wreck stupid Madagascar.

And yes, it's not something a lot of girls are going to be loud about, but that only affects WHEN it happens. Setting aside the fact that malicious actors like Soujuu Ayase exist, it's easy enough to imagine a number of ways it could come out accidentally (slip of the tongue; eavesdropping), in the heat of the moment (arguments happen), or even just making the connection the black stuff that we call "Grief" is the same as the stuff in a Grief Seed and extrapolating a bit (and even if she doesn't spiral, she might confide in a friend about her suspicions only to have them brutally confirmed a short time later... it doesn't even necessarily matter if they know it's true or not because the idea is bad enough).
 
Onmur said:
Can't have people bomb all your friends to death if you bomb them to death first.
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Yeah, it's risky. Not gonna deny that. But what we're doing has a lot of parallels with industrialisation and globalisation, so I believe it's unfortunately sort of inevitable. If you can think of some less-dangerous approach to immunising our population against an idea than individually exposing the facts under controlled circumstances with supportive people on-hand, I'm legitimately interested-- hardening meguca civilisation against the Witchbomb is what I'm after, however it happens.
 
[X] Use Chibis to set the table.
-[X] See if Kazumi can make her own.

[X] Keep chat light during dinner.
-[X] Can Niko be your Science Buddy?

[X] If you have a few idle minutes at any point, ask Mami to try extending your range with her ribbons.

[X] Witch Hunt.
-[X] Ask Sayaka if she feels confident in her Clone Power to scout ahead. That should become standard practice, to be honest.
-[X] Play support and battlefield control. Pay attention to the Pleiades' styles.
-[X] Clear the Seed and give it to the Pleiades.
 
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[X] Torgamous

This, we need to show off Chibi's to keep the cutesy fun mood going from karaoke, especially if you all are wanting to bring Hard Topics into the conversation so quick. Otherwise it gives Gilgabrina a slight feel of "Fun Quota Has Been Met, its Keikaku Time". Already a bit of a risk with that the way our social calendar was clearly straining with optimization earlier, trying to arrange the after-dinner witch hunt and everything else.

To appease the SCIENCE! people, wouldn't this be an excellent chance to test out Kazumis "Copy the Effect, not the Method" magic in relation to Grief? I mean, with both Sabrina and Mami able to make a very similar effect with very different powers, its a nearly perfect study.
 
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Racoras said:
This, we need to show off Chibi's to keep the cutesy fun mood going from karaoke, especially if you all are wanting to bring Hard Topics into the conversation so quick. Otherwise it gives Gilgabrina a slight feel of "Fun Quota Has Been Met, its Keikaku Time". Already a bit of a risk with that the way our social calendar was clearly straining with optimization earlier, trying to arrange the after-dinner witch hunt and everything else.
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The Hard Topic has been removed. Is the vote improved?
 
[X] Use Chibis to set the table.
-[X] See if Kazumi can make her own.

[X] Keep chat light during dinner.
-[X] Share your vague plans for world-wide Grief cleansing with everyone.

[X] If you have a few idle minutes at any point, ask Mami to try extending your range with her ribbons.

[X] Witch Hunt.
-[X] Ask Sayaka if she feels confident in her Clone Power to scout ahead. That should become standard practice, to be honest.
-[X] Play support and battlefield control. Pay attention to the Pleiades' styles.
-[X] Clear the Seed and give it to the Pleiades.

I don't think Vague Future Plans is a Hard Topic? It could segue into everyone sharing future plans, if they have any.

And we've barely met Niko. Shouldn't we wait until we go to Asunaro before asking her to do SCIENCE! together? :p
 
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Onmur said:
point, ask Mami to
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Onmur said:
Shouldn't we wait until we go to Asunaro before asking her to do SCIENCE! together? :p
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We don't go to Asunaro, though. It's in the threadmarks and everything!
Onmur said:
It could segue into everyone sharing future plans, if they have any.
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Kazumi can travel the world introducing meguca to the glory of Double Leg Skirts, colloquially known as 'pants'.


Completely unrelated topic: from what we know of Grief constructs, is there any reason one couldn't be both perfectly reflective and glowing?
 
[X] Torgamous

I like the idea of discussing SCIENCE ideas. And seeing if Kazumi can copy any part of our Grief control.

