Dragon Ball: After the End

Simon_Jester said:

Can I ask one of the many "nobody has to die, you'll make it so" voters for a character development explanation of why this is the better choice? It seems like there's this unspoken consensus to double down on it, causing several people to vote for it without anyone really having presented their reasons.

Is it because people consider a reflexive, unreflective commitment to pacifism to be a better form of character development for Kakara than a thoughtful commitment?

Is it because people are checking off the option that gives us maximum Pacifist Points?

Is it because of something I haven't thought of yet?

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A few reasons that I can think of, any number of which a person can subscribe t:
1) They fear voting otherwise could sabotage the pacifist path.
2) Because Kakara had consciously decided to follow such a path, none of the reasons have changed, and her failure at fighting reinforces that.
3) Because they interpret the vote as the result of Kakara thinking about it for the rest of the year, and so is not "unreflective".
4) They think it's the most in-character response.
5) They want to get rid of Cognitive Dissonance as soon as possible.
6) They don't want to delay on a resolution, when they've already decided.
7) They don't see any benefit in being non-decisive.

[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

...full disclosure- wha- why- how?

Sucal said:

Because we voted for the peaceful diplomatic option in the first place

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And... why does this mean Kakara's pacifism is a thing best left unexamined and hastily doubled down on?

Poptart may have assured us that the pacifist route will be viable. I look forward to watching that unfold. But the Instant Pastry-riffic One is too good a QM to let that mean pacifism will go unchallenged. There will be other situations in which Kakara's pacifist beliefs force hard decisions or even defeats on her. Perhaps cases where Hot Blooded and Pacifist are placed in direct conflict. Or other things which I cannot predict.

Gore17 said:

A few reasons that I can think of, any number of which a person can subscribe t:
1) They fear voting otherwise could sabotage the pacifist path.
2) Because Kakara had consciously decided to follow such a path, none of the reasons have changed, and her failure at fighting reinforces that.
3) Because they interpret the vote as the result of Kakara thinking about it for the rest of the year, and so is not "unreflective".
4) They think it's the most in-character response.
5) They want to get rid of Cognitive Dissonance as soon as possible.
6) They don't want to delay on a resolution, when they've already decided.
7) They don't see any benefit in being non-decisive.

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Well...

(1) seems groundless unless Poptart is engaging in bad QM-ing; there wouldn't be any point in a 'I need to think' vote that actually says 'I need to think' if the only purpose of that were to make Kakara irresolute. I don't think Poptart is encouraging us to grow Kakara up as an unreflective or rash person.

(2) goes directly against the very question Kakara, in-character, asked herself: Did she screw up by starting violence? Or did she screw up by not finishing the violence? It's an attempt to pretend the question was never asked, to try to resolve the cognitive dissonance by sweeping it under the rug and acting like it isn't there. Which, almost by definition, is exactly how to NOT resolve one's cognitive dissonance, unless one plans to become a very foolish person.

(3) is actually a good answer, although I see no reason to assume our vote right now would reflect three months of Kakara's thinking, or however much time is left. Not without Poptart's say-so. However, this is a good explanation and I respect it and if the author confirms its validity, I may well change my own vote.

(4) loops back to (2). In-character Kakara literally just asked this question, both of her father and herself. She's questioning her beliefs. That's the entire point of the first part of this update. Trying to flip that off like a light-switch may not have good results. And it certainly won't have unalloyed good results.

(5) is understandable, but runs into the objection I already raised. This isn't the last time Kakara's going to see something bad happening, either because she deviated from her pacifist beliefs, or because she followed her pacifist beliefs. A more mature Kakara who's already thought things through is going to be much better equipped to cope with those future crises, and much more likely to avoid future bouts of Cognitive Dissonance. Especially compared to a Kakara who resolutely refused to actually stop and take time to make sure she'd properly examined, fully understood, and learned from her own mistakes. Because learning takes reflection.

(6) sounds uncharitable to me. It sounds like people would be voting to stop Kakara from thinking about things because they've already decided what they want Kakara to believe. That road sounds calculated to turn her into a fanatic and a fool. Why not have Kakara be a person who thinks and considers and weighs her own beliefs? Turning her into a zealot makes it far more likely that her beliefs will become the catalyst for her later destruction, or at least her later disappointment.

(7) misses something important, which is the part where Kakara is still growing up. "I need to take time to think" isn't Kakara being indecisive in a crisis, which is what the Decisive trait actually models- time-critical situations. This is Kakara being reflective outside a crisis, which is a vital complement to being decisive inside one. Decisiveness that isn't tempered by reflection and analysis in times of quiet isn't decisiveness at all; it's rashness.

fictionfan said:

We need to improve our seer gift. We could have handled things so much better if we knew more.

