Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[X] The Narrator

The argument about Kyousuke has prompted me to do some thinking, and I've come to some conclusions.

Kyousuke defines himself entirely by his ability with the violin. He cannot seem to understand the idea of somebody liking him for himself instead of his abilities. This leads to him dedicating himself to his music, to the detriment of his relationships with others, because to him, that's why they like him in the first place. It's possible that Kyousuke's thought process in regards to relationships is "I'm good a violin --> people like me because of that --> my girlfriend likes me because of that --> keep practicing to be good at violin --> people keep liking me."

This may also have had an impact on Sayaka. Aura pointed out on Discord that Sayaka grew up admiring a boy who put all of his self-worth in his talent with the violin. This idea of basing self-worth on skill may carry over to Sayaka as well. And since she currently sees herself as lacking in skill, she'd have a rather low opinion of herself in general.

Some other thoughts:
Helping Kyousuke with his own issues could also be very good for Sayaka/Hitomi. Actually getting him to see that there's more to life than playing a violin would make him a better boyfriend to whoever he ends up with, because then he'd actually value the relationship.

TL;DR: Kyousuke probably has just as many issues as the other characters, and Sayaka's issues maybe related to his.

Discord conversation about the topic here.

Onmur said:

OK... I'm trying to include good points everyone's been bringing up?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Mind if I put offering Sayaka something concrete to do first and change it up a bit? Because I think it's extremely important to offer Sayaka something she can help us on and something she can start trying to help with now. (and I think @TotalTemplar03's point only adds to that) And if she doesn't find one option attractive, she may like another.


[X] Reach out to Sayaka. Hugs as appropriate.

[X] She'll have her time to shine. We can't handle everything, much as we wish otherwise speaking of which...
[X] Offer Sayaka a list of projects and upcoming problems that you're working on and can actually use help with. The coming influx of magical girls, potentials we can't find time to contact, the fact that we're looking to make a less witchy and limited private communication option than we have now, etc.
-[X] Help her bounce around ideas if she takes interest in any of them.

[X] Give her perspective on how most new Magical Girls would be doing in her stead. Like Ono. Ugh.
-[X] That's part of why we worry so much... but really? Sayaka is very strong already. And we still worry, just like we worry about Mami, and Homura, everyone. Because what we're doing is dangerous, and they're our friends. We don't want to lose anyone.
-[X] Sayaka Wished to help us knowing what it meant. That means a lot to us.

[X] Transform stress into happiness through mumihugs.
[X] Karaoke!
-[X] Have a duet with Mami!

Conjured Blade said:

Fair but there's a difference between willingness to die for somebody and willingness to risk eternal damnation for them.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Knowledge vs full knowledge. Regardless Sayaka knew going into making a wish that she was putting her soul into a rock, and escalating the danger in her life considerably - which is the point of bringing it up. She allowed her soul to be manipulated in order to get a wish - a wish that could do almost anything from stopping time to allowing for teleportation. What does she wish for though? To help her friends.

Edit: also going to say I think trying to give some concrete 'thing' or example or 'your already strong' is just platitudes. Sayaka will not be wholly convinced of her worth until she is actually 'useful'

We should recognize and accept that but tell her we have faith that she will do fine when her moment comes.

[X] Reach out to Sayaka. Hugs as appropriate.

[X] She'll have her time to shine. We can't handle everything, much as we wish otherwise speaking of which...
[X] Offer Sayaka a list of projects and upcoming problems that you're working on and can actually use help with. The coming influx of magical girls, potentials we can't find time to contact, the fact that we're looking to make a less witchy and limited private communication option than we have now, etc.
-[X] Help her bounce around ideas if she takes interest in any of them.

[X] Give her perspective on how most new Magical Girls would be doing in her stead. Like Ono. Ugh.
-[X] That's part of why we worry so much... but really? Sayaka is very strong already. And we still worry, just like we worry about Mami, and Homura, everyone. Because what we're doing is dangerous, and they're our friends. We don't want to lose anyone.
-[X] Sayaka Wished to help us knowing what it meant. That means a lot to us.

[X] Transform stress into happiness through mumihugs.
[X] Karaoke!
-[X] Have a duet with Mami!

