Starfleet Design Bureau

Im going to caution against this line of thinking
Do note that the Klingons are just as capable of refitting their ships with new tech as we are, and remain somewhat ahead of us in the relevant military fields; for example, their heavy shields are about 70% more powerful than ours
The jump from the D6 to D7 was a ~50% increase in shield power for 60kt or double the mass (20 shield -> 30 shield, 60kt -> 120kt), the jump from the D7 to K'tinga was a ~66% increase in shield power for a 60kt or 50% mass increase (30 shield -> 50 shield, 120kt -> 180kt).

I doubt the Klingons will be able to more than double the shield strength from a 45kt increase to mass, even more so since they don't have a technologically superior civilization to salvage tech off of to jumpstart technological breakthroughs like we do.

Edit:
Full Klingon Warbook for stat reference's:
Starfleet Warbook [2250]

Klingon Empire

K'tinga Heavy Cruiser [Development]
Mass: 180,000 Tons
Maneuverability: ?
Armament: 2 Heavy Disruptor Cannons, 1 Heavy Disruptor Beam, 1 Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 50
Cruise: Warp 7
Maximum: ?
Estimated Cost: 80-95

D7 Heavy Cruiser [Active Production]
Mass: 120,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 120,000 Tons (Standard)
Armament: 2 Heavy Disruptor Beams, 1 Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 30
Cruise: Warp 7
Maximum: Warp 8.2
Estimated Cost: 60

D6 Cruiser [Out of Production]
Mass: 60,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 60,000 Tons (Standard)
Armament: 2 Disruptor Beams, 1 Photon Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 20
Cruise: Warp 6
Maximum: Warp 7.2
Estimated Cost: 44

B'rel Bird-of-Prey [Development]
Mass: 60,000 Tons
Maneuverability: ?
Armament: 2 Disruptor Cannons, ? Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: ?
Cruise: ?
Maximum: ?
Estimated Cost: 40-55

Bird-of-Prey [Active Production]
Mass: 30,000 Tons
Maneuverability: 15,000 Tons (Very High)
Armament: 2 Light Disruptor Beams, 1 Photon Torpedo Launcher
Shield Rating: 12
Cruise: Warp 6
Maximum: Warp 7.2
Estimated Cost: 24
 
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The mass figures may not match up, but Sayle is clearly using matching tactical systems.
No they are not; see how the canon Miranda is equipped with Type-7 phasers, when we just invented Type-5s
And the canon Miranda is a Warp Nine ship

Furthermore? In your quote, Sayle laid out the weapons suite of the canon Constitution as
-3x phaser banks
-1x rapid launcher

They repeated the same thing when they produced a stat block for the Connie side by side with the Callie in the Project Constitution Retrospective:


ClassExcaliburConstitution
Design TeamUtopia PlanitiaUtopia Planitia
Mass180000190000
Single Target Rating5030
Multi-Target Rating42
Average Damage11.68.0
Max Sustained Damage5042
Alpha Strike Damage11078
Coverage31%18%
ManeuverabilityVery HighMedium
Hull Rating3841
Shield Rating3638
Engineering44
Science1012
Efficient Cruise6.26.6
Maximum Cruise77
Maximum Warp8.67.8
Operational Range357430
Ratings
CostC+A
Tactical RatingSB-
Engineering RatingC-C-
Science RatingC+B
Ordered1814
Refit22652270
Decommissioned22952294

Note how the Constitution has half the multi-target rating of the Excalibur, and near half the phaser coverage?
Which is because the Excalibur has 6x phaser banks, while the Constitution has 3x

Same with the single target damage and alpha strike:
The Excalibur has a five torpedo salvo [1 rapid + 2 standard]
The Connie has a three torpedo salvo[1x rapid ]

The figures are there for you to check and work out for yourself; seems pretty conclusive to me
 
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I agree with (B), but not (A); the Keas were so useful as line anchors for two reasons: beefy shields, and great phaser coverage for swarm-swatting. So I kinda think swarm-swatting is this thing's job- if the formation can maneuver to engage the enemy cruisers without enemy light combatants nipping at their heels, because the Feddie's phaser envelope is an all-round-or-close-to zone of death for said raider types, then it's doing its job correctly.

