Then we goddamn tried to come to an accord with her.
And if she tries to attack us, magically or otherwise? Then we've got casus belli.
Dragon Ball: After the End
And if she tries to attack us, magically or otherwise? Then we've got casus belli.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I don't expect her to attack us. If we ask her privately she will just say no and stonewall. We get nothing from that.
You think she's going to do anything else if it's public?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If it is public then her reaction has consequences. If she just says No in front of Jaron he is going to wonder why and keep asking and likely find his own ways to train. If she just says no in public then she seems unreasonable and we gain points for being reasonable.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Uh... everyone? if she publicly declares her adamant refusal to allow Jaron to be trained in ki use, it's entirely possible that a crowd of Vegetans will straight-up try to kill her. And she knows this, it's what almost happened last time she did it at the end of Year 4.
The Vegetans are already darkly muttering that Dandeer is basically plotting to rule them forever by keeping the Vegetan Lord and Scion magically imprisoned and abusing her family authority to speak for them. When she came out against letting Jaron have ki training, Dandeer accidentally confirmed those suspicions, whether they're accurate or not.
...
So on the one hand, in front of a Vegetan crowd on this issue, she's under a huge amount of threat to give in, or at least to publicly be seen to give in.
The downside is, we'd be negotiating with a Destructo Disk held to her throat. She'd feel very little obligation to honor any bargains she made, because said bargains wouldn't reflect her own opinions and we wouldn't have convinced her of anything except "Kakara is terrifyingly powerful and willing to endanger my life to get her way." She already knew the first, and the second would if anything undermine any scrap of respect she has for our opinions... Because we DID step up to protect her from Yammar at Second Garenhuld, even if that ended in her excommunication.
...
So it kind of depends. What's our objective here? To obtain publicly acceptable cover for us to continue training Jaron at all costs? Or to at least try to nudge Dandeer a bit closer to a position where she's willing to stand down?
Because if there's a path that leads to Dandeer standing down, either before OR after we put the Senzus' plan into action... It begins with us convincing Dandeer that she's not the only one who cares about her son, and that maybe she isn't the only person in the world who can act correctly to protect her son, and that he genuinely isn't safe or likely to have a good future with access to powers he can't control and can't use to protect himself.
[Personally I also think it begins with us pointing out to Dandeer that the current status quo can't last more than another five years or so, because when Jaron reaches the age of majority the Vegetans' patience with the Sealing will wear out even faster than it has to date]
...
EDIT:
Again, I just want to underline that we need to think about whether our real objective here is short-term or long-term. If we just want to coerce Dandeer into conceding something she very much doesn't want to concede, then threats might work- but Dandeer will be even more inclined to fear and distrust us in future. If we want to convince Dandeer of anything, we really do have to take the chance of engaging with her directly. The worst-case scenario is that she ignores us, and the outcome of that in this case... really isn't that bad, at least in terms of possible bad results that couldn't have happened anyway.
The Vegetans are already darkly muttering that Dandeer is basically plotting to rule them forever by keeping the Vegetan Lord and Scion magically imprisoned and abusing her family authority to speak for them. When she came out against letting Jaron have ki training, Dandeer accidentally confirmed those suspicions, whether they're accurate or not.
...
So on the one hand, in front of a Vegetan crowd on this issue, she's under a huge amount of threat to give in, or at least to publicly be seen to give in.
The downside is, we'd be negotiating with a Destructo Disk held to her throat. She'd feel very little obligation to honor any bargains she made, because said bargains wouldn't reflect her own opinions and we wouldn't have convinced her of anything except "Kakara is terrifyingly powerful and willing to endanger my life to get her way." She already knew the first, and the second would if anything undermine any scrap of respect she has for our opinions... Because we DID step up to protect her from Yammar at Second Garenhuld, even if that ended in her excommunication.
...
So it kind of depends. What's our objective here? To obtain publicly acceptable cover for us to continue training Jaron at all costs? Or to at least try to nudge Dandeer a bit closer to a position where she's willing to stand down?
