Binged through it all and had a great time.
Curious though do we really need to prevent Madoka from contracting as we got infinite magic with grief removal?.

Also we should totally share the theory with Homura about Walpurgisnacht hunting Madoka & Homura and then convince her you all should take a weekend off in Italy to see if it'll delay the event.
Also lots of more cute!
Also I don't feel this is any filler at all we need more cute it's great!
Welcome! :)

The problems with Madoka contracting are two: One is that she always seems to burn all her magic in one attack beyond the first few timelines. The real sticking point is that Homura can't accept a timeline in which Madoka contracts, and since we've done everything we could to make her accept this timeline as the last one, letting Madoka contract would break Homura now.
 
Binged through it all and had a great time.
Curious though do we really need to prevent Madoka from contracting as we got infinite magic with grief removal?
Yes. Homura sees any Madoka contract as a Bad End scenario, and tbh even with our grief powers it still means Madoka's in danger of becoming a Universe-consuming Eldritch Abomination if we ever fuck up, which given an infinite amount of time is inevitable. Even within a normal human lifetime it's an unacceptable risk.
 
Yes. Homura sees any Madoka contract as a Bad End scenario, and tbh even with our grief powers it still means Madoka's in danger of becoming a Universe-consuming Eldritch Abomination if we ever fuck up, which given an infinite amount of time is inevitable. Even within a normal human lifetime it's an unacceptable risk.
Not necessarily. If Madoka makes her canon Wish, except for the part about her becoming the concept, it'd all be fine. And it isn't inevitable, since the obvious alternative to Witching out is having one's soul gem destroyed or destroying one's Soul Gem oneself.
 
It's still not a great option.

The problem with Madoka is that she's a Martyr, and Homura is a Protector, so by nature their own love for one another would be at odds with their SO or their own nature. Homura would prefer for Madoka to remain quiet but happy in the background having nothing more dangerous than visiting a theme park happen to her. Madoka can't stand that, and wants to be beside Homura or even in front of her to take bullets for her and to help as many people as possible.

That's the tragedy of their relationship. They're really not made for each other at all, but Homura at least really does love Madoka, and while it's not clear if it's happened yet here, Madoka in canon returned her feelings (IIRC). It's going to take some hardcore cheesing for the relationship to make both participants happy.

Fakeedit: Ya know, I really should make a little database where I can put down and quantify these... archetypes, I've been assigning people. Sayaka is a Paladin, Homura is a Protector, and Madoka is a Martyr... but what do those mean and what about the rest of the cast? I'm gonna give it more thought.
 
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Yes. Homura sees any Madoka contract as a Bad End scenario, and tbh even with our grief powers it still means Madoka's in danger of becoming a Universe-consuming Eldritch Abomination if we ever fuck up, which given an infinite amount of time is inevitable. Even within a normal human lifetime it's an unacceptable risk.
It's a shame really. Madoka could do so much good and we know for certain that particular wrinkle can be ironed out by wishing good. Can we even stop Madoka once she has the whole picture? I know Homura managed to convince Madoka to not contract in an alt timeline but that Madoka didn't know about Madokami.
 
I would like to point out that we are the Good Wish.

Madoka's not contracting, m8. It'd go very poorly for everyone involved.
 
Obviously, the answer is to replace Madoka with a cunningly indistinguishable imposter, and then put the original Madoka in stasis and hand her over to Homura for safekeeping.

That way, no risk of a DOOMWISH, and everybody's happy.

Edit: Even better refinement of the plan to follow.

Kyouko has illusion powers she doesn't use, right? And she's an orphan, and feels bad about that.

Put Madoka in stasis. Have a mindguca brainwash Kyouko into thinking she's Madoka and using her illusion powers to uphold the charade. She gets a new family. Madoka never contracts. Everybody wins.
 
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I'd rather not risk it when the fate of the world is at stake.


Neither of those is an acceptable outcome for us, either.
Way to ignore my main point, Narrator. Again, if Madoka makes her canon wish without the part that makes her into a concept, her Witch would never come to pass.