Also, we probably should get around to building a stockpile of Grief Seeds at some point, so that we can effectively give out Clear Seeds to girls/groups that don't have any Grief Seeds of their own (and make sure that every member of our group has one). Plus, giving Homura a bunch of Clear Seeds would probably give her some peace of mind--even in the worst case scenario, in which she needs to loop again and Sabrina isn't there next time, she'll have an extremely potent tool and bargaining chip to give her a fighting chance.

---

Also, guys? Any thoughts about my idea of creating a Grief construct lie detector, testing out its effectiveness with Homura, and then using it to question Oriko, to put Homura's mind at ease? I mean, if we can prove to Homura that it works well, and we let Homura question Oriko to her heart's content, I think she's rational enough that she'd be willing to at least let Oriko and Kirika go places while supervised. It'd be really good for their mental health, and it'd be a big first step towards mending bridges between them and the rest of our group.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
I think she's rational enough that she'd be willing to at least let Oriko
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Oriko is a super duper severe edge case where Homura's (mostly) functional insanity is concerned.

Unless we've gotten her so convinced of the lie detector's trustworthiness that she'd stake her universe on it, she'll just dismiss it as Oriko fooling or overcoming it somehow.

I'm in no way against creating a grief lie detector for our own personal use in social, but it's not a silver bullet for the Homura/Oriko situation.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Oriko is a super duper severe edge case where Homura's (mostly) functional insanity is concerned.

Unless we've gotten her so convinced of the lie detector's trustworthiness that she'd stake her universe on it, she'll just dismiss it as Oriko fooling or overcoming it somehow.

I'm in no way against creating a grief lie detector for our own personal use in social, but it's not a silver bullet for the Homura/Oriko situation.
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I'm not saying it will let Homura overcome her trauma. But right now, she actually has a rational basis for her fear and distrust of Oriko. Doing the lie detector thing would remove the rational basis, allowing for slow progress to be made.
 
DschingisKhan said:
Given the potential repercussions of failing to do so, I think it's worth considering. If not now then in the future. And even beyond that, I think it's just the ethical thing to do. (Naturally, this is going to be limited by the size of our available support network, so there's almost certainly a gap between the ideal and reality for a while.) If nothing else, we should try to keep track of the Informed and Innocent in entrance interviews or something.
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The problem is, it's really not something you can ask about without giving it away (or giving them enough of a hint for them to figure it out on their own). I mean, I suppose you can ask each girl individually what she knows about the magical girl system and hope that they're all forthcoming, but that's not terribly reliable.

Unfortunately, it only takes a single index case to cause outbreak in an unprotected population. And since we're talking about an IDEA instead of a pathogen with physical form and limitations, the spread can easily circumvent a lot of traditional barriers and we finally wreck stupid Madagascar.

And yes, it's not something a lot of girls are going to be loud about, but that only affects WHEN it happens. Setting aside the fact that malicious actors like Soujuu Ayase exist, it's easy enough to imagine a number of ways it could come out accidentally (slip of the tongue; eavesdropping), in the heat of the moment (arguments happen), or even just making the connection the black stuff that we call "Grief" is the same as the stuff in a Grief Seed and extrapolating a bit (and even if she doesn't spiral, she might confide in a friend about her suspicions only to have them brutally confirmed a short time later... it doesn't even necessarily matter if they know it's true or not because the idea is bad enough).
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Again, it's probably better for us to hold off on it as long as possible, giving us time to build as much of a support network as possible, and simply handle an outbreak if/when it occurs. It's easier for Sabrina to hang around Mitakihara and do sweeps to monitor everyone while our support network does its work than it is to Witch bomb every girl individually and treat her completely, one after the other.

Simply put, the Witchbomb is unpredictable in its effects. It can play heavily off of past trauma that we might know nothing about. As much as keeping the Witchbomb secret might feel like a ticking time bomb, dropping the Witchbomb on everyone in rapid succession ensures that we're basically an entire city bristling with subtle ticking time bombs that much more chaotic.

On top of that, a lot of the refugees/immigrants are going to be at their most vulnerable when they first arrive and settle in. Dropping the Witchbomb on them then is a terrible idea.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
The problem is, it's really not something you can ask about without giving it away (or giving them enough of a hint for them to figure it out on their own). I mean, I suppose you can ask each girl individually what she knows about the magical girl system and hope that they're all forthcoming, but that's not terribly reliable.
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Honestly, it occurs to me that there may well be a simple question to probe for the witchbomb:

"Have you seen the birth of a witch?"

