The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
... I'm not talking about that one loop? I'm talking about events throughout all of them?
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Illinois
I think I've proposed at least three different perfectly reasonable ways in which Firn might have meant something else, and written roughly 750-1k words as to why I feel that your assumed outcome is unreasonable given what we know. Please stay courteous, and if you have anything to contribute I would welcome it. My response to Firn's warning -- and to your earlier posts' content -- was to try at length to try to understand how it would make sense before I began to question it. No-one has answered me in any real capacity.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
@The Phoenixian
I have some concerns with your revisions.
I'm very unsure on what the value of raising events from this world is. Why include this?
This is very poorly phrased. Madoka wished for a fuckin cat a whole bunch of times. And once you clear that up, why so uncertain? PSP gave us a pretty direct insight into this.
I have some concerns with your revisions.
I'm very unsure on what the value of raising events from this world is. Why include this?
Asking for a bunch of details about her failures seems likely to trigger Homu, and put her into the kind of self-flagelating mood we want to avoid here.
This is very poorly phrased. Madoka wished for a fuckin cat a whole bunch of times. And once you clear that up, why so uncertain? PSP gave us a pretty direct insight into this.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
By the way, we've checked on Oriko's, Kirika's and Mami's witches in the past, but not yet on Homura's, Kyouko's, Sayaka's...
We had a surprise with Kirika's Witch having a different name than the fanon agreed name, likely due to her different Wish, but I'd like to check on everyone's Witches to see if there's any other surprises.
Sayaka's Witch might be different, since she Wished so differently, Wished Good instead of Bad.
Can we check on Homura's Witch, say, next update, or whenever we're about to end the conversation?
We had a surprise with Kirika's Witch having a different name than the fanon agreed name, likely due to her different Wish, but I'd like to check on everyone's Witches to see if there's any other surprises.
Sayaka's Witch might be different, since she Wished so differently, Wished Good instead of Bad.
Can we check on Homura's Witch, say, next update, or whenever we're about to end the conversation?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Yea okay but UNTIL we know what that is, let's assume the worst case because I don't want to play guessing games with Homura's psychological stability.
[x] Redshirt Army
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Well, now that a vote is pretty much settled, I guess it's time to shitpost?
[Q] If anything goes wrong during the conversation, divert Homura's attention with one of the following:
-[Q] Ask Homura for dating advice.
-[Q] Yell that it's Grief Science Time!
-[Q] Surprise hugs.
-[Q] "I must go, my planet needs me."
-[Q] Ask Homu if she knows how to do trick shots to turn on air conditioners.
-[Q] Grab on to Homura with some Grief to stay in timestop, go back inside the house, and hug Oriko. Finally.
-[Q] Tell her you set her up on a date with Madoka.
-[Q] Tell her you set her up on a date with Sayaka.
-[Q] Do the dinosaur.
-[Q] Ask about hairflips.
-[Q] Tell her about stairs.
[Q] If anything goes wrong during the conversation, divert Homura's attention with one of the following:
-[Q] Ask Homura for dating advice.
-[Q] Yell that it's Grief Science Time!
-[Q] Surprise hugs.
-[Q] "I must go, my planet needs me."
-[Q] Ask Homu if she knows how to do trick shots to turn on air conditioners.
-[Q] Grab on to Homura with some Grief to stay in timestop, go back inside the house, and hug Oriko. Finally.
-[Q] Tell her you set her up on a date with Madoka.
-[Q] Tell her you set her up on a date with Sayaka.
-[Q] Do the dinosaur.
-[Q] Ask about hairflips.
-[Q] Tell her about stairs.
- Location
- Illinois
Then perhaps we should make an attempt to figure it out? Because if there's some pressure plate in there that this hits, isn't talking about this stuff at all "gambling"?
Honestly, I've said this somewhere, maybe in a PM to Vebyast after earlier, but we could for instance do something like this...
[] Ask, if she is willing, if she could briefly hit any high points from the earlier loops. There've been a few more discrepancies in places than you'd expected and, well...