Because if there's a path that leads to Dandeer standing down, either before OR after we put the Senzus' plan into action... It begins with us convincing Dandeer that she's not the only one who cares about her son, and that maybe she isn't the only person in the world who can act correctly to protect her son, and that he genuinely isn't safe or likely to have a good future with access to powers he can't control and can't use to protect himself.
[Personally I also think it begins with us pointing out to Dandeer that the current status quo can't last more than another five years or so, because when Jaron reaches the age of majority the Vegetans' patience with the Sealing will wear out even faster than it has to date]
...
EDIT:
Again, I just want to underline that we need to think about whether our real objective here is short-term or long-term. If we just want to coerce Dandeer into conceding something she very much doesn't want to concede, then threats might work- but Dandeer will be even more inclined to fear and distrust us in future. If we want to convince Dandeer of anything, we really do have to take the chance of engaging with her directly. The worst-case scenario is that she ignores us, and the outcome of that in this case... really isn't that bad, at least in terms of possible bad results that couldn't have happened anyway.
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Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
We don't want consequences. We like the status quo. It gives us time to prepare and get the Conspiracy in place. And asking her in public isn't reasonable. The Vegetans might take us at face-value, but that's because they hate her. Our dad isn't dumb. He could tell we had multiform, he could tell we're training Maya. He can tell tell that we asked her in public, on purpose.
This, people. You either use this to convince Dandeer that we're on her side or you convince Jaron to stand down. It's not worth letting Jaron fight if we do this without official backing, since it puts him in danger because if he dies, the Vegetans will go absolutely berserk and it will be on our head.
- Location
- Somewhere
No it isn't. We voted to convince their parents to let them train, if Jaron lied to us, its a fuck up on his part. He can apologize to his mother if he feels like doing so.
I adamanly refuse to apologize for something we had no control over.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I am convinced. We should ask her in private there is a chance she might agree or explain herself.
Also it would be nice to ask her what her long term plan is.
[X] Ask Dandeer for permission
-[X]In private
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term.
Also it would be nice to ask her what her long term plan is.
[X] Ask Dandeer for permission
-[X]In private
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term.
We might have to worry about this is we try and ask her nicely in private.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly, if A Cause reaches a point where it's preventing us from using our diplomacy-specced character to diplomance Dandeer into a more reasonable stance, it's time for A Cause to evolve a bit. Protector, and Open-Handed (Armed?) before it, already pointed in the right direction here. As Kakara matures, she should be able to comprehend the idea of being polite to people whose actions she despises, as opposed to hissing and spitting at them.
When it comes to seeking parental permission, that is not doing due diligence. There's a reason schools give out "permission slips" and expect them to be signed by the parents, rather than just trusting the kid to say "yeah, my mom said it was okay."
While we didn't have direct control over Jaron (possibly) lying to his mother, we did have it in our power to communicate with Dandeer directly and prevent this from ever happening. From a strict student-teacher-parent relationship standpoint, that is exactly what we should have done.
...
Now, we can argue that Dandeer's refusal to allow her son to train constitutes a kind of negligence, or that Dandeer is an unfit mother in general. But if we accept, even for the sake of a conversation with Dandeer, even on a provisional basis, that Dandeer actually is Jaron's mother and has parental control over him...
Then we did indeed screw up by not directly talking to Dandeer, the way we directly talked to the parents of Sophie, Gemma, Jennifer, and presumably Maya.
To be fair, we talked directly to all the other parents, as evidenced by the fact that we made (and handily passed) Communications checks with them. Only with Dandeer did we neglect to speak with her directly, instead expecting Jaron to relay the request.
When it comes to seeking parental permission, that is not doing due diligence. There's a reason schools give out "permission slips" and expect them to be signed by the parents, rather than just trusting the kid to say "yeah, my mom said it was okay."
While we didn't have direct control over Jaron (possibly) lying to his mother, we did have it in our power to communicate with Dandeer directly and prevent this from ever happening. From a strict student-teacher-parent relationship standpoint, that is exactly what we should have done.
...
Now, we can argue that Dandeer's refusal to allow her son to train constitutes a kind of negligence, or that Dandeer is an unfit mother in general. But if we accept, even for the sake of a conversation with Dandeer, even on a provisional basis, that Dandeer actually is Jaron's mother and has parental control over him...