[X] Conjured Blade

Seems to combine all the good ideas into one vote. I gotta get to bed though so I can't read obsessively.

DB_Explorer said:

Note: Alas I wanted to work a line from Firefly from Shepard - I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Doesn't really fit in this context, but there's another line of Shepard's that could have been applied to Kirika in other timelines: "Someone like that believes hard, kills and never asks why."

I'm not enthused about throwing 'the list' at Sayaka. We've been flying for a while now, so we might not have long, and really, just telling Sayaka we need to work on a bunch of things probably won't work well?
By 'the list' I don't mean THE LIST.
I know I would just stare blankly.

Yeah, if Sayaka is feeling inadequate, then I'm not sure that throwing a list of problems at her is the best way to fix that. Seems like a good way to make her feel even more overwhelmed.

[X] Reach out to Sayaka. Hugs as appropriate.

[X] Give her perspective on how most new Magical Girls would be doing in her stead. Like Ono. Ugh.
-[X] That's part of why we worry so much... but really? Sayaka is very strong already. And we still worry, just like we worry about Mami, and Homura, everyone. Because what we're doing is dangerous, and they're our friends. We don't want to lose anyone.
-[X] Sayaka Wished to help us knowing what it meant. That means a lot to us.
-[X] She'll have her time to shine. We can't handle everything, much as we wish otherwise.

[X] On that note, we're gonna need lots of help with the influx of Magical Girls we'll have soon.
-[X] Ask her to practise that Cloning power. Note social/combat advantadges if necessary.

[X] Transform stress into happiness through mumihugs.
[X] Karaoke!
-[X] Have a duet with Mami!

@Onmur nothing about future hunts? Could be something we suggest as part of perspective on other novices maybe. Like "if you don't believe me, we can arrange a witch hunt with X for some perspective".

The Narrator said:

Doesn't really fit in this context, but there's another line of Shepard's that could have been applied to Kirika in other timelines: "Someone like that believes hard, kills and never asks why."

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It was in my head as I was writing my idea since to a degree the crux of my idea is Sabrina telling Sayaka that she has faith in Sayaka, in that when push comes to shove she will bring something to the table and she will help them and will not be a burden. Sabrina believes that because Sayaka took the mantle of Puella Magi knowing it was not like anime and spent her wish on helping her friends.

So in this case the belief is on Sabrina's side and the thing is friendship... and love maybe I mean Sabrina IS a magical girl.

The Narrator said:

Yeah, if Sayaka is feeling inadequate, then I'm not sure that throwing a list of problems at her is the best way to fix that. Seems like a good way to make her feel even more overwhelmed.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Onmur said:

I'm not enthused about throwing 'the list' at Sayaka. We've been flying for a while now, so we might not have long, and really, just telling Sayaka we need to work on a bunch of things probably won't work well?
By 'the list' I don't mean THE LIST.
I know I would just stare blankly.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

How about just one then? Construction, electromagnets, cloning, etc?

So, I wrote a thing. Not semi-canon (sadly), but hopefully you guys will like it all the same.

----
Ruminations and Reflections: Through Violet Eyes



Strange.

Everything about this loop is strange.

Throughout the dozens and dozens of loops, you've noticed trends. Some of them hold more strongly than others.

Sayaka always contracts. Mami always wants Madoka to contract. Without Mami around, Sayaka tends to deteriorate and burn herself out. If Mami dies, Kyouko moves in. When one of them falls, the rest often fall like dominoes.

There are anomalies, of course. Those tend to be the loops where you're at your most hopeful…and, ultimately, your most disappointed.

But the one trend you've noticed most is how things always seem to just…fall apart. One unavoidable mistake begets another mistake, and you just can't prevent them all. Sayaka is often the point of failure, but you don't hold any negative feelings towards her. How could you? Your entire existence revolves around trying to find some way to save a good person from her seemingly doomed fate. If it weren't already everything you could do just to try and save Madoka, you'd want to save Sayaka, too. You know how much losing Sayaka hurts her, after all. How much it hurts her to hear that Sayaka is a lost cause, that she can't be saved. Deep down, you know that it hurts you to say it to her—after all, if any one person can be a lost cause, impossible to save, then that means that Madoka might be one such person, too. And you refuse to admit that. You refuse to acknowledge it.

