Linked contents
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
It's supposed to be a poweful warship, but we do want to keep the cost down when the benefit doesn't justify it:
They want a ship that can take hits, hit back hard, and be relatively spammable. Going for the most expensive shield option definitely hurts the 'relatively spammable' part of the objective, as it cuts the first trache's size by nearly 20 %. Whether that's worth it or not is entirely a matter of opinion, it's true, but personally I don't think it is.
On an entirely separate issue, if we get a bad tech roll we lose durability for the first batch of ships. This doesn't seem like the best time to be taking that particular risk.
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Iridium Flare
Cyborg Commando
- Location
- AC-130 Gunship circling overhead
Excellent point. I think we've absolutely nailed tactical capability, and given its under-tonnage status we can very likely slam it out in the vast majority of federation shipyards. Cost, well, doesn't much matter when there's a war on and Starfleet's answer to budget is 'yes'.
- Location
- west
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
Same effectiveness now, cheaper and thanks to the Pharos able to be refit to large covariants close to the front.
Same