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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Sucal said:
Damn!

Now if only there had been someone who had previously argued that we should leave a blank 'buffer' action so we can avoid these types of situations in the future.

Would have had to be a devilishly handsome individual with a big ass clock and an excellent choice in Whiskey!
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Shame we don't know anyone like that.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Yammar stares back at you, impassive. And then, at last, he nods, dropping out of his transformation. "...better. You should have led with that." He turns away from Lady Vegeta completely and walks past you to the chairs set up on the platform. "Always bear in mind who you're speaking to, young Scion. Your second point was dead weight, and your first relied on the assumption that I'm not one of the Faithful. As you grow wiser, you'll learn that both are to be avoided. And while the victor in a contest between us would by no means be certain, the mere threat of force at our level is enough to deter quite a bit of poor behavior."

Not to mention the appearance of authority, he say in your mind. Somebody needed to take this rabble in hand. I'm not about to disrupt your control over them. I must grudgingly admit that it was well done.
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I dunno if I've said this before, but my personal vision of Yammar is Tywin. Blonde and all.
 
[x] Fuck. Dandeer. You've tiptoed around her for long enough. Her son has ki, and he's on-camera as somebody who helped take Murk down. You have all the justification you need to teach him how to fight with ki. Teach Jaron, and damn Dandeer's expressed feelings on the matter.

Because fuck dandeer
 
I've been thinking about our plans to rediscover lost techniques (Perfect Multiform, Spirt Bomb, there might be others?) and I kind of regret not pushing for double Seer training. If we can get to the point where we can reliably shoot for a vision of the past, being able to see the techniques in use would be invaluable.
 
Ugggh, I don't have time to reply to everyone who posted since I went to sleep - I have to leave and go to my second day of work.

Agreeing to six days in a row so that I can get a decent paycheck is going to suckkkkk...


BUT

I've seen a lot of arguments saying that we should talk to Dandeer without Jaron in the room, and I feel that this is a mistake.

Jaron might be terrible at communicating, but this is something that he needs to be in the room for, because it is about him and the things that he is going to do.

His mother may be a good ways gone, but she is cracked and losing her mind, not dumb.

We are smart enough to point out that should she say No he is going to go and do it anyways. Jaron is a good person much like his brother. And he doesn't have it in him to stand back when he has the power to help people.

Should she say no, she needs to be told that more than likely he will go off and do things on his own. And if he does that, you are not skilled enough to be able to see what he is doing at all times. There is a chance that he will get himself killed trying to do something that he does not have the skill to accomplish.

We HAVE to have this discussion because if we train him without speaking with her, then this is going to get Dandeer up in arms, and that will put the ENTIRE CONSPIRACY at risk.

We cannot do this in front of a crowd, but that would come across to her as intentionally antagonistic and manipulative. Funny thing is that that would be.

We are going to approach her at her home. And If I had my say we would be the most polite about it, not even entering the home unless she gives permission.

This is one of the last 'Safe' places that Dandeer has, and she is losing everything that she has... we need to be careful and kind to her because she is becoming fragile.

But we must also be straight forward and direct. She's not so far gone that she cannot handle it.

We need to show her respect, but at the same time, she is acting in a way that is endangering her sons. That is not okay. And we need to make sure that she understands the reprecussions of her actions.

She has lost her people.
She has lost her religion.
If she holds her son back like this... He could destroy the planet.
If she holds her son back like this... he could be killed trying to help people because HE IS A GOOD PERSON

We are not here to hurt her. We are not here to fight her. We are here because regardless of who Dandeer is and what she has done, we have come to care for Jaron, just as we did for his older brother.

We do this because we care about him... and we do this because he cares about his mother.

How we feel about Dandeer is not important. How she feels about us is just an unimportant. What matters here is her son.

This leaves the control of the situation in Dandeer's hands, and it gives her the initiative.

This is important so that she doesn't feel backed into a corner and lash out.

Then again, to be perfectly honest, I feel that if she were to lash out - that would be fine too. Dandeer lashing out and attacking us?