Then we did indeed screw up by not directly talking to Dandeer, the way we directly talked to the parents of Sophie, Gemma, Jennifer, and presumably Maya.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm going to echo @fictionfan 's vote, noting that I won't be back to change it for a long time. HOPEFULLY if any critical facts are revealed, we'll get a chance to do something about them.
[X] Ask Dandeer for permission
-[X]In private
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
[X] Ask Dandeer for permission
-[X]In private
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
- Location
- Somewhere
When exactly did we vote to talk to every parent EXCEPT Dandeer? When exactly did @PoptartProdigy tell us that we would to vote to talk to her specifically, but not the other parents? Because he told us that he didn't bother with writing that part in the update due to how clear our success was.
If anyone had told me that we would have to vote specifically in order to do something anyone would expect to be included, I would have done so.
We did NOT fuck up, and I refuse to apologize to DANDEER of all people for something we had no control over.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
[X] Ask Dandeer for permission
-[X]In private
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
Going with this for now. I'll see if I can look through our previous interactions when I have time before I decide on a specific approach.
We have a whole trait that penalizes talking to her, so there was absolutely no chance of that happening if Kakara could avoid it unless we specifically wrote that into the vote.
-[X]In private
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
Going with this for now. I'll see if I can look through our previous interactions when I have time before I decide on a specific approach.
The problem is that Kakara isn't just a player avatar. She is quite explicitly a person with her own views and by default will work according to her views. Whether we apologize or not, it should have occurred to us that we'd be training the Misfits and that that would include Jaron.
We have a whole trait that penalizes talking to her, so there was absolutely no chance of that happening if Kakara could avoid it unless we specifically wrote that into the vote.
- Location
- Australia
[X] Fuck. Dandeer. You've tiptoed around her for long enough. Her son has ki, and he's on-camera as somebody who helped take Murk down. You have all the justification you need to teach him how to fight with ki. Teach Jaron, and damn Dandeer's expressed feelings on the matter.
There is no good reason to ask her. There is no good reason to deny Jaron training. Jaron wants to protect people and we're not going to gate him from doing so because of his bitch of a mother.
There is no good reason to ask her. There is no good reason to deny Jaron training. Jaron wants to protect people and we're not going to gate him from doing so because of his bitch of a mother.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If we we ask her then we can tell Jaron we did and she said no. Then he can put pressure on her.
- Location
- Australia
That's a dumb plan. Your plan relies on Dandeer being persuaded by her Lethal Communication pet child after she has firmly made up her mind after arguing against an Exceptional Communication us.
But that doesn't matter because her opinion doesn't matter. Jaron wants to help people and can. It is not her place to prevent Jaron from doing that nor is it her place from preventing us from helping him do that. Her opinion is irrelevant. I do not like your opinion that we shouldn't train Jaron if Dandeer can't be convinced by us or Jaron.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well if she says no we can mention that during the live interview.
- Location
- Australia
That will do jack and shit.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Calamitous Communication pet child, thank you very much! *Jaron puffs up his chest in pride, but his eyes are darting back and forth nervously*.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Note that this isn't about training. We're already doing that. The talk would be about Jaron wanting to fight in the alien invasion.
If she doesn't know about the training, we can handle that. We have dad's support on that and can easily talk our way out of that. Jaron will definitely be getting training. The issue here here is Jaron's wish to fight.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
So, I had a thought. What if we talked Berra into making a Gokun law regarding family privilege (that would, incidentally, give us more legal leeway)? This would also give him a position of moral superiority and pressure the Vegetans to do the same.
The Vegetans doing so could very well fulfill our plan for us.
The Vegetans doing so could very well fulfill our plan for us.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I do not suggest it. You don't make broad laws to cover an unusual case.
[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
Things are bad. -and getting worse.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
--[X] Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
If the plan is to continue the conspiracy, any sort of confrontation is counterproductive. Kakara having access to Jaron is a critical part of it, so anything which might cause Dandeer to raise her guard or start forbidding contact must be avoided unless there is a really, really good reason for it.