As for the whole "neither is an acceptable outcome" bit: that's absurd logic. Is Dedolere an acceptable outcome for us? Because, by your logic, unacceptable outcomes are literally inevitable in that regard. And so is Homura's death or turning into a Witch. And Mami. And Sayaka. See where that logic falls apart?

Like, the fact that Witches are still going to be born no matter what we do is horrible. The fact that Witches already were born is horrible. All of those grief seeds that the Incubators have are irretrievable, too. And no matter what, Sabrina's reach will never be universal--not without an existing Concept's power to hijack. And Sabrina's power is nowhere near that of a Concept.

Madoka making her canon wish excepting the part about her becoming a Concept is precisely the way to ensure that both Homura and Madoka are happy. Madoka eliminates the key problem without sacrificing herself; Homura ensures that Madoka remains happy and alive. Rebellion proves that the Law of Cycles can exist just fine without the Madoka aspect of it. If need be, we can even modify the wish slightly to be absolutely sure that the outcome is the same except for the parts we don't want.

Remember, Wishes can create people out of nothing. Creating a god that isn't her to do all of the things Madokami did in canon is entirely within Madoka's power.


And so what if Madoka becomes a magical girl in the process? We're around, and if preventing the death of one meguca is beyond us, what the hell are we even attempting to accomplish, here?
 
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Rebellion proves that the Law of Cycles can exist just fine without the Madoka aspect of it.
Yes and no.

Homulucifer ripping Madoka out of the Law of Cycles didn't break Causality, since it occurred in response to the creation/existence of the Law of Cycles.

Madoka making her canon Wish without the becoming a concept part breaks Causality, because the retroactive nature of the Wish causes there to no longer any reason for the Wish to have been made in the first place.

This is different from Homura's time looping, because the cause of the start of her loops (Madoka's death) still exists as a future outcome.

Madoka's canon Wish dodges that issue by removing Madoka herself from Causality entirely.
 
Them turning into witches is less than ideal, but we can hold onto their Grief Seeds until we figure out dewitching. Madoka turning into a witch means everything's fucked.
Thinking about it, if everything you mean the city, thats okay. Heck even the earth, solar system and galaxy is reversible given enough time and effort of millenias. Universal everything or multiversal, we're fucked right?
 
Uhh

What?

If the entire Earth is destroyed, I don't think Sabrina can survive it.

Barring radical acts of grief transumanism and being outside the blast radius that is. If Sabrina is her gem, then the need to breathe may be a habit we can wean ourselves off of. We could try switching over to a grief puppet body or somehow oxygenating our cells with magic or something.
 
Without oxygen, our brain would cease to function properly and we would be rendered braindead, forced to operate essentially without a body.
Chances are that would suck.

Also, Madoka's witch is a Universe Eater. Balance is a big theme in PMMM, IIRC, and Madoka's wish potential can literally rewrite the fundamental laws of the universe. Like, break Causality and shit, not locally, but everywhere. There wouldn't be anywhere to run, even if we could flee Earth.

Madoka's witch spells death for literally everyone but Homura, because Homu can loop. And we've backed her up that she doesn't have to do that any more; her having to loop again might make her witch too.
 
Also, Madoka's witch is a Universe Eater. Balance is a big theme in PMMM, IIRC, and Madoka's wish potential can literally rewrite the fundamental laws of the universe. Like, break Causality and shit, not locally, but everywhere. There wouldn't be anywhere to run, even if we could flee Earth.

Madoka's witch spells death for literally everyone but Homura, because Homu can loop. And we've backed her up that she doesn't have to do that any more; her having to loop again might make her witch too.

That's *Ultimate* Gretchen. Which isn't so much Madoka's witch but every witch there ever was or ever will be amalgamated by Madoka taking on all of their burdens herself.

Normal Gretchen is just a planet eater.
 