We can contact Dad. He can arrive. And we can then make our case not only for the fact that Jaron needs training to Dad, but also argue that Dandeer has shown herself unable and unwilling to properly care for her son, and that he needs to be taken in by someone else.

The person who I would argue most in that situation would be out Grandmother, but honestly - We would be completely in the right to point out to Dad that no matter what he thinks of the man, no matter how much he gets angry... the person who has the actual RIGHT to care for his grandson is Yamma.

And that puts Jaron in the hands of the Conspiracy, which is an acceptable endgame situation for me.
 
I suggest we don't consult Dandeer.The important thing here is for Jaron not to get killed. Dandeer doesn't want him to fight for fear of him getting killed. If we confront her in private she will say no and Jaron won't train so as to not disappoint her.If we do so publically, it will be obvious it is an attack and she will think we are trying to use her son against her.
 
Know how I feel? I feel like this:

[] There are things going on, that I can't explain yet, that make training you...difficult. If you really want it you are going to have to go to your mom, in front of a large number of your family, and either ask permission or just tell her that you are going to seek training from me and why. Be clear, be honest, and be direct. It's still going to cause a massive firestorm of politics and emotion, but almost every other option is likely to be even worse. If you want advice on how to handle it you can talk to my da and some older members of your family before you face her.
 
Mikeline said:
When exactly did we vote to talk to every parent EXCEPT Dandeer? When exactly did @PoptartProdigy tell us that we would to vote to talk to her specifically, but not the other parents?
Because he told us that he didn't bother with writing that part in the update due to how clear our success was.
If anyone had told me that we would have to vote specifically in order to do something anyone would expect to be included, I would have done so.
We did NOT fuck up, and I refuse to apologize to DANDEER of all people for something we had no control over.
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Okay, deep calming breaths.

We the voters did not screw up; all we voted for was "train the Misfits," with the understanding that this would include Jaron. We voted for no specifics of exactly what she would do and how. Dandeer does not deserve an apology from the quest voters, nor would she understand the meaning of one if she received it.

Kakara, personally, who as a quest protagonist often gets referred to by the word "we" when the quest voters animating her brain speak of her, did in fact screw up. The screwup was very much in character; Kakara loathes Dandeer so much that it's entirely likely for her to think "I should talk to my friends' parents, wait ICK that means talking to Dandeer EW, I'll just ask Jaron if his mother's okay with it." She probably already does so sometimes, given that Jaron regularly attends social gatherings of the Misfits.

Thing is... the fact that we the quest voters didn't screw up doesn't somehow negate the fact that in-story, Kakara screwed up. While it was imprecise of me to refer to Kakara using a "we" and this seems to have caused you considerable anger and frustration, I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make. In-story, IF we concede Dandeer's parental prerogatives over Jaron*, Kakara did in fact make a mistake, of the same category as forgetting to get permission slips from children before taking them on a field trip some of the parents may want to shelter their children from (e.g. the Holocaust Museum, to pick an example from when I was a kid).

*And "if we concede Dandeer's parental prerogatives" is a big if, don't get me wrong! But it's still one we may decide to concede for our own reasons...

Andres110 said:
There is no good reason to ask her. There is no good reason to deny Jaron training. Jaron wants to protect people and we're not going to gate him from doing so because of his bitch of a mother.
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Point of order: is "Jaron might die" a good reason? I mean, Dandeer can go play hopscotch in a minefield for all I care, but fighting an army of trained alien soldiers is dangerous, especially since the maximum power level he seems capable of for now isn't much stronger than that of the aliens' heavy hitters.

Andres110 said:
That will do jack and shit.
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Actually it might do a good deal. Vegetans are collectively outraged at the idea that even in his perma-Masqued form, "Scion Jaffur" is being deprived of access to ki powers, now that normal humans are allowed to study it for themselves. They already viewed the Sealing as a great waste of their Scion's potential, but by vehemently opposing ki training for Jaron, Dandeer is leading them to suspect that she intends that Jaffur never be un-Sealed and never take the throne in his own right. Anything that gives them confirmation of that will offend them greatly.

