Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Nah, it's the voters going full derp that brought this on.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
What are your comments on Higure's and DrZiztah's votes?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
I mainly think that, regardless of whether we succeed in the "make a speech to fix someone" effort, we really need to be careful that we don't simply push her into being an enemy again.
- Location
- South Africa
Oriko would consider us an enemy if she decided that we threaten her ability to save the world. This would mean:
Preventing her from helping
Putting the world at risk
Preventing the things needed to save the world from coming together (so, driving off Homura or something)
Capabilities-wise, basically getting her precog back. Her and Kirika are an annoying combo to have as enemies.
Preventing her from helping
Putting the world at risk
Preventing the things needed to save the world from coming together (so, driving off Homura or something)
Capabilities-wise, basically getting her precog back. Her and Kirika are an annoying combo to have as enemies.
Demosthenes
PhotoFop
- Location
- 'Murica
Don't know what the votes are currently, but I vote:
[X] we back off, tell Oriko and Kirika that they are ultimately the ones to decide and let them know that we care about them, not just as assets, but as friends.
[X] Let them know that we'll keep looking for something to help Oriko's condition.
[X] we back off, tell Oriko and Kirika that they are ultimately the ones to decide and let them know that we care about them, not just as assets, but as friends.
[X] Let them know that we'll keep looking for something to help Oriko's condition.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I don't know about votes. Haven't thought about vote enough this voting round.
But can you hear that sound?
But can you hear that sound?
That one.
The one Mami's heart is making.
Like it's curling in on itselft and wailing in agony.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
...Yeeeeaaahhh.
Urobuchi is pleased.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
I'd like some context into this.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
If it pleases Urobuchi it's clearly an excellent idea.
It's @Higure's vote, though I heartily approve of it. The current bandwagon is just another opening for Oriko to again reiterate and reinforce her suicidal ideation, and we really, really don't want to do that.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Your name was on hand to copy-paste, and I'm a lazy bastard.
Demosthenes
PhotoFop
- Location
- 'Murica
well dang, if it's a choice between throwing my vote away and damage control, I'll pick the latter. I'm changing my vote to
[X] Higure
[X] Higure
DrZiztah
Mumu
- Location
- Europa
Eh, works, I guess? I'm a bit wary of the preaching tone in some parts, however. Though not immediately obvious, this is quite confrontational about the subject, which might just make things worse by making Oriko gloss over the immediate points made here.
I repeat: No zingers. Zingers are bad, and only make you feel satisfied for a small amount of time before the problems caused emerge.
So, @Higure, the lines colored red are something I honestly see with some problems that might need fixing. The line about understanding wanting to die was already brought up, and could be said in a more fine manner. But my main thing is that try to tone down the confrontation a bit. Being firm and being aggressive are not the same thing: the latter can ruin perfectly fine points.
[[The lines in green... Honestly, it bugs me a bit, but I can't quite figure it out why.]]
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I don't really foresee it being a major issue. I think it's pretty obvious in context that we're just speaking hypothetically.
But if people really feel that it's a problem, then maybe we could replace...
...with something like this: "You understand wanting your death--and your life--to have meaning."
Hmm... yeah, this line always seemed kind of pointless to me. It's just some rather ill-defined and metaphysical cheerleading.
Given that the following line is about wasting her and Kirika's potential, maybe it would make more sense to talk about all the good that Oriko can do if she doesn't kill herself? And the good they've done since they started working with us instead of fighting us?
What about this?
[ ] Since she and Kirika started working with you instead of fighting you, they've helped you save dozens or hundred of lives. There is so much more good that they could do in the future.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
...I really don't think Mami will break down over that line, considering reading it in full makes it clear that it's we're not confessing to a suicide wish, and the exact phrasing may not even come up, but fine, I'll go back and tweak it.
I disagree on the second one: Yes, it comes across as somewhat aggressive, but in this it also treats her as an equal, rather than trying for forced calm...which, to me, comes across as rather comdescending.
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Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting your death-and your life-to have meaning.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
Tweaked to lower chance of potential Mami freakout, upon request of Onmur, Muramasa, and Dr.Ziztah. Used a suggestion by TheEyes to do so.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further. (Do NOT reference other Orikos/Symmetry Diamond. This is about our confidence in this Oriko.)
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
Added a forbiddance on discussing parallel Orikos.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
Rather fond of the "metaphysical cheerleading" myself.
Problem with your second suggestion is that none of the good they did there actually counted as "meaningful" relative to her Wish. Good deeds, but not ones that helped address the core issues. Bringing them up will just make her think we're missing the point again.
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting your death-and your life-to have meaning.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
Tweaked to lower chance of potential Mami freakout, upon request of Onmur, Muramasa, and Dr.Ziztah. Used a suggestion by TheEyes to do so.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further. (Do NOT reference other Orikos/Symmetry Diamond. This is about our confidence in this Oriko.)
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
Added a forbiddance on discussing parallel Orikos.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
Implemented your first suggestion.
Rather fond of the "metaphysical cheerleading" myself.
Problem with your second suggestion is that none of the good they did there actually counted as "meaningful" relative to her Wish. Good deeds, but not ones that helped address the core issues. Bringing them up will just make her think we're missing the point again.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Can you clarify? I'm not sure how saving hundreds of lives can not be meaningful.
Is it that it's not meaningful to her if it doesn't relate to the fate of the world in the face of an existential threat to humanity? In that case, we can point out that by helping us save Sayaka from that witch, she may very well have averted the end of the world, since a dead Sayaka could potentially trigger a sequence of events that would lead to the apocalypse (by causing Madoka to wish, but if she doesn't already know that then we probably shouldn't tell her).