It can be taken as referring to the moment a familiar takes enough lives to grow into a full witch... or, by those who already know of it, as the moment a magical girl gives into despair.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Honestly, it occurs to me that there may well be a simple question to probe for the witchbomb:

"Have you seen the birth of a witch?"

It can be taken as referring to the moment a familiar takes enough lives to grow into a full witch... or, by those who already know of it, as the moment a magical girl gives into despair.
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The problem is that by bringing Witches' origin into question, we could be prompting curious megucas to investigate.

The problem with infohazards.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Honestly, it occurs to me that there may well be a simple question to probe for the witchbomb:

"Have you seen the birth of a witch?"

It can be taken as referring to the moment a familiar takes enough lives to grow into a full witch... or, by those who already know of it, as the moment a magical girl gives into despair.
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Except that wouldn't work, because that would also include seeing a Grief Seed being full long enough to rehatch into a Witch.

Which is a practice that I don't understand why isn't more common. I mean, it's easier to fight a Witch you've fought before, and you effectively re-use a Grief Seed.

Also, seeing a Familiar turn into a Witch is another false positive. Additionally, girls who have been Witchbombed wouldn't necessarily have seen a girl Witchout before.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
The problem is, it's really not something you can ask about without giving it away (or giving them enough of a hint for them to figure it out on their own). I mean, I suppose you can ask each girl individually what she knows about the magical girl system and hope that they're all forthcoming, but that's not terribly reliable.
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I was considering that. I think even if you're not going to tell everyone, it's probably still possible to ask about it in such a way that you'll get most of the Informed while keeping the Innocent generally oblivious beyond the general idea that we're soliciting information help figure out how to better protect civilians from Witch presence (though it feels Kyubey-grade skeevy when I put it like that...).
Again, it's probably better for us to hold off on it as long as possible, giving us time to build as much of a support network as possible, and simply handle an outbreak if/when it occurs.
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Hm, kind of a chicken-and-egg problem, finding and coordinating... Community Wellness Ambassadors(?) without having a clear idea of who's suitable and trustworthy. Aside from getting Oriko back in the game, I wonder what abilities we have available to assist with the vetting process?
Simply put, the Witchbomb is unpredictable in its effects. It can play heavily off of past trauma that we might know nothing about. As much as keeping the Witchbomb secret might feel like a ticking time bomb, dropping the Witchbomb on everyone in rapid succession ensures that we're basically an entire city bristling with subtle ticking time bombs that much more chaotic.
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Yeah, there's a middle ground that we'll want to find. It'll probably be related to the ratio of girls who know and don't know. I'm somewhat thinking that some kind of mentorship/buddy system (call them Soeurs, natch! ;)) could be worth pushing for, but I'm not sure how to sell that to veterans without them bristling at it being condescending.
On top of that, a lot of the refugees/immigrants are going to be at their most vulnerable when they first arrive and settle in. Dropping the Witchbomb on them then is a terrible idea.
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This is a really good point, thank you.
[jk] Mind-altering drugs are the answer; set up an opium den.
...well, probably a joke.

Ah right, while I'm thinking about it,
[X] Torgamous

I think it'll help reinforce Mami, and that's Important.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Except that wouldn't work, because that would also include seeing a Grief Seed being full long enough to rehatch into a Witch.
Also, seeing a Familiar turn into a Witch is another false positive. Additionally, girls who have been Witchbombed wouldn't necessarily have seen a girl Witchout before.
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False positives are only an issue if you only look at what they say. How they respond is more important than what they respond with.
With fresh meguca, they probably won't know what we're talking about, so we can play it off as working on getting information on conditions that may spawn a witch, for proactive defense.
With those more experienced (about lichbombed or so), they might talk about familiars evolving or seeds hatching. We can still try the information route, possibly focusing on how the area felt prior to the witch's birth.
With the witchbombed, it will be pretty obvious, and so we will comfort them. Hopefully by the time we have to do this, we have Mami to the point where she can help, so we don't have to try to dance around it with her.