Basically, we have a lot of opportunity to put political pressure on Dandeer using the fact of just how unpopular "don't train Jaron" and "Jaron can't fight the aliens" is. There may not be a single saiyan alive who supports her in that decision, beyond at most the level of "Well I guess she has a right to do that if she wants? Crapbaskets, that's bad parenting though.. :("

Indeed, the main reason NOT to apply such political pressure is the hope of finally, for once, actually convincing Dandeer of something instead of just treating her like a giant evil slab of Obstacle.

Quest said:
Note that this isn't about training. We're already doing that. The talk would be about Jaron wanting to fight in the alien invasion.

If she doesn't know about the training, we can handle that. We have dad's support on that and can easily talk our way out of that. Jaron will definitely be getting training. The issue here here is Jaron's wish to fight.
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This. Even Dandeer's going to admit that if Jaron has enough ki, personally, to blow up the planet, Jaron needs some training, if only to not blow up the planet.

Dandeer has a strong and perhaps misplaced desire to protect Jaron, though. I mean... hell, at this point every living Exile is a descendant of Chi-Chi; to some extent the inner "NO YOU GO BACK TO YOUR BOOKS!" reflex is the inheritance of every saiyan mother. :p

While we can probably agree Chi-Chi was wrong to oppose Gohan's training given that the world might be destroyed if Gohan wasn't fit to fight for it, taking Gohan with it... Well, her views are at least somewhat comprehensible. She was being a parody, but a sympathetic one in some respects.

And yes, there are HUGE differences between Chi-Chi and Dandeer and I know Dandeer did terrible things and mind-controlled Jaffur et cetera. Just... try to step back from that long enough to acknowledge that a person can be a mind-controlling (literal) witch AND an overprotective mother at the same time.
 
So the more I think about things, the more I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. This is I think the first conversation we had with him alone on-screen, and... what do people think about bringing Jaron into our conspiracy?

Like, we should definitely talk to his mom about things but that's an entire different issue. I'm thinking of the best way to do this, but how about we break it to Jaron that his power isn't some fluke and that his mother is actually part of our clans, and knows about ki. Also how it's a difficult political situation and because of that his mother wants her family out of the whole thing.

Basically explain the whole thing to him in a way he can understand without directly implicating his mother, and just making it a disaster we can't expand on much that makes Doreen over-protective. Tell him that our parents are close friends and that we're trying to make her let him, but so far we've only gotten our dad to support training him in control because he suddenly got such strong ki.

This lets us increase our relationship with him as well, and we can probably convince him with our communication score and bonuses. Main thing is if he can keep it a secret.

Any thoughts? .....Also we really need to train deceit.

EDIT: I don't want to directly tell him everything because telling him what Dandeer did will alienate him, unless he figure it out himself and the rest kinda gets into the I'm-not-real drama which I don't think we should get into.
 
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Bakkasama said:
I suggest we don't consult Dandeer.The important thing here is for Jaron not to get killed. Dandeer doesn't want him to fight for fear of him getting killed. If we confront her in private she will say no and Jaron won't train so as to not disappoint her.If we do so publically, it will be obvious it is an attack and she will think we are trying to use her son against her.
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Dandeer doesn't want him to learn how to fight because she is a traumatized battered woman who is frightened by his becoming a man and the associated resemblances to the one who traumatized her. She is far more likely to react to, "he's going to fight either way", with, "the seal needs adjusting", or even just, "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU", as she is to suddenly get over her PTSD. His growing into a powerful warrior is an existential threat to the perfect little family she has crafted, and that is at least as frightening to her as a deniable risk that he'll get himself killed doing it anyways over her best efforts.

We don't need another half-trained warrior that badly right now. He shouldn't be allowed to fight either way. There's no reason to confront her over something we don't need and she is extremely likely to freak out about.
 
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Bakkasama said:
By the way, was the punching the ground bit a Dr. Slump reference? The two traditional feats of strenght of Arale are splitting the earth in two by punching it and destroying the moon by throwing a rock at it (I think they happen three or four times each in the manga).
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Never read Slump, actually.
Quest said:
Very interesting use of IT. He basically pulled a Tobi.

