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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Hmm...this thread has lacked an Elsa Maria for far too long. I will amend that...for a time, at least.

[X] Redshirt Army
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Certainly, the fact that Dedolere seems to have a sort of independent agency from Sabrina even when Sabrina is not in the least bit in a grief spiral strongly supports this notion. If Magical Girls directly transform into Witches, then Witches shouldn't exist in a form capable of any kind of agency until the Soul Gem becomes a Grief Seed.
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Homura splits the Law of Cycles off from Madoka. It is obviously possible for different parts of an entity to act independently.

Dedolere is explicitly by word of god fucking with time and possibility. It is completely 100% possible for Dedolere to be future witched-out Sabrina going back in time to screw with herself. This is in fact one of the core proposals of the entire fucking Feathers-is-Dedolere hypothesis.
SaltyWaffles said:
then shouldn't emptying a Grief Seed of all of its Grief have a more pronounced effect than the Seed simply going quiescent, especially over time?
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Why would it? Enchanting a teenage girl doesn't magically turn them into a magical girl. Magical girls can't control Grief. There is some transition going on there that needs to be reversed.

Finally... if we can't dewitch, how is everything fixable?

We haven't even fucking tried dewitching, not in any serious manner. It could be downright trivial once we actually start trying our huge list of hypotheses. We're nowhere near ready to start calling it impossible, and I'm not happy with your defeatist stance on the subject.
 
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Vebyast said:
We haven't even fucking tried dewitching, not in any serious manner. It could be downright trivial once we actually start trying our huge list of hypotheses. We're nowhere near ready to start calling it impossible, and I'm not happy with your defeatist stance on the subject.
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Considering the number of times Sabrina has cleansed a soul gem it is clear that Witches arnt simply grief, it is also clear that when Magical girls become witches their soul gems become grief seeds and physically change form from one to another it is also clear the souls are made up of more then just grief so the idea that control of only a single emotional state/energy will be easy to change is laughable.
the first step you would need would be for someone to manipulate different kinds of emotional energy before dewitching would be on the table. And even then a single fuck-up would reasonable lead to death for who's ever soul were messing with.
Torgamous said:
Being easy to do and being a big deal aren't mutually exclusive. See gem cleansing.
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Only possible because someone specifically wished for it after all if it was easy other people could do it to. :rolleyes:
 
SaltyWaffles said:
You know, the more I think about it...the less I'm convinced that it's possible to turn Grief Seeds back into Soul Gems. Madoka's canon Wish seems to imply that Witches are separate entities from their respective magical girls. She wishes to remove Witches from existence before they can be born. Perhaps it's just a case of wording versus intent, but what if it isn't?
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Mm, no. Witches are the same as the Magical Girl. This is made unambiguously apparent in Rebellion with Homura, and the entire point of the Law of Cycles!Girls being able to control their Witch selves is because they achieved a form of enlightenment that let them transcend the hope/despair dualism, in Sayaka's own words.

We know, however, that a single soul can function as two consciousnesses, in two bodies. Thanks, Wraith Arc.

Certainly, the fact that Dedolere seems to have a sort of independent agency from Sabrina even when Sabrina is not in the least bit in a grief spiral strongly supports this notion. If Magical Girls directly transform into Witches, then Witches shouldn't exist in a form capable of any kind of agency until the Soul Gem becomes a Grief Seed.
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Split Personality tropes. Also Dedolere might be working from the future or another dimension.

Mechanics-wise, if it were possible to transform a Grief Seed into a Soul Gem, then shouldn't emptying a Grief Seed of all of its Grief have a more pronounced effect than the Seed simply going quiescent, especially over time? Shouldn't an empty Grief Seed respond to magic being infused into it, rather than being completely unaffected by it? The closest we've come to seeing any change is the fact that Clear Seeds behave like some sort of intermediate point between a Soul Gem and a Grief Seed when it comes to grief transfer (will take grief from a Soul Gem, will relinquish grief to a Grief Seed)--but even the quiescent part seems to only apply to some Clear Seeds (I assume the ones that come from Witches born from familiars are the ones that remain hungry for Grief). Speaking of which, did we actually give away Hildegarde? Isn't that a big mistake, since it was our pet project?
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Cleansing Homura's Soul Gem doesn't cure her psychological traumas regarding the loops, her failures, Madoka, etcetera. Same principle here.

Regardless, the fact that a Soul Gem seems to undergo some kind of permanent transformation into a Grief Seed (such that even its barest "core" changes) seems indicative of the potential fact that transforming into a Witch is permanent. A soul itself changing so drastically doesn't seem like it would be reversible. I suppose that the only way to confirm this is to consult the soul mage coming to Mitakihara very soon, and give her a Clear Seed (one of each type) to examine, and see if she knows about the Witchbomb.
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The entire point of magic is that it reverses the inevitable, irreversible entropy that is the arrow of time. Timeline 1 Madoka, who had lower potential than Sayaka, was able to raise the dead with her wish. I'm not buying this.
 
Torgamous said:
Being easy to do and being a big deal aren't mutually exclusive. See gem cleansing.
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On the other hand, Gem cleansing is just shy of an explicitly stated part of our wish.

It wouldn't surprise me, if we got De-witching to the point where we can do it easily, but given the whole magic = emotions thing, it also wouldn't surprise me if a lot of it comes down to actually providing the witches in question with therapy and psychological help.

And speaking of, an odd thought: Before we've tried a soul gem scanner to see the whats of soul gems and grief seeds. Specifically what the body associated with it would look like. And we just baaaarely failed. After the second time, our advice from Mami is "try a different approach."