Above all else, we make sure the girls in the loop at each stage are aware that not everyone is in their loop, and to be careful of what you say around those who aren't.
Though I would expect that those who are in the loop would understand the necessity of being careful, given the traumatic nature of the content. At least some of those already witchbombed probably got bombed by someone close to them turning - they know how rough it is to learn that.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Except that wouldn't work, because that would also include seeing a Grief Seed being full long enough to rehatch into a Witch.

Which is a practice that I don't understand why isn't more common. I mean, it's easier to fight a Witch you've fought before, and you effectively re-use a Grief Seed.

Also, seeing a Familiar turn into a Witch is another false positive. Additionally, girls who have been Witchbombed wouldn't necessarily have seen a girl Witchout before.
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That the question has a bunch of false positives is part of the point. What you're looking for isn't the abstract answer of "yes" or "no." You're looking for the emotions on display. Someone is going to respond very differently to having once watched a seed hatch, then they are to being reminded of their history of familiar farming, than they are to having seen a magical girl fall to despair.

--------

As far as rehatching witches, it wouldn't surprise me if witches, being both people and literally made from magic, are fully capable of adapting to past experiences. If they either learn who their fighting or improve themselves as they accumulate grief it would make fighting a witch multiple times more and more dangerous.

We've seen Aurora learn how to remain semi-active after being fully drained, and likewise it's notable that the seed we attempted and failed to inject hope into was Hildegard... who we had previously messed around with by injecting hope into before we defeated her. (and by all appearances that had hurt her... a lot. She'd have plenty of reason to learn to protect herself, especially if we were hitting her with our natural enchantment back then without knowing what it was. The only question is her capacity to do so.)

Even in canon Charlotte is a witch hatched from a seed that's noted by Homura to be "different" and capable of defeating a three year veteran while Octavia is clearly doing different things between the trainyard and the next encounter.

So yeah, I'd put it to witches being capable of adaptation and becoming far more dangerous after each chance to learn.
 
Random832 said:
But they'd know what you're asking about.
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Not necessarily. I mean, for all they know, Sabrina doesn't know about the Witchbomb. And besides, knowing the truth is not the same thing as having witnessed it oneself.

The bigger issue is that for those who have, it was probably a deeply traumatizing moment and this is not the best way to bring it up.
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Or Sabrina misreads someone, thinks she has been Witchbombed, then discusses the Witchbomb, only to realize she just Witchbombed someone.

Which could totally happen.

Example: Girl has seen a Familiar kill someone and turn into a Witch. When asked the question, she responds like she's remembering something traumatic, and answers yes. Sabrina, thinking she's been Witchbombed, proceeds to discuss the Witchbomb. Girl is then massively horrified.

Another example: Girl was on a team with another MG. MG was carrying a full Grief Seed, and didn't realize it was about to hatch. Girl sees the Witch hatch, sees the other MG killed by the Witch, then kills the Witch herself. Traumatic incident, has reason to answer yes. Another girl accidentally Witchbombed.

Another example: A girl answers yes, having seen a Witch transform from a relatively harmless form into something horrifying and much more powerful. She incorrectly thinks that this is the birth of a Witch, and answers yes. If it was a sufficiently scary experience for her, she might even react like she's remembering something traumatic. Another girl accidentally Witchbombed.

Another example of failure: A girl knows about the Witchbomb, but has not seen a Witch be born. Since she also knows that Witches can be born from familiars or full Grief Seeds, the question doesn't trigger a significantly negative reaction. She answers no. Sabrina assumes that she hasn't been Witchbombed, and thus the entire screening process is rendered moot.

Another example: A girl has been Witchbombed, but was not sufficiently traumatized by it, or has had enough time/coping mechanisms to not show a significantly negative reaction to an oblique, possible allusion to it. She answers no, because she hasn't seen a Witch be born herself. Screening process rendered moot.

I could go on.

The fact of the matter is, it's not just the Witchbomb. It's also the lichbomb, too. After all, if Mami could go all that time without knowing that "soul gem" is a literal term, so could anyone else.
 
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So I got thinking about what eeeeviiiiiiil shiiiiiiit meguca could get up to with access to Clear Seeds... which 'bad' gucas will get as part of our plan to get everyone Empty Seeds.

Obviously, every meguca having an Empty Seed is better than the current system, so let's say free magic abuse is acceptable collateral damage... while we're on the 'Distribution' phase of our plan.