Also @PoptartProdigy Typo. Should be held.:p

By the way, what does something being wasteful of ki actually mean? I saw this opinion from Berra several times and you mentioned that's why Kakara doesn't use TK to make her life easier. What does that stuff actually take affect especially as we don't actually see that effect OOC.
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It's inefficient and uses a lot compared to manually restraining them. He used it because he didn't want to risk accidentally injuring them.
fictionfan said:
@PoptartProdigy : Would it be possible for us to switch out an action? It is becoming clear that this seal business might come to a head this year. We might want to spend an action to break it as soon as Jaffur gets a handle on magic.
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Nope. Otherwise, why bother with the action economy at all?
 
This is a mistake. She will burn the entire world before she allows anything that even hints at her little boy beginning to turn into his father. The only question is how badly she will freak out.
 
[X] Fuck. Dandeer. You've tiptoed around her for long enough. Her son has ki, and he's on-camera as somebody who helped take Murk down. You have all the justification you need to teach him how to fight with ki. Teach Jaron, and damn Dandeer's expressed feelings on the matter.

Because I want nothing to do with the hot mess that is Dandeer.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I like action economies too, but you just like it because you like watching us struggle to cover everything we need to with what, preparing for 3 crises oncoming now? 4 if you don't fold preparing for the Dragon into preparing for the fleet?

You're a sadist, Poptart.
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Well, I also like it because it helps to keep long-term plans organized in a way that makes bookkeeping far easier on both the player base and myself, and provides a concrete measure of Kakara's motivation and self-discipline, but yes, also because I'm a sadist. :D
 
I am for training him without talking toDandeer. Making him our disciple is a good way to win his trust, which is good because a) he is obviously keeping secrets b) it will make operation prison break easier and c) it gives us more influence over our fellow scion's brother. If he is determined enough to learn without his mother's permission (and he is different than the other misfits sans maya in that he has to learn to control his ki) then more power to him and it will make him more likely to disobey her and follow our lead in the future.

Besides, it looks like some of Jaffur's talent is leaking and Jaffur was likely the most promising warrior since the exile began. He is going to learn fast.
 
[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.

Kakara screwed up, and we need to own it. That's what it means to be the better person.

Fuck Dandeer.

Also, I'm seeing this quest ending with Kakara as the Vegetan Lord, Mato as the Gokun Lord, and a pair of completely normal Scions...ruling over a good portion of the Galaxy. Benevolently, of course.
 
[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
 
We should probably also take into account that if we agree to this, we're basically committing to spending actions for no real gain - Jaffur knows more about fighting than we do, and Jaron's fighting skill frankly doesn't matter. I very much doubt Dandeer will let his watchers leave him alone to join the fight, and a single below-par fighter (which is what Jaron will likely still be, by the time the fleet arrives) won't matter anyway considering the Saiyan population is in the thousands.

Or am I misunderstanding, and this won't eat up future actions? @PoptartProdigy , will this fall under regular "training the misfits" actions, or will we have to commit to it beyond that?

EDIT: This won't take extra actions.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
We should probably also take into account that if we agree to this, we're basically committing to spending actions for no real gain - Jaffur knows more about fighting than we do, and Jaron's fighting skill frankly doesn't matter. I very much doubt Dandeer will let his watchers leave him alone to join the fight, and a single below-par fighter (which is what Jaron will likely still be, by the time the fleet arrives) won't matter anyway considering the Saiyan population is in the thousands.

Or am I misunderstanding, and this won't eat up future actions? @PoptartProdigy , will this fall under regular "training the misfits" actions, or will we have to commit to it beyond that?
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This falls under training the misfits. Remember, you're already teaching Jaron ki. He's asking if you'll teach him the particulars of combat while you're at it.
 
[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
 
Guys, are you sure asking Dandeer about her long time plan is a good idea?

That sounds like a very good way to make her infuriated beyond belief and set off a good portion of her issues.
 
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