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[x] I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles)
[x] Canta Per Me
[x] Try and get Homura to sing at least one song. Nothing boundary pushing, you want this to be pleasant for her.
[X] Telepathy Sayaka if there's a moment where you're both free.
-[X] (Channel Kirika.) Confessing takes courage no matter what kind of personality you have. In the end, it's really just down to her being brave and asking him out on a date.
--[X] (Good natured teasing) ... since it's Kwijibo, she may want to do so extra bluntly.
[x] Confirm plans. You and Mami will have dinner with the Plieades after karaoke. Be yourself and let conversation go as it may.
 
And we can do that for songs we expect to find on the karaoke machine, if Firn really insists on not stretching things over a trivial bit of fun. I have no idea if a 30 year old American Country song is something you'd expect to find on a Japanese karaoke machine, which may be adjusting my view of what our limits are.
Funnily enough, it was, in my extremely limited experience. They had a shocking collection of English songs, pop and older, as well as Disney songs, and there was one Italian opera. My friend loved that one. :V
Then what is even the point of karaoke?
That's one thing - if you explicitly want to show off with your powers for songs beyond the scope of the karaoke machine, you can vote for it, yeah.
Hmm.

I think that we should just make a bunch of suggestions, but not actually explicitly vote on a song, instead voting for the broad gist of what we want and letting Firn pick the song himself.

@Firnagzen , is that reasonable?
That works, yeah! Explicit song votes are fine, but I've read through the thread picking out songs, too.
 
Yes and no.

Homulucifer ripping Madoka out of the Law of Cycles didn't break Causality, since it occurred in response to the creation/existence of the Law of Cycles.

Madoka making her canon Wish without the becoming a concept part breaks Causality, because the retroactive nature of the Wish causes there to no longer any reason for the Wish to have been made in the first place.

This is different from Homura's time looping, because the cause of the start of her loops (Madoka's death) still exists as a future outcome.

Madoka's canon Wish dodges that issue by removing Madoka herself from Causality entirely.
...that is wrong on every level. The series and Rebellion both show, repeatedly, that causality doesn't work that way. Retroactive wishes are entirely possible.

Madoka's Wish is probably the best example. Her Wish removes the reason for her making a Wish in the first place. But there's no problem. Hell, Wishes are by their nature retroactive, removing the reason for making a Wish in the first place. Mami's injuries are gone? She would no longer need to Wish to live. And so on.

Also, why the hell do people keep latching onto the whole "Madoka witching out would be game over" bit, while ignoring the central point?
 
Again, if Madoka makes her canon wish without the part that makes her into a concept, her Witch would never come to pass.
And I'd prefer not to gamble on that wish coming out just right when it hasn't worked in the last hundred loops. And there's a decent chance that, without a cosmic retcon taking her timelooping powers away, Homura will loop again and undo everything we've accomplished. She won't accept a contracted Madoka.

Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of the Law of Cycles/Madokami as a "solution" in the first place. It doesn't really save anyone, it just lets them die more peacefully. It prevents witches, but the girls still disappear. They still suffer and despair. The ones that die in battle still die. Kyubey still exploits human children. The system is diminished somewhat, but it is not broken.

I'd prefer to seek a more effective solution.

As for the whole "neither is an acceptable outcome" bit: that's absurd logic.
I said "neither is an acceptable outcome" in response to you describing two ways that Madoka's Soul Gem could be broken before she witches out. Alternatives that involve a dead Madoka are not workable alternatives.

Thinking about it, if everything you mean the city, thats okay. Heck even the earth, solar system and galaxy is reversible given enough time and effort of millenias. Universal everything or multiversal, we're fucked right?
Everything means the planet, at a bare minimum. And no, seven billion people dying is not okay. As far as I know, we don't have the power to bring the dead back to life in any meaningful way.

Hell, Wishes are by their nature retroactive, removing the reason for making a Wish in the first place. Mami's injuries are gone? She would no longer need to Wish to live. And so on.
That's not true. Most Wishes aren't retroactive. Madoka's and Homura's are unusual in that way. So unusual that Kyubey actually comments on it.

Mami's injuries were healed. They weren't made to never have been. Same with Kyousuke when Sayaka wished to heal him. He still had been injured, with the doctors even being confused about how he was suddenly better. The past wasn't changed so that he had never been in the hospital. He explicitly still had been.
 
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