It is a fair point to note that the Kea was useful for engaging swarms of BoPs in the last war, that seems to just be stated textually. However I think we've already overshot the optimal price point and capabilities for doing that.

Basically, because (it is a popular opinion that) double-digit percentage increase in ST and α doesn't actually translate to a double-digit percentage in how much work the class will get done over the course of its service life. Pushing it from- pulling some numbers out of my ass here- "peer opponent for two K'Tingas" to "peer opponent for three K'Tingas" is only worth more than getting 10% more ships built if you expect to get jumped by three K'Tingas more than 10% of the time.

(Or, conceivably, if you're actually expecting a lot of all-out wars and expect to actually need the damn thing to anchor fleet engagements against enemy capital fleets [as per its design role] frequently- and most of us, while recognizing that that is the requested role and we do need to be competent at it, don't expect the design to actually find itself anchoring major fleet engagements at all.)

Otherwise, having 10% more hulls will mean getting 10% more patrolling and 10% more science and 10% more emergency-response and 10% more diplomacy and 10% more pirate-hunting done over the course of the next century- and also increases the odds that the fleet will be large enough to be worth designing and implementing a refit for, when the Warp 9 core and the next-gen torpedoes and phasers and shields and nacelles are all available, and maybe even again with the Warp 9.5 core.

(Also, I kinda think "enough to beat current- and next-gen enemy heavy cruisers" really is enough, because there just...aren't any enemy battleships that we're aware of.)

It sorta depends how we're phrasing the question? If we rephrase that as "the ship will destroy three K'Tinga before it is destroyed" versus "the ship will destroy two K'Tinga before it's destroyed", then yeah, for a 10% cost increase that's a worthwhile trade-off on the face of it IMO. Like, it's also a made-up scenario purely for comparison with made-up numbers so then going down a rabbit hole of where a Federation might actually fight three K'Tinga at once once is sort of a red herring?

Large fleet actions where our capital ships might have to engage multiple other enemy ones was definitely a feature of the last war, and is the whole impetus for the Project. Equally, the ability to destroy X% more ships in aggregate also means you can destroy individual ships more quickly and reliably. Really the trade-off here is do we want basically a mother goose for our lighter cruisers, or a flagship which can both screen other cruisers *and* packs such a big punch that it will kill enemy capital ships. The latter is necessarily a much more expensive, specialised design, but not necessarily any less valid or useful of one.

As I've said previously, I'd personally have been quite happy designing the Kea Mk. II, but then we gave this design extremely expensive features which make sense for a flagship and no sense for something whose only job is to essentially sit still and get shot at. So I'd prefer we end up designing a good flagship, rather than a somewhat overpriced bodyguard for Mirandas (who individually outmass an Excalibur and really don't need protecting like the Newton did) which has features it does not need.

But again like, this isn't really a vote for what ship we want because that's decided, it's just about what gets the best value out of the ship we have. Unless we have a DeLoran and can get it up to 88mph, we can't make this an economical heavy cruiser.
 
Man, the Excalibur at 8.6 compared to the D7 8.2 max warp. That's not just a little bit faster, that's blowing them away so fast they don't even have a chance to fire.

The Excalibur also has a shield rating of 36, at 180k with the Fed hitting at least 75 at 300k. So we at least over doubled our shield strength without doubling our mass.

This thing is a -wall-
 
Man, the Excalibur at 8.6 compared to the D7 8.2 max warp. That's not just a little bit faster, that's blowing them away so fast they don't even have a chance to fire.

The Excalibur also has a shield rating of 36, at 180k with the Fed hitting at least 75 at 300k. So we at least over doubled our shield strength without doubling our mass.

This thing is a -wall-
Our boy so chonky we should call it the Chungus-Class
 
The jump from the D6 to D7 was a ~50% increase in shield power for 60kt or double the mass (20 shield -> 30 shield, 60kt -> 120kt), the jump from the D7 to K'tinga was a ~66% increase in shield power for a 60kt or 50% mass increase (30 shield -> 50 shield, 120kt -> 180kt).

I doubt the Klingons will be able to more than double the shield strength from a 45kt increase to mass, even more so since they don't have a technologically superior civilization to salvage tech off of to jumpstart technological breakthroughs like we do.

