Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
And mine was that this is a situation that's important, even vital, but doesn't have the immediacy of a crisis. After all, Madoka was stewing on that Wish for four weeks before she made it, and didn't until Homura lay dying in front of her. This isn't Sayaka, whose impulsiveness caused her to Wish as soon as she had a good enough excuse to break her word to us; it's Madoka, and we can trust her to at least try to cover all the angles first.
That said, I do support pulling her and Homura aside immediately following the Bennouna conversation and talk out this new revelation with her. Then, in the same conversation, we throw every anti-Wish arrow in our quiver at her, from Homura's story to the sanitized version of the Apocalypse Bomb. This is a conversation that is going to require focus and time to be effective; we cant do it as a quick aside while we're still awkwardly attending to a guest.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
The problem is not with wanting to talk to Madoka about what she's feeling. I think that's a valuable thing to do... in five or ten minutes, when Nadia's gone and Madoka can talk in private or among friends.
The problem is wanting to put the conversation on hold to talk to her right now about the scary thing she just heard... again. How's she going to interpret that? She's the only one in the group that we've felt the need to stop and reassure every time something bad gets talked about today. She's going to notice that she's the only one being treated like a child. And while we might know that it's because she could accidentally destroy the world, from her perspective it must seem like we're condescending to her because she's the only non-MG in the group. And worse, we're doing it in front of a guest, someone she just met. We're basically shaming her in front of an outsider.
Talking to Madoka about her feelings can wait a few minutes for a less awkward moment. She doesn't have a soul gem that's filling with grief, and she can't contract with all of us there. Allowing her a few minutes to get a handle on what she's feeling won't harm her. (That said, I don't have a problem with the idea of checking how she's feeling by telepathy if people want to, since it wouldn't make a public spectacle of her like stopping everything to talk would.)
When the thread decided to include Madoka in MG business and bring her along to this meeting, it became inevitable that she would wind up hearing some Serious Shit. We have to accept that she will learn about terrible things sometimes; it's far too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
Do you really think that Madoka can't handle waiting five minutes while we resolve things to talk about this? If she were really that fragile then we should never have brought her at all.
The problem is wanting to put the conversation on hold to talk to her right now about the scary thing she just heard... again. How's she going to interpret that? She's the only one in the group that we've felt the need to stop and reassure every time something bad gets talked about today. She's going to notice that she's the only one being treated like a child. And while we might know that it's because she could accidentally destroy the world, from her perspective it must seem like we're condescending to her because she's the only non-MG in the group. And worse, we're doing it in front of a guest, someone she just met. We're basically shaming her in front of an outsider.
Talking to Madoka about her feelings can wait a few minutes for a less awkward moment. She doesn't have a soul gem that's filling with grief, and she can't contract with all of us there. Allowing her a few minutes to get a handle on what she's feeling won't harm her. (That said, I don't have a problem with the idea of checking how she's feeling by telepathy if people want to, since it wouldn't make a public spectacle of her like stopping everything to talk would.)
When the thread decided to include Madoka in MG business and bring her along to this meeting, it became inevitable that she would wind up hearing some Serious Shit. We have to accept that she will learn about terrible things sometimes; it's far too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
Untrue. Coming on too strong backfired with Oriko and Sasa.
Do you really think that Madoka can't handle waiting five minutes while we resolve things to talk about this? If she were really that fragile then we should never have brought her at all.
That's something that Homu should tell her, not us.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
A private chat with Homura will almost certainly happen in timestop. It takes zero time. No juggling required.
- Location
- Earth
I'm sorry but no.... Never ever will professionalism come before comforting or tending to a friend in emotional distress... seriously guys... ANY distress for that matter. Friends first... always.
[x] Onmur
[x] Onmur
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
What is the argument about?
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Whether we need to interrupt things to reassure Madoka right now or whether it can wait until we're done with Nadia.
@Always Happening can we form some sort of coalition if I add checking on Madoka via telepathy to the vote?