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we literally are going as fast as we can

[X][ALIEN] Accept his surrender.
-[X] Ask him why
[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

DkArthas said:

Pacifism > Broken Resolve

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but the middle of the road option almost definitely leads to a better trait (ie: one that does not fuck us over for fighting) in the long run. you are only looking at the short term.

I'd actually like a trait that fucks us over for SOME fighting because otherwise it's not a meaningful statement of Kakara's values.

What I really want is a trait or combination of traits that fucks us over MORE if we try to fight when it's not strictly necessary, but LESS when things are desperate and our options are closing down fast.

Say, one that would have made it obvious that attacking the scout was a bad idea in the first place, but that, having already done so, would rate "power up to beat the scout" on par with "just run away and let Dad deal with it."

That's where we get "It's not a sin to fight for the right cause," with the strong implication that it is very much a sin to do so when it isn't.

And my opinion is that pacifism is a disease that can grow into a full on cancer if pushed too much.

Also I like hitting people and technically everyone here is only an armchair pacifist anyway...

[X][ALIEN] Accept his surrender.
-[X] Ask him why.

[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

Have a tally.


Night. And sorry for double posting. Tallies and votes don't mix

Inserted tally

Okay, "by block" seems to work a bit better. We have an overwhelming majority (so far, with few precincts reporting) for "accept surrender, ask him why."

We also have eight votes for "need to think" and six for "Nobody has to die. You'll make it so if that's not the case!"

Simon_Jester said:

Well...

(1) seems groundless unless Poptart is engaging in bad QM-ing; there wouldn't be any point in a 'I need to think' vote that actually says 'I need to think' if the only purpose of that were to make Kakara irresolute. I don't think Poptart is encouraging us to grow Kakara up as an unreflective or rash person.

(2) goes directly against the very question Kakara, in-character, asked herself: Did she screw up by starting violence? Or did she screw up by not finishing the violence? It's an attempt to pretend the question was never asked, to try to resolve the cognitive dissonance by sweeping it under the rug and acting like it isn't there. Which, almost by definition, is exactly how to NOT resolve one's cognitive dissonance, unless one plans to become a very foolish person.

(3) is actually a good answer, although I see no reason to assume our vote right now would reflect three months of Kakara's thinking, or however much time is left. Not without Poptart's say-so. However, this is a good explanation and I respect it and if the author confirms its validity, I may well change my own vote.

(4) loops back to (2). In-character Kakara literally just asked this question, both of her father and herself. She's questioning her beliefs. That's the entire point of the first part of this update. Trying to flip that off like a light-switch may not have good results. And it certainly won't have unalloyed good results.

(5) is understandable, but runs into the objection I already raised. This isn't the last time Kakara's going to see something bad happening, either because she deviated from her pacifist beliefs, or because she followed her pacifist beliefs. A more mature Kakara who's already thought things through is going to be much better equipped to cope with those future crises, and much more likely to avoid future bouts of Cognitive Dissonance. Especially compared to a Kakara who resolutely refused to actually stop and take time to make sure she'd properly examined, fully understood, and learned from her own mistakes. Because learning takes reflection.

(6) sounds uncharitable to me. It sounds like people would be voting to stop Kakara from thinking about things because they've already decided what they want Kakara to believe. That road sounds calculated to turn her into a fanatic and a fool. Why not have Kakara be a person who thinks and considers and weighs her own beliefs? Turning her into a zealot makes it far more likely that her beliefs will become the catalyst for her later destruction, or at least her later disappointment.

(7) misses something important, which is the part where Kakara is still growing up. "I need to take time to think" isn't Kakara being indecisive in a crisis, which is what the Decisive trait actually models- time-critical situations. This is Kakara being reflective outside a crisis, which is a vital complement to being decisive inside one. Decisiveness that isn't tempered by reflection and analysis in times of quiet isn't decisiveness at all; it's rashness.

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1) That wasn't a reference to Poptart and his writing, but fear of a potential split vote, or future votes turning unfavourably for their position.
2) To clarify, said reasoning is "Kakara, judging everything, realizes that her previous decision and logic still holds, and that therefore, she made a mistake by fighting in the first place", not trying to sweep it under a rug.
3) It's actually nine months, as we're currently 3 months into the year, as Poptart mentioned here. Kakara has her birthday mid-year.
4) The reasoning is that they think it's the most in-character. Not whether it's the most optimal or "best" decision.
5) I never said it was a good reason.
6) Eh, this is common behaviour in quests, where people vote for how they want things to play out, regardless on in-universe concerns. It's the same issue that partially caused the whole "Cognitive Dissonance" in the first place.
7) Or they view it as Kakara having a firm enough understanding of herself and her beliefs that there's no issue.