Edit:
Full Klingon Warbook for stat reference's:
Im not discussing mass, Im discussing tech

The K'tinga, at 180kt and 50 shields, has shield power of 27.7 per 100kt
We dont know if thats light, standard or heavy; I made a mistake in my original math, but it turns out not to matter
If its normal or covariant or paratrinic shields or something else, we dont know

For reference, our heaviest shields are 25 power per 100kt
And the Excalibur at 180kt has 36 shields to the K'tinga's 50 shields at the same weight
 
No they are not; see how the canon Miranda is equipped with Type-7 phasers, when we just invented Type-5s
And the canon Miranda is a Warp Nine ship
This is an insane level of hairsplitting. Everything would seem to indicate that the Project Miranda that San Francisco is working on Right Now is the quest-canon version of the Miranda, just moved up ten years or so because everything else got moved up a little. And even if the phasers we currently have are weaker, it would make sense to still use the same number because the mounts can be refitted (and must be, if the ship is still in service by TNG). As can the warp core.

Note how the Constitution has half the multi-target rating of the Excalibur, and near half the phaser coverage?
Which is because the Excalibur has 6x phaser banks, while the Constitution has 3x
What are you talking about? The Excalibur has three phaser banks:
[X] Ventral Banks (2 Phaser Banks) (Cost 65 -> 73) [Second Tranche: 59 -> 67]
[X] Aft Phaser, Aft Torpedo (Cost 73 -> 79.25) [Second Tranche: 67 -> 73.25]
The Callie's higher multi-target rating and coverage comes from having a tail gun as standard, covering more angles than the Connie does.
 
The K'tinga, at 180kt and 50 shields, has shield power of 27.7 per 100kt
We dont know if thats light, standard or heavy; I made a mistake in my original math, but it turns out not to matter
If its normal or covariant or paratrinic shields or something else, we dont know

For reference, our heaviest shields are 25 power per 100kt
To be fair, had we gone for the shield boost with the warp core we would be hitting 27.5 per 100kt. However, that's our heavy and I do suspect that was their standard.

they're the mad lads that went with the 15° phasers and medium speed lol

Gotta get that A rating for cost somehow!
 
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This is an insane level of hairsplitting. Everything would seem to indicate that the Project Miranda that San Francisco is working on Right Now is the quest-canon version of the Miranda, just moved up ten years or so because everything else got moved up a little. And even if the phasers we currently have are weaker, it would make sense to still use the same number because the mounts can be refitted (and must be, if the ship is still in service by TNG). As can the warp core.
Last I checked, we dont have a Warp 9 engine

I genuinely dont know what to tell you at this point
If you sincerely believe that the quest-Miranda here is going to be more heavily armed than the Callie, with 8x phasers and 4x torpedos, and be an affordable ship? Well. Im obviously not going to dissuade you

Best to see what San Fran produces
What are you talking about? The Excalibur has three phaser banks:
This I actually made a mistake; Ive had the Kea on the brain, and quoted its phaser loadout
My apologies
 
[X] Rollbar Nacelle Supports (+2 Fore/Aft Torpedo Mounts),

Sorry, but Starfleet needs a dreadnaut anyway. The federation has already seen what happens when you penny pinch, and a big new flagship will show everyone domestic and foreign that we learnt the lessen.
 
with 8x phasers and 4x torpedos, and be an affordable ship?
We as voters never could make it as an affordable ship because we like RFLs and prototypes too much. If the SF design team only uses mature components though that combination costs 33. With mature techs 3 forward torpedoes and 2 phasers is like 90 burst right?

They're leaving a lot of damage potential on the table. Even with a prototype and mature mix I can't imagine the thread getting that number of weapons for less than 46. It seems more likely we'd get a cost of 50 if two of the phasers are Type-II instead of a full Type-V loadout.
 
Personally for phasers I kinda wanna vote for the most possible even though we still have the only 2 can fire at the same time (still think that's a stupid rule that undercut the threads choices heavy with how late it was introduced our whole thing was gonna be low damage but we can get alot of them on target..)
 
And the Excalibur at 180kt has 36 shields to the K'tinga's 50 shields at the same weight
In fairness, the Excalibur has last-gen shields (Type 1 Heavy); the Excalibur-IIs (post-refit) will have 44 shields (Heavy Covarient), which is...still behind, yes, but really not very far behind at all. (They might even have more if we get the Type-2 shields prototyped before their refit happens.)
 
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