@Always Happening can we form some sort of coalition if I add checking on Madoka via telepathy to the vote?
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mistfist
Protector of Moe
- Location
- United States, EST
From Nadia's perspective, she'd probably rather ally herself with a magical girl who cares more about her friends' sanity than remaining professional as one of her friends appears to be freaking out.
Yes, being professional is important, especially when trying to establish ourselves as a reliable magical girl. But if we appear to not even care about someone who we said was our friend, that would just give Nadia a reason not to trust us.
[X] Onmur
Yes, being professional is important, especially when trying to establish ourselves as a reliable magical girl. But if we appear to not even care about someone who we said was our friend, that would just give Nadia a reason not to trust us.
[X] Onmur
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I hate having to repeat myself, but I guess I have to: I'm not concerned with looking professional at this point. I'm concerned with embarrassing Madoka in front of company and making her feel condescended to by treating her like she needs immediate coddling every time she hears something sad.
After talking to Godwinson it sounds like we might different interpretations of just how much distress Madoka is currently experiencing.
@Firnagzen just how upset does she look?
@Firnagzen just how upset does she look?
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
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- Twin Realms Mandala
I think we need a clarification... @Firnagzen , how is Madoka reacting to the news? Is she freaking out, making a scene, or panicking in any noticable manner?
Could we reassure her without breaking conversation?
Edit: Ahh Ninja'd!
Could we reassure her without breaking conversation?
Edit: Ahh Ninja'd!
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
What kind of person do you think Madoka is? You're treating her like some kind of hyper-macho businessman with testosterone spouting out the pores on her bald spot. She isn't going to take this as "coddling" or "condescending". She isn't worried about "shame" or "looking weak in front of a business partner". She's a teenage girl that just learned that someone fucking died and we're taking in her teammates because they're bereaved and going to die themselves if we don't help them. She's going to take it for exactly what it is: A gesture of compassion, care, and concern for her well-being.
If Nadia thinks badly of us for going off to comfort a distressed friend, I don't want to work with her anyway and she can fuck right off. We need her to not just be okay with us going out of our way to be nice people, she has to be actively on board with compassionate actions at the expense of "professionalism" or "hardness".
I think that this meeting is winding down anyway. If you really want to, we can delegate the last little bit of conversation (logistics?) to Homura and Mami. Which, remember how delegation is something we need to be doing by word of Precog and requests from Homura, Mami, and Madoka, plus hints from the QM?
Eh, this isn't spilling Homura's secrets to Mami; this is talking to Madoka. I'm sure Homura will be a little squirmy for awhile, but in the end she'll thank us for doing the hard part of making words come out and getting to the important part of Madoka giving her a giant hug.
What Onmur wants to do is not going to be comforting to Madoka; it's going to be humiliating. Dropping an important business conversation in order to immediately "tend to" Madoka, like she's a child throwing a fit, is a gigantic insult to someone raised in an Asian household, and an even more insulting gesture to a Japanese person. Onmur's plan isn't going to comfort Madoka; it's going to make her upset at Sabrina, and rightly so.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I don't think that Nadia would think badly of us. Feeling embarrassed doesn't require anyone who's looking to actually be judging you.
You're completely missing what I'm getting at. I'm saying that treating Madoka--and only Madoka--like that is going to make her feel like we must think of her like a helpless child, and she's going to assume that she's being treated that way because she's the only non-MG in the room.
EDIT: Madoka's biggest issue is feeling useless. Let's not treat her like we think she's useless.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
We do this aaaaaaaall the time. We've done it to Homura and Mami at different times. We did it to Madoka just a little bit ago. Again, this is not a testosterone-spouting caricature of a depressed, oppressed japanese salaryman, this is a little girl that's feeling bad. If she feels any negative emotion at all, it'll be "why does he care this much about worthless little me" - remember that Madoka has crippling self-esteem issues - and even those will be entirely wiped out by the warm fuzzies of someone caring about her. edit: Especially given the current justification, that we want her to hold on to that because it helps.