But that doesn't mean that you aren't half-expecting things to go wrong at every turn. You're not surprised when things fall apart, bit by bit, with you helpless to stem the tide. Sayaka or Mami learning the truth about Soul Gems, giving up on themselves, becoming reckless and almost wanting to die. Kyouko being desperate to save Sayaka even after she becomes a Witch, no matter how much you try to tell her that it's pointless. Mami's animosity towards you turning Sayaka against you, too. Needing the help of them all, even though you have to oppose Mami because she wants Madoka to contract, even though reconciling Mami and Kyouko without Sayaka being dead seems all but impossible. Mami finding out the truth behind Witches and breaking utterly.

This loop is different.

Almost from the start, everything was different, even when it wasn't. Mami was initially hostile towards you, but Sabrina somehow bridged the gap between you, encouraging Mami to see you in a different light. Guiding you through the little gestures and decisions that you never really understood, somehow proving to Mami that you could first be allies, then friends. Oriko returned as a threat once more, to your horror and fear, but this time, you managed to get ahead of her, thanks to the kind of cooperation and teamwork you wouldn't have thought of before. And then…

You're used to not being understood. In many ways, it's important that you aren't—the less others understand you, the less Kyubey understands you, and the less he can outmaneuver you. (Or so you think, anyway. You haven't been very sure about your past actions, lately.) But this time, for practically the first time, someone does understand you, someone does know what you've been through, what you are up against, what your fears are, what you need. Someone does tell you that you are a good person, that you are worth something, that you deserve better, that you aren't alone in your struggle. You didn't realize, until much later, how much you needed to hear those words.

Madoka had always implicitly believed in you, implicitly cared about you, but she had almost never known enough to say it explicitly. She's precious to you; she's everything to you, but ever since you promised to her that you wouldn't let her be tricked into a doomed fate, you've had to rely entirely on yourself. And time and time again, you failed her. Without her help, without her sacrifice, you just couldn't face the oncoming storm and succeed. You need her help to save her, but you can't save her if you accept her help.

But now…Sabrina changes everything. She has the power to beat Walpurgisnacht without sacrificing herself. That alone would have been enough to give you hope—your goal, aside from keeping Madoka from contracting, would have been to get Sabrina as an ally against Walpurgisnacht. A simple matter of trial and error until you found out how to reliably enlist her aid. But she's so much more than that.

She has your back. She makes mistakes, but she recognizes them and strives to correct them, instead of spiraling into conflict and despair. You can depend on her. Even when she disagrees with you, she'll still follow your lead—something that amazes you and touches you, even through your hardened, jaded heart. She trusts you, cares about you, and supports you. She gives you hugs, displays more concern for your health than you do, and helps other people understand you.

At times, you feel inadequate. You've had countless loops trying things your way, but Sabrina's first try is far more successful than any attempt you've made. Sabrina somehow navigates the narrow path between preventing Madoka from contracting and being Mami's friend. She carries Mami through the revelations about Soul Gems and Kyubey that would normally break her. She managed to convince Oriko to surrender and stay under house arrest. She waded neck-deep into a messy war and emerged victorious without killing anyone, or even making any real enemies. She gets along well with Kyouko and Masami and Hiroko, even managing to save the latter two. She wasn't able to prevent Sayaka from contracting, but rather than the start of things falling apart as you were expecting, Sayaka's contracting is accepted without incident, and Sayaka herself is accepting help, guidance, and even the truth about Soul Gems without giving up on herself. Even when things go wrong, they don't fall apart.

And then…then she tells you that she thinks she owes her existence to you and Madoka. To your looping, to her Wish. The thought that something good and new could come out of your endless, seemingly-futile struggles is entirely unexpected, something that you are utterly unprepared for. That she (half-jokingly? You can't really tell) called you and Madoka her mothers just throws you further off-balance. As bizarre as the notion is, you can't help but secretly find it pleasing—you'd never really entertained the idea that you and Madoka would have a future together, but now that she's pointed it out, you can't unsee it. Sabrina does feel like some odd combination of you and Madoka. Like Madoka, she cares about everyone, wants to save everyone, wants to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Like you, she's willing to do what is necessary to succeed where it is most important, she knows how dangerous this world truly is, and she's willing to harden herself in the face of danger and strife.