{A short search brings up no confirmation of the integrity of loop-history...? @Redshirt Army would know better than me. One major possibility is that something is different from canon and is acting as a minefield for the potential bomb. Also, this should have been done much sooner anyways, for a variety of reasons.}
-[] Cleanses if that's a thing.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
So, yeah, this warning doesn't seem quite as grave as people are making it out to be?
First point: We already knew what Oriko was trying to tell us, and in any event, Oriko is not a reliable narrator, because we invalidate her foreseen futures with an errant twitch.
Second point: I'm actually going to take a moment to raise @Vebyast's own banner of narrative causality, in that SOCIAL, cooperation, inclusion, and hugs have almost categorically produced better outcomes than shadowruns.
Thirdly: The supposition that Homura will go postal/die horribly and ruin everything everywhere forever if she knows is false, and predicated on the assumption that we are obligated to play fair and not literally a demigod. We are not.
Homura is probably the single magical girl on planet Earth who could actually kill us, if she had the element of surprise. She does not.
Three primary weaknesses: 1) Anything attached to her stays mobile in stopped time, 2) Her magic has a somatic component, requiring the shield to physically turn to manipulate time, 3) Her magic, while powerful, is extremely one-dimensional. These are not difficult weaknesses to exploit by people who know about them, which is why she always loses to Mami. We are way, way goddamn stronger than Mami.
More importantly, we can force people to live. Manually.
If Homura wigs out, we restrain her with grief and cleanse until she gets a fucking grip. Absolute, absolute, absolute how the fuck did we fuck up this badly everything is ruined forever worst case scenario? We turn her into a goddamn fine red mist and rock her ass until we can get her over to Umika for memory auditing and Niko for bodily reconstruction. We are capable of doing this with our mind faster than she can lift a gun. I've said this in the past, somewhere, but we can go past Full Gilgamesh if worst comes to worst when handling a magical girl.
We can go Full Franken Fran.
First point: We already knew what Oriko was trying to tell us, and in any event, Oriko is not a reliable narrator, because we invalidate her foreseen futures with an errant twitch.
Second point: I'm actually going to take a moment to raise @Vebyast's own banner of narrative causality, in that SOCIAL, cooperation, inclusion, and hugs have almost categorically produced better outcomes than shadowruns.
Thirdly: The supposition that Homura will go postal/die horribly and ruin everything everywhere forever if she knows is false, and predicated on the assumption that we are obligated to play fair and not literally a demigod. We are not.
Homura is probably the single magical girl on planet Earth who could actually kill us, if she had the element of surprise. She does not.
Three primary weaknesses: 1) Anything attached to her stays mobile in stopped time, 2) Her magic has a somatic component, requiring the shield to physically turn to manipulate time, 3) Her magic, while powerful, is extremely one-dimensional. These are not difficult weaknesses to exploit by people who know about them, which is why she always loses to Mami. We are way, way goddamn stronger than Mami.
More importantly, we can force people to live. Manually.
If Homura wigs out, we restrain her with grief and cleanse until she gets a fucking grip. Absolute, absolute, absolute how the fuck did we fuck up this badly everything is ruined forever worst case scenario? We turn her into a goddamn fine red mist and rock her ass until we can get her over to Umika for memory auditing and Niko for bodily reconstruction. We are capable of doing this with our mind faster than she can lift a gun. I've said this in the past, somewhere, but we can go past Full Gilgamesh if worst comes to worst when handling a magical girl.
We can go Full Franken Fran.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Minor vote edit, since it's been brought up before that time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge might not constitute benign small talk. I'll let Sabrina herself decide what qualifies.
[X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Raise a benign example to illustrate.
-[X] Mutually discuss what this means for the reliability of your knowledge, with an aim of reassurance.
[X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
-[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
-[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers?
[X] An insight: Once her friends, including Homura herself, are safe, if Madoka knows the impact her wishing would have on Homura, and all the effort and sacrifice it took Homura to get through the loops... Madoka will respect that effort, and swear off making a wish.
[X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, spanning centuries and continents, and including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Raise a benign example to illustrate.