I'm pretty sure plenty of people here won't feel good letting 'shady' meguca abuse infinite magic, and would rather take responsibility and put a stop to it... though that might not mean much, as meguca who would use infinite magic for 'evil' most likely would also use finite magic for 'evil, and would be the kind of meguca we want to hunt down in some fashion, anyway.

What I'm thinking is that, if we call the 'first' part of our overall plan 'Distribution' (of Empty Seeds), then we should at some point come to a 'second' part of the plan 'Damage Control', in which we attempt to reduce the collateral damage we caused by spreading the free magic to everyone, evulzgucas included.

... That's right, I'm talking about... throwing parties! :V Reach out to every meguca we can, invite them to meet and know each other, have fun, use the occassion to pick out those with socialization problems for extra help, create a sense of unity... just try to make up for the 'magic/mundane' divide by showing the megucas that even if they buy into it, they're not alone and don't need to be miserable.

And if we can get normal friends of gucas mixed in, that might help even more!

(Of course, this is not something we'll ever get to in-Quest, so it's just something to give Brina thing to look forward to.)
 
Onmur said:
So I got thinking about what eeeeviiiiiiil shiiiiiiit meguca could get up to with access to Clear Seeds... which 'bad' gucas will get as part of our plan to get everyone Empty Seeds.

Obviously, every meguca having an Empty Seed is better than the current system, so let's say free magic abuse is acceptable collateral damage... while we're on the 'Distribution' phase of our plan.

I'm pretty sure plenty of people here won't feel good letting 'shady' meguca abuse infinite magic, and would rather take responsibility and put a stop to it... though that might not mean much, as meguca who would use infinite magic for 'evil' most likely would also use finite magic for 'evil, and would be the kind of meguca we want to hunt down in some fashion, anyway.

What I'm thinking is that, if we call the 'first' part of our overall plan 'Distribution' (of Empty Seeds), then we should at some point come to a 'second' part of the plan 'Damage Control', in which we attempt to reduce the collateral damage we caused by spreading the free magic to everyone, evulzgucas included.

... That's right, I'm talking about... throwing parties! :V Reach out to every meguca we can, invite them to meet and know each other, have fun, use the occassion to pick out those with socialization problems for extra help, create a sense of unity... just try to make up for the 'magic/mundane' divide by showing the megucas that even if they buy into it, they're not alone and don't need to be miserable.

And if we can get normal friends of gucas mixed in, that might help even more!

(Of course, this is not something we'll ever get to in-Quest, so it's just something to give Brina thing to look forward to.)
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It's not as silly as you think, our position as the only one with infinte amount of food supply already makes us a strongest meguca arounds.

All meguca who hears about us will inevetably come to us sooner or laters so throwing parties or some sort could be a good way to meet many meguca groups.

Also since we basicaly the only one with replenishable foods without needs for hunting witches, it's safe to say we will formed a meguca civilization with us as a head of state
 
Right, so at any rate, Sayaka is an angel. When do we want to confront her about this? Tonight after the hunt? Later?
 
Kaizuki said:
Right, so at any rate, Sayaka is an angel. When do we want to confront her about this? Tonight after the hunt? Later?
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I am 100% in favor of talking to her tonight after the hunt. In addition to being a slightly empty spot, the timing also mitigates some nasty possibilities that keep creeping into my head.

Specifically, the idea that, if knowledge is dripping into her head over time or she's being reminded of things as the days pass, which would explain why she's worrying about confessing to Kyousuke now of all times, she could end up auto-witchbombed by her connection in the next couple days. (Given how early she references the lichbomb, among other things, it's not exceptionally likely but I find it highly concerning nevertheless.)

Over on the discord, Firn brought up the possibility that our privacy field would cut off Sayaka from the Law of Cycles. Which pushes me in favor of doing things in a way that means she doesn't have to be part of the Law of Cycles consciously in order for us to fill her in. (Though really, I was kinda in favor of that anyways.)

The specific idea that comes to mind is explaining our metaknowledge and then asking if Sayaka experiences something similar, possibly subconsciously since she's not a blank slate/possibly made by magic. (After all, we know that Madoka has something similar to our metaknowledge in the form of her past life memories. As a result, it's easy enough to build a conjecture that that's how it works for most people who aren't us.)
 
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