She assures you that she'd never have gotten this far without your help. She unhesitatingly accepts your insistence on watching over Madoka, even throughout the night, and supports you how she can. She goes around, changing things, building bridges, putting out fires, experimenting with new ideas and new abilities. Whereas, in previous loops, you had to try and juggle everything (and fail), this time, you can focus on protecting Madoka. You can sleep at someone else's place and be assured in your safety and the knowledge that Madoka is effectively a second away from having several magical girls being by her side, ready to help.

Everything is different, even when it isn't. You're more…present in this loop than you have been in any loops beyond the first few. You're on good terms with almost everyone—something so novel that you're still trying to wrap your head around it, sometimes. You've stayed at Madoka's home and Mami's home as a guest and a friend. You've gone on a picnic with Madoka and all of her friends—your friends, too, you can imagine Sabrina saying. When a threat presents itself, you respond together, as a team, like it's completely natural. Sayaka contracted, but you feel like she might not be a ticking time bomb, and she even looks up to you, wonder of wonders.

And now, magical girls from all over are coming to Mitakihara, either to visit or to immigrate. It worries you—an endless supply of new dangers, new potential threats to Madoka and your allies, and so many potential problems for Sabrina to spread herself too thinly in trying to deal with. But it also gives you some hope—if even half of them decide to stay and fight Walpurgisnacht alongside you, your chances of victory will be better than you had ever thought possible.

You're not a fool. You haven't learned nothing in this endless hell. Even when things seem like they're better than they've ever been before, it can always be cruelly snatched away from you at the last moment. Oriko taught you that lesson well. Walpurgisnacht has ensured that you never, ever forget it.

You're so afraid. Allowing yourself to hope is the hardest thing. You want to give in to hope; the temptation is strong. To feel like you can be happy again, like you can truly come out of the shell that's been clamped tightly around you for so long that you've forgotten what it's like to be outside of it.

But you know where that path leads. Mami experienced it firsthand in the previous loop, eaten alive by the sweets Witch when she was at the happiest and most relieved she'd felt in a long time. One moment of inattentiveness, one moment of carelessness, is all it takes to lose everything.

You still worry every time she goes to Oriko's house, where she's in the presence of a magical girl who is perhaps the best counter to her abilities and another magical girl who can see the future. She's not helpless without her Grief control, but she's weak, mortal without it, and alone at Oriko's, she's outnumbered, too. Ordinarily, you'd forbid her from going there without you. And you could—she wouldn't like it, but if you insisted, she'd do it, even for no other reason than to make you feel more at ease. But you don't, because you actually have faith in her—which always surprises you, because you'd long since felt like you'd lost faith in anything. You remember Madoka's Wish. You remember Sabrina's words. She isn't stupid. She knows the danger; you've repeatedly reminded her of it. She knows what's at stake. She knows how you feel about it. And she knows them, like she knew you before you even met for the first time.

She managed to convince Oriko to surrender and accept her terms, even after Oriko had been stubbornly determined to die. She managed to enlist Kirika's and Oriko's help in the war, to great effect. And as much as you hate to admit it, she did warn you about Sayaka's life being in danger from a Witch when none of you had any idea about the threat. Sure, she could very well have engineered it in such a way that she used the opportunity to make Sabrina and Mami trust her, but if she wanted to sabotage Sabrina's efforts, letting Sayaka die would have done more. You're not sure if Oriko is telling the truth or not about losing her precognition, but even if it's a lie, it means that she can no longer lead Sabrina into a trap through lying about her predictions. If it's part of a plan, you can't see how it could possibly work better than the alternatives. Certainly, she could have just ambushed Sabrina in her home with Kirika's help, taking Sabrina out too quickly for her to call for help.

You're still terrified of her. Terrified that she might stab you in the back at just the wrong moment, having been planning for it from the start. You can never forget that moment when the Barrier faded, and you thought you'd won, that you had a better chance in this loop than you'd ever had before, only to hear Sayaka's wail, only to see Madoka's lifeless eyes, only to realize that Oriko had won. You'd actually screamed in that loop. At yourself, at the world, at the cruelty of it all.