-[X] Mutually discuss what this means for the reliability of your knowledge, with an aim of reassurance.
[X] If we really are here as a result of Madoka's wish... then we only exist because of the massive effort Homura has put in.
-[X] Thank Homura for helping you be here. You like existing.
-[X] (Jokingly.) ...Would this make them ...our mothers?
[X] An insight: Once her friends, including Homura herself, are safe, if Madoka knows the impact her wishing would have on Homura, and all the effort and sacrifice it took Homura to get through the loops... Madoka will respect that effort, and swear off making a wish.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
I'd like to state that I'm with the Cat on this one. We provide a strong counter-example on Homura's loops making things worse. Either Oriko was lying, or she was fooled, or the GM was lying.
Point 3 would be really dickish so I'd like to only go there if all other possibilities were exhausted.
Point 1 would mean Oriko is hostile. That's possible - she could have been playing double agent all this time. It's certainly what Homura believes, and it's not been objectively disproven. But it seems less likely than
Point 2, which would merely require Oriko hearing what Kyuubey said and passing it through her crippling depression and self-sacrifice matrix to come to the most negative conclusion possible. But then, Firn just warned us that she warned us... But what did she warn us about?
She doesn't even have to know. If the potentialbomb is made to sound particularly grave - and it is, even if we can defuse it - I doubt the paranoid Homura would refuse us doubling down on our protection and giving her a grief ring of Block Coobs. Which would be made out of grief, and be on her finger, which would coincidentally make it difficult for her to kick us out of timestop if she should try. Doubly difficult if she forgets about it in grief, which is likely.
Heck, we could possibly even get her to give us her Soul Gem directly. Not a likely outcome, but not one beyond the possible.
The only issue is if she full on Tetris' and tries to shoot either ours or her gem.
I'm still voting
[X] Redshirt Army
But I fully intend for Homura to be potentialbombed tonight, barring some outside force making it impossible.
Point 3 would be really dickish so I'd like to only go there if all other possibilities were exhausted.
Point 1 would mean Oriko is hostile. That's possible - she could have been playing double agent all this time. It's certainly what Homura believes, and it's not been objectively disproven. But it seems less likely than
Point 2, which would merely require Oriko hearing what Kyuubey said and passing it through her crippling depression and self-sacrifice matrix to come to the most negative conclusion possible. But then, Firn just warned us that she warned us... But what did she warn us about?
She doesn't even have to know. If the potentialbomb is made to sound particularly grave - and it is, even if we can defuse it - I doubt the paranoid Homura would refuse us doubling down on our protection and giving her a grief ring of Block Coobs. Which would be made out of grief, and be on her finger, which would coincidentally make it difficult for her to kick us out of timestop if she should try. Doubly difficult if she forgets about it in grief, which is likely.
Heck, we could possibly even get her to give us her Soul Gem directly. Not a likely outcome, but not one beyond the possible.
The only issue is if she full on Tetris' and tries to shoot either ours or her gem.
I'm still voting
[X] Redshirt Army
But I fully intend for Homura to be potentialbombed tonight, barring some outside force making it impossible.
OK, so...
Second, because I apparently have to be explicit about it: Yes, it's a warning. Things Will Happen if Homura learns that she is causing Madoka's potential to increase. Doubly so if Kyuubey finds the right time to strike, granted. It will not bad end the Quest, not just yet, but Things Will Happen. I've scattered hints and foreshadowing as to what those things are already, and as far as I can tell, no one's guessed it yet.
If you still want to do it, I can work with that, because I have contingencies for everything. Hell, in some ways, it'd be fun for me.
But be aware that it'd be a massive shift in the status quo.
You know, I'm not that fussy.
Second, because I apparently have to be explicit about it: Yes, it's a warning. Things Will Happen if Homura learns that she is causing Madoka's potential to increase. Doubly so if Kyuubey finds the right time to strike, granted. It will not bad end the Quest, not just yet, but Things Will Happen. I've scattered hints and foreshadowing as to what those things are already, and as far as I can tell, no one's guessed it yet.