I also think that you're still significantly overestimating how "business-y" this meeting is. Remember how Bennouna's been around here multiple times? And how she keeps saying things like "I wouldn't have believed it, but Tomoe Mami said it"? Even more than that, if you really want Bennouna on board as a partner, don't treat this like a business transaction. We're being idealists, presenting a vision for the future. Treating it like a boring "I give you money" transaction is a great way to torpedo it. Especially since we just got done telling everybody that we're doing this for benevolence rather than profit. We need to maintain the atmosphere of being an idealistic person that cares about everybody. If we ignore Madoka here, what message does it send about our dedication to our idealism?
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Still though, wouldn't telepathy be sufficient for the moment? Completely derailing what's left of the meeting seems rather rash to me.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Yes, Madoka does have poor self-esteem. Don't you think that might be exacerbated by treating her like she can't get through a conversation without constant help?
There's been enough calls for this that I feel like it's worth adding to the vote.
[X] Telepathically check on Madoka. Is she okay? We know she's heard some shocking things today. Offer to talk about them after this. Be reassuring.
[X] Verbally: Of course! Helping girls in a tough spot like that is what we're all about. Talk a bit about arranging transportation for magical girls who can't make the trip, maybe collaborating with other magical groups to do it; and about setting up living accommodations for immigrant magical girls.
-[X] Any girl that comes here will have their gem kept clean and help settling into their new life, and those that want to do work for us will get paid for it.
--[X] Speaking of which, would Nadia be interested in working for us full-time, traveling to talk to people on our behalf?
[X] Repeat our earlier question about Asunaro.
[X] Give Mami and the others the opportunity to ask their own questions and offer their own ideas.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
- Body language is important. Madoka needs a hug.
- Briefly stepping out isn't a problem - you're announcing your diversion - but sending text messages under the table misaligns expectations and is a bit rude.
- We want Bennouna to see us caring about our friends.
- We don't want Bennouna worrying about what we're talking about under her nose. Taking Madoka aside is an obvious thing, mysterious telepathy behind the table not so much.
- It doesn't put Madoka into the mindset of hiding her feelings. This'll be better if she can express herself to us.
Or maybe it will be helped by showing that we care about her and asking her to keep doing what she's doing. Which has been our plan this entire time, and it's been working and suddenly withdrawing support would be even worse, so maybe we should stick with it?
Hm. I suppose my general irritation/dislike of Madoka is biasing my line of thinking here. *steps back from discussion*
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Waiting a few minutes for an opportune moment to talk is equivalent to completely withdrawing our support now?
- Location
- Your Native Universe
Just gonna point this out, Madoka's not made of glass. She's not going to break from a few bad stuff happening and a few truths. She's the person who took entire truth of the Magical Girl system, actually thought out a wish that would fix all of the problems, and then took the plunge. She might be a person who feels very strongly with her emotions, but she's also a very strong person. She only really contracts in the case that she either doesn't know everything, or believes that the situation will only get worse if she doesn't do anything.
Also, does anyone find it really messed up that there's a reoccurring idea of basically just assigning Madoka as the eventual "meguca therapist"? She's 14. She is in no ways qualified to actually help Magical Girls with their mental and emotional problems, nor is she even obligated to fulfill that role. She'll attempt to do it if Sabrina and Mami asks it of her because of her "I want to help" complex, but that doesn't mean it's actually what she wants to do. If she wanted to do it, she probably would have brought it up to Sabrina as she learned (and continues to learn) more of the truth of the Magical Girl system.
Also, does anyone find it really messed up that there's a reoccurring idea of basically just assigning Madoka as the eventual "meguca therapist"? She's 14. She is in no ways qualified to actually help Magical Girls with their mental and emotional problems, nor is she even obligated to fulfill that role. She'll attempt to do it if Sabrina and Mami asks it of her because of her "I want to help" complex, but that doesn't mean it's actually what she wants to do. If she wanted to do it, she probably would have brought it up to Sabrina as she learned (and continues to learn) more of the truth of the Magical Girl system.
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