And you haven't forgotten about this 'Feathers'. A completely new threat, one you don't even understand, one that seems entirely unlike anything you've ever faced or heard of before. It feels like the universe is playing its cruel tricks on you again, giving you hope like never before with Sabrina, only to threaten to take it all away with something mysterious and incomprehensible.

But Sabrina doesn't despair. She doesn't lose any hope. She says you'll beat it, and anything that comes after it. She's not just blustering, either. She really believes it. And since she knows what you've gone through, knows what you've been up against, understands the seeming impossibility of what Feathers had somehow almost pulled off with Sayaka, you know she's not just overconfident or deluding herself.

Even after Walpurgisnacht is dead, dangers will remain. Sabrina knows that. But…she somehow manages it. She cares and feels and hopes and expresses herself openly all the time, and she's still been on top of things virtually every step of the way.

You wonder if you can follow her example. It's incredibly difficult—like exercising a muscle you never knew you had—and the steps you take are small and tentative. At times, you're not sure you trust yourself to maintain enough vigilance and wariness while taking those steps. But you remember her smile, her hugs, her words, her encouragement. She doesn't doubt you, and she assures you that she's not going to let herself fall for that trap. She assures you that you are no longer alone in your mission. That's never happened to you before. It evokes strange feelings in you, ones that you can't properly identify alongside ones that you can, but had almost forgotten.

This loop is strange. Different. New.

But Sabrina is showing you that different can be good.

So you'll try.

And maybe…just maybe…this time will be the one. That you'll finally exit this endless maze, this endless hell, and find the sun shining brightly on the other side.

Taking a deep breath, you slowly push your musings aside. For now, you've got a daunting challenge awaiting you, one you've never faced before:

Karaoke.

OK have to go to bed still don't like the other voting options due to having... IDK... lists of things Sayaka could do? Revised version of my last vote:

[X] Hug Sayaka
- [X] Apologize about how your no good at helping with this type of stuff... really you and social have issues with each other.
- [X]I cannot make you believe you are useful Sayaka. I can assure you and assuage your doubts all day. I can list everything you can do, and could do and explain how much better your doing then most new girls - I could make graphs if you wanted to, in color. In the end though the choice of belief is with you. But let me tell you something, while it may be true that we can't tell with surety how useful, how great or how well you will act until that moment comes when the chips are down and everything balances on your actions. I don't think, I don't believe you will have an issue in that moment because you took on this mantle of Puella Magi knowing about its costs, its truths and when you offered up your soul for a wish you did not wish for money, or power - you wished to help your friends. That is why I believe you are and will be 'useful' Sayaka, because you are a good person, and a good friend and most puella magi would take a good friend in this line of work over all the combat support in the world.
- [X] Now... Karaoke
- [X] With Mami hugs

Onmur said:

I'm not enthused about throwing the list at Sayaka. We've been flying for a while now, so we might not have long, and really, just telling Sayaka we need to work on a bunch of things probably won't work well?

I know I would just stare blankly.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The thing is, we've tried the uplifting speech and, while it got some good responses, it really doesn't appear to have addressed anything lasting. Beyond that, Firn says that Sayaka's response to "You can do things" is gonna be "Do what?" and we have the supposition that from Aura and Total Templar that Sayaka's issues revolve around her skills.

So the natural response is to address the need to be skillful and/or the focus on immediately doing things to be useful by giving her methods she can use to be useful.

I'd like to let her pick between one of three broad options but, if you're concerned, it can be limited down to the one you suggested one and go into the ways to accomplishing that. Though if we're worried about time issues that's even more reason to put this first. It really is the most important thing here.

Also, it occurs to me that we might be able to fit in a metabomb/ANGERU/Rebellion reference that also works as just a topical joke and shouldn't hurt anything.

[X] Reach out to Sayaka. Hugs as appropriate.

[X] She'll have her time to shine. We can't handle everything, much as we wish otherwise. Speaking of which...
[X] We're gonna need lots of help preparing for and dealing with the influx of Magical Girls we'll have soon to name just one problem she could help with.
-[X] In jest: Alternatively, she can help us and Mami figure out how to fight witches with a railway gun.*
-[X] Help her bounce around ideas if she takes interest.