If you still want to do it, I can work with that, because I have contingencies for everything. Hell, in some ways, it'd be fun for me.
But be aware that it'd be a massive shift in the status quo.
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Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Of course we knew that. Everyone's just going "what did he mean by thi--
You've sold me.
A
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Oh, good, so Homura would witch out on the spot. Or she'd lose her magic, or something else entirely. Whatever it is, it's a contingency that the QM thinks that could "in some ways" "even" be fun. Those are not fun words.
Either way, apparently there's no way to prepare her for it that will avert Firn's Scenario. That's really fucking depressing. I guess this is where the social stops.
Either way, apparently there's no way to prepare her for it that will avert Firn's Scenario. That's really fucking depressing. I guess this is where the social stops.
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UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If you were spending your time going through the same month, over and over again, seeing the same friends you made, die or Witch out over and over again, and seeing the one you love, die or Witch out over and over again, and turning back the clock, trying once more... only to learn that your attempts to save her were just making things a lot worse by increasing her potential, and there's nothing that could be done about it?
...
...
- Location
- Illinois
You're overreacting again veb.
Homura witching is a bad end.
Okay, so, I'm going to go so far as to take that as confirmation that we are SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKY DESU NYA. In which case... In which case I'm going to have to go re-read. Ooooooookay.
And, on record: it was enough of a warning that nobody was going to violate it directly. Question, yes, violate, no.
see my previous essay post >_>
[X] Ask Homura questions, including but not limited to general events of past loops. There are a few discrepancies that you're starting to see and it's bugging you, so you'd... really appreciate it if you could get corroborations. If she doesn't want to, that's completely fine.
[] This will remain my standing vote for the foreseeable future. Don't worry about it overmuch.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
But Homura isn't making things worse. That's the fucking stupid part. There is apparently NO WAY to convince Homura that things are going to turn out better than okay because she went through all that and we ended with the fucking madowish. There is no outcome where homura believs that madoka can use what she's been given to do good. Do you undersatnd how SHIT that is? It's...
HOW DOES THIS QUALIFY AS EVERYTHING BEING FIXABLE?
That or we're missing something crazy, like Homura actually suppressing awareness of Rebellion and telling her about the potential thing will make her recover her memories. Fucking something like that. I guess that "major changes" aren't necessarily Homura witches out and everything dies.
HOW DOES THIS QUALIFY AS EVERYTHING BEING FIXABLE?
That or we're missing something crazy, like Homura actually suppressing awareness of Rebellion and telling her about the potential thing will make her recover her memories. Fucking something like that. I guess that "major changes" aren't necessarily Homura witches out and everything dies.
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- Location
- Illinois
Veb, we've been moving towards figuring out that something is off in PMAS since forever. Just really slowly. This would appear to be part of that and I rather suspect the obvious thing that we haven't done involves asking people about the past as opposed to assuming our metaknowledge is all-encompassing. Nobody ever said this was going to be easy. We're missing pieces, and we're only now figuring out that that's the case.
Everything will be alright -- but we have to learn from this for that to happen, and panicking is not the way to do that.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Clearly Homura will go homuificer and we find out she cant witch out because of it.
/S
/S
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'll admit to being sympathetic to this viewpoint, if willing to see where Firnagzen is going with this, since I didn't think the Potentialbomb made much sense even in canon.
I was willing to chalk it up to Homura being under a shitload of stress and QB being good at manipulation, but from my perspective, Madoka having more potential doesn't hurt her, and QB contracting her is on it's head, not on Homura's.
In any case, I'm certainly not going to go against a QM decree that clearly written, I'm just wondering what I'm missing.
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Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
*sighs* It still doesn't make sense, but fine. Lets put off the potentialbomb for now.
I still don't understand why but I assume Firn will end up telling us at some point.
I still don't understand why but I assume Firn will end up telling us at some point.
Sure there is. This isn't it.
Chill out, thank you.
- Location
- Illinois
Firn will tell us if we find the right questions to ask. The moment this happened, we found the first set of those. "Why is the potential bomb bad?" We will need to look into this and that is my standing vote.