[X][DRAMA] You're right. Nobody has to die. You'll make it so if that's not the case. That's always been your way; you hope for better. You won't stop now!

Gore17 said:

1) That wasn't a reference to Poptart and his writing, but fear of a potential split vote, or future votes turning unfavourably for their position.
2) To clarify, said reasoning is "Kakara, judging everything, realizes that her previous decision and logic still holds, and that therefore, she made a mistake by fighting in the first place", not trying to sweep it under a rug.
3) It's actually nine months, as we're currently 3 months into the year, as Poptart mentioned here. Kakara has her birthday mid-year.
4) The reasoning is that they think it's the most in-character. Not whether it's the most optimal or "best" decision.
5) I never said it was a good reason.
6) Eh, this is common behaviour in quests, where people vote for how they want things to play out, regardless on in-universe concerns. It's the same issue that partially caused the whole "Cognitive Dissonance" in the first place.
7) Or they view it as Kakara having a firm enough understanding of herself and her beliefs that there's no issue.

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1) This seems very unfair- in effect, crippling Kakara's ability to learn from present experiences, for fear of the quest organically evolving in a direction that a group of voters right now dislikes. It's like "I fear becoming a minority in the future, so I'll plant time-bombs to explode if someone else becomes the majority, sabotaging them and forcing them to do what I want." It's dirty pool if you ask me.

2) The problem is that in-character Kakara is questioning herself in this way. Either she dismisses it entirely as just a case of the jitters that shouldn't affect her resolve, or she actually needs time to think about what just happened. And in the former case... honestly, that is sweeping character development under the rug. We just had a major character-defining moment- the first time in Kakara's life that she got into a fight where she had nothing massively personal immediately at stake. How she feels about that should have an impact on her, even if all it does is reinforce her views. And if it does simply reinforce her beliefs, then it should do so after she's seriously considered what just happened.

3) The exact duration of time is moot. Point remains, if this vote is intended to reflect a considered decision made over an extended period of time regardless of the vote outcome, then I will be canceling my "need to think" vote, though I may or may not actually participate in the vote beyond that point.

4) Again, in-character Kakara just asked herself this question. She asks herself a lot of questions. She's got Mature as a character trait for a reason- for her age she is strikingly mature already. In-character, Kakara isn't especially reckless or unreflective. Especially not for an eleven-year-old. So having her make an unreflective decision to ignore everything that led her to question her previous beliefs and proceed as if nothing had changed... I'm arguing that that isn't really "in-character" for her. It's an attempt to sidestep character development, not to pursue it.

6) You're not wrong about it being common behavior, but I'm not a fan of that type of behavior. Especially when it seems likely to cause long-term damage by turning a character into a fanatic incapable of actually thinking over her own decisions.

7) She's eleven years old. If she's already done understanding herself, I feel sorry for her.

DarknessSmiles said:

we literally are going as fast as we can

[X][ALIEN] Accept his surrender.
-[X] Ask him why
[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

but the middle of the road option almost definitely leads to a better trait (ie: one that does not fuck us over for fighting) in the long run. you are only looking at the short term.

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I enjoy characters with extremes and flaws, Doing the middle road is just fucking boring.

I don't mind a character with extremes and flaws, but I do mind a character who's stupid. Stupid in the sense of "holds idiot balls readily" and "this person's alleged superior intellect is an informed attribute."

Refusing to even seriously question one's own life choices, in the face of major defining experiences, is the kind of thing that can make a person stupid.

It's okay to decide you were right all along. It's not okay to take less than five minutes to even bother asking "was I right all along?"

@Simon_Jester , do you think that we[the voter base] won't fuck up with pacifism again?

[X][ALIEN] Accept his surrender.
-[X] Ask him why.

[X][DRAMA] You...you don't know. This is a hard question. You need to think. You need time. But at least you're a little wiser now; you know that you still have to think about it. And that's...that's okay.

NegativeJ said:

@Simon_Jester , do you think that we[the voter base] won't fuck up with pacifism again?

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with a trait like that and a world like dragon ball, its not a question of if, but when said trait would be challenged again.

DarknessSmiles said:

with a trait like that and a world like dragon ball, its not a question of if, but when said trait would be challenged again.

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Yet said challenges can be overcome.

Remember people: it's "harm others only as a last resort", not "let Frieze/Cell/Majin Buu/The Enemy kill without challenge".

Gore17 said:

Remember people: it's "harm others only as a last resort", not "let Frieze/Cell/Majin Buu/The Enemy kill without challenge".

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It's neither. It's "violence is wrong", straight from the trait description. We need to refine our philosophy to the last resort bit.

Also: "You still need to learn how to live this way in a society filled with hot-blooded fighters, but you have your beliefs."

We really haven't thought about the practical bits here, so we really need the time to sit and think about this.