Which brings us to one thing we have succeed at: mentally contacting witches. In fact we typically succeed so well we nearly witch out ourselves from the emotional backlash.

So what if we combine these two failure states: Try to build a scanner not to see, but to contact as an intermediary that won't give us a bad case of mountains of grief applied directly to the soul gem. To deal with the who, rather than the what.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have no idea if this has been suggested before, but what... If Hildegard had a text-to-speech device?
 
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You guys do know. Its a bad thing, that if Madoka doesn't ascend, countless girls from multiple universes, different time periods won't be save, the incubators will have dominant power of the universe, thats not counting other alien species the incubators tricked.

So why does anyone want to prevent Madokami from happenning, its arrogant for Sabrina to think she can do a better job of being a savior than Madokami not to mentioned selfish to condemned countless multiversal, alien species and girls to suffer in the afterlife, when ascended Madoka and Homura could have been happy, not to mentioned the incubators no longer being the dominanant power of the universe
 
Saotome Nakazawa said:
You guys do know. Its a bad thing, that if Madoka doesn't ascend, countless girls from multiple universes, different time periods won't be save, the incubators will have dominant power of the universe, thats not counting other alien species the incubators tricked.

So why does anyone want to prevent Madokami from happenning, its arrogant for Sabrina to think she can do a better job of being a savior than Madokami not to mentioned selfish to condemned countless multiversal, alien species and girls to suffer in the afterlife, when ascended Madoka and Homura could have been happy, not to mentioned the incubators no longer being the dominanant power of the universe
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It isn't really, though? Arrogant, I mean. I know where you're coming from, but Sabrina represents the same potential...she should be able to match it, although I can't say how yet.

That said, the problem with Madokami is that her ascension leads to Rebellion. It also is only a very specific fix, while we can fix more than that (in theory). The downside is that we're much less reliable a mechanism than her original Wish.
 
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Saotome Nakazawa said:
You guys do know. Its a bad thing, that if Madoka doesn't ascend, countless girls from multiple universes, different time periods won't be save, the incubators will have dominant power of the universe, thats not counting other alien species the incubators tricked.

So why does anyone want to prevent Madokami from happenning, its arrogant for Sabrina to think she can do a better job of being a savior than Madokami not to mentioned selfish to condemned countless multiversal, alien species and girls to suffer in the afterlife, when ascended Madoka and Homura could have been happy, not to mentioned the incubators no longer being the dominanant power of the universe
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There's many reasons, but I like the Doylist one: it would kinda end the quest. Given that these people do not, in fact, exist, we can play with their lives for the sake of the quest however we want. That we might fail and consign magical girls across time to eternal suffering is what gives the quest stakes.
 
FelOnyx said:
There's many reasons, but I like the Doylist one: it would kinda end the STORY. Given that these people do not, in fact, exist, we can play with their lives for the sake of the STORY however we want. That we might fail and consign magical girls across time to eternal suffering is what gives the STORY stakes.
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[STAGE CONSTRUCTING WITCH INTENSIFIES]
 
Onmur said:
Fool. We are not constructing stages.

We are but a pawn. :V
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Wait.
  • The Stage Constructing Witch constructs the Stage.
  • Firnagzen constructed the Quest.
    • Firnagzen is Walpurgisnacht.
      • Walpurgisnacht is Sabrina.
      • We are Sabrina.
        • We are Firnagzen
        • Firnagzen is Oriko
          • We are Oriko
            • Oriko wants to stop Feathers
            • Oriko, as Firnagzen, knows who Feathers is.
            • Oriko wanted to kill Sabrina
              • Sabrina is Feathers
              • Dedolere is Sabrina
                • Dedolere is Feathers
              • We are Sabrina
                • We are Feathers
                • We are Oriko
                  • Oriko is Feathers
                  • Firnagzen is Oriko
                    • Firnagzen is Feathers

There. Seeing as Firnagzen, the players, Sabrina, Walpurgisnacht, Oriko, and Dedolere are all Feathers, we can conclude that the only way to eliminate Feathers is to go back in time and kill Oriko before she can become Walpurgisnacht (which she must, as she is, indeed, Feathers). Seeing as Sabrina is Walpurgisnacht, then Sabrina would thus not exist (because they're, again, the same person). Dedolere cannot exist without Sabrina.

Now, we and Firn are the remaining issues, but we're meta-existences. We can't be erased by in-universe causality, so the key is to make sure we never come into contact with this universe...but we already dealt with that, you see? If Walpurgisnacht never existed, Homura never needed to Wish, so PMMM never happened, so we wouldn't have a quest about it, so we (Feathers) would never become part of this universe!

Thus, Homura was right all along! We just need to kill Oriko!

:V:V:V:V:V

Too bad we couldn't stay with Mami if we did that, so we'll just have to learn to live with being Feathers. :p
 
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Higure said:
Wait.
  • The Stage Constructing Witch constructs the Stage.
  • Firnagzen constructed the Quest.
    • Firnagzen is Walpurgisnacht.
      • Walpurgisnacht is Sabrina.
      • We are Sabrina.
        • We are Firnagzen
        • Firnagzen is Oriko
          • We are Oriko
            • Oriko wants to stop Feathers
            • Oriko, as Firnagzen, knows who Feathers is.
            • Oriko wanted to kill Sabrina
              • Sabrina is Feathers
              • Dedolere is Sabrina
                • Dedolere is Feathers
              • We are Sabrina
                • We are Feathers
                • We are Oriko
                  • Oriko is Feathers
                  • Firnagzen is Oriko
                    • Firnagzen is Feathers
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Is it sad that I can follow this train of thought perfectly?
 
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