[X] Give her perspective on how most new Magical Girls would be doing in her stead. Like Ono. Ugh.
-[X] That's part of why we worry so much... but really? Sayaka is very strong already. And we still worry, just like we worry about Mami, and Homura, everyone. Because what we're doing is dangerous, and they're our friends. We don't want to lose anyone.
-[X] Sayaka Wished to help us knowing what it meant. That means a lot to us.

[X] Transform stress into happiness through mumihugs.
[X] Karaoke!
-[X] Have a duet with Mami!

*The sad fact is that Mami and Sabrina alone would only ever be able to make naval guns. We're a ship after all.

[x]The Phoenixian

Honestly, I don't much like the "your time will come" approach. It's going to come off more like platitudes. Teenagers are terrible at thinking long term. They're always hearing about how "someday" they're going to be able to do the thing they want to do. "Someday" is never soon enough for them.

That's why I felt the important things to convey to her were:
-She's actually pretty damn good now.
-We don't worry because she's weaker than the others. We worry because we care. And we worry about everyone else, too.
-We're vulnerable and flawed and human and no better than her so she doesn't need to look up to us as some ideal to measure herself against.

And revealing the last one also demonstrates that we're placing a lot of trust in her, rather than merely saying we do.

... OK so I've been busy most of the day, and I haven't actually caught up with the thread yet, but yes, voting may be considered open. My bad on the voting hours.

The Narrator said:

Honestly, I don't much like the "your time will come" approach. It's going to come off more like platitudes. Teenagers are terrible at thinking long term. They're always hearing about how "someday" they're going to be able to do the thing they want to do. "Someday" is never soon enough for them.

That's why I felt the important things to convey to her were:
-She's actually pretty damn good now.
-We don't worry because she's weaker than the others. We worry because we care. And we worry about everyone else, too.
-We're vulnerable and flawed and human and no better than her so she doesn't need to look up to us as some ideal to measure herself against.

And revealing the last one also demonstrates that we're placing a lot of trust in her, rather than merely saying we do.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Fully agreed. Only thing I'd add is that she might not feel like she's contributing much because there hasn't been a crisis since she contracted, but Mitakihara is about to be flooded with traumatized meguca, and there's a giant, city-destroying Witch on the horizon. It's the calm before the storm, so she should make the most of it while she can.

[k]Don't believe in yourself, believe in the Brina that believes in you!

Oh, Ruby.

[x] The Narrator

I just don't think telling Sayaka a list of things she is good at or she could do will help. We just did that. My vote was less 'your time will come' and more 'I believe in you' since if does not think she is useful right now all the examples in the world may not help her.

Sabrina being Sabrina means Sayaka is expecting Sabrina to tell her she is useful. It can be internalized as Sabrina just being nice. The idea of 'I believe in you' type paired with a 'someday your time will come' was for thr latter to provide some context for the former.

What she does now is enough, what she will be able to do in the future is more then enough and being a friend to the girls made her 'useful' before the contracted and is still a great asset now. If she can't belive that all the facts in the world will not sway her.

Song ideas for Karaoke, Hakuna Matata, Stand my Ground, and get Sayaka to sing "Part of your World"

[X] Reach out to Sayaka. Hugs as appropriate.
[X] We'll believe in her, until she can learn to believe in herself.
[X] Sayaka Wished to help us knowing what it meant. That means a lot to us.
-[X] Ask if she wants some perspective on how most new Magical Girls actually are. Like Ono. Ugh.
-[X] Apologize for being a worrywart. But what you're all doing is dangerous, and they're our friends. We don't want to lose anyone.
[X] By the way, we're gonna need lots of help with the influx of Magical Girls we'll have soon.
-[X] Ask her to practise that Cloning power. Note social/combat advantadges if necessary.
[X] Transform stress into happiness through mumihugs.
[X] Karaoke!
-[X] Have a duet with Mami.

Conjured Blade said:

How about just one then? Construction, electromagnets, cloning, etc?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I did put cloning on the vote.