Simon_Jester said:

I don't mind a character with extremes and flaws, but I do mind a character who's stupid. Stupid in the sense of "holds idiot balls readily" and "this person's alleged superior intellect is an informed attribute."

Refusing to even seriously question one's own life choices, in the face of major defining experiences, is the kind of thing that can make a person stupid.

It's okay to decide you were right all along. It's not okay to take less than five minutes to even bother asking "was I right all along?"

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The thing is, shes not questioning it after pacifism fucked something up.

Shes questioning it after acting against her own morals which fucked it up.

Its not 'I tried to befriend that guy and he killed a bunch of people'

its 'I punched first rather then talked, and that fucked everything up. Maybe I should have talked like I wanted to"

Gore17 said:

Yet said challenges can be overcome.

Remember people: it's "harm others only as a last resort", not "let Frieze/Cell/Majin Buu/The Enemy kill without challenge".

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its also "always try to end a conflict peacefully" and do you know when that falls apart? when you start facing psychos that can nuke your planet while you are trying to talk to them, or present situations like "fight me or i will kill your friend"?

dragonball is not 40K levels of grimdark, but its definitely up there. and that means that a lot of threats need to be met at full power from the start if you dont want to lose something precious. and Pacifist largely prevents that.


ummm, scary thought. what if this guy is carrying a suicide bomb?

NegativeJ said:

@Simon_Jester , do you think that we[the voter base] won't fuck up with pacifism again?

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I don't know what you mean by that, but it doesn't matter, because the answer is "it doesn't matter," either way.

I accept without complaint the voter base's desire to pursue pacifism. I disdain any attempt to engage in histrionics as an attempt to 'protest' pacifism.

[glares]

The reality is, Kakara will remain a pacifist character for some time. This pacifism will be tested again.Maybe voters will push a violent course of action to avoid some perceived disaster. Or maybe they won't. Events will occasionally force Kakara's hand, one way or the other, either way.

Poptart is too good a QM to avoid putting Kakara's pacifism to the test and creating situations where she is forced to confront her beliefs.

That being the case, Kakara needs to learn to think about her own views in a mature way. On this, I think Berra had the seed of a key insight- it doesn't so much matter what Kakara decides, as that she actually thinks things through and follows an internally consistent decision that is supported by her introspective and planning abilities.

...

We notice that Kakara didn't even think about the possibility that she would have to use violence to subdue alien scouts. Even though she was an active participant in the scout-hunting project, even though Berra TOLD her she might be called on as a first responder if a team found a scout. She just... didn't think it through.

If Kakara had thought things through more, were more in the habit of reflecting on her actions in the light of her beliefs or vice versa, she might well not be having troublesome dissonance now. Because she'd have been able to make plans and resolutions in advance, resulting either in vote weighting for more peaceful plans, OR Kakara having less trouble with the idea of following a violent plan.

Gore17 said:

Yet said challenges can be overcome.

Remember people: it's "harm others only as a last resort", not "let Frieze/Cell/Majin Buu/The Enemy kill without challenge".

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Which means Kakara needs to be mentally prepared, the next time a Frieza-equivalent enemy shows up. She needs to be prepared to fight him, or to find some way of talking him down, or to fight him after talking him down fails, or something. Anything, really. Any course of action that involves Kakara having thought this stuff through is sustainable in my opinion.

What is not sustainable is having Kakara go into a situation like that firmly convinced of the rightness of her own beliefs, but psychologically unready to deal with the consequences of her actions, OR to deal with the conflicts between her own beliefs and situations that force her to ask difficult questions about those beliefs.

Quest said:

It's neither. It's "violence is wrong", straight from the trait description. We need to refine our philosophy to the last resort bit.

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Exactly this.

If we want "Violence is a last resort, but acceptable in the last resort," Kakara's going to have some contemplating to do before she gets there. If we want "Violence is always wrong, literally always no matter what," Kakara's going to have some contemplating to do before she gets there, too.

Sucal said:

The thing is, shes not questioning it after pacifism fucked something up.

Shes questioning it after acting against her own morals which fucked it up.

Its not 'I tried to befriend that guy and he killed a bunch of people'

its 'I punched first rather then talked, and that fucked everything up. Maybe I should have talked like I wanted to"

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Well, my point isn't "Kakara needs to change her beliefs." It's that she needs to think about her beliefs. Refine them. Ask herself obvious questions about what might happen next time, or in a different situation, or when she has to worry about the alien army that she knows is coming.

Otherwise, we're going to have this problem again, simply because there are too many ways for it to recur. Not all of them involve the voterbase voting for violence before exhausting peaceful options.

Yeah... I'm suspect no one here has thought about why our little alien is giving up... I'm suspecting that he knows or has some accsess to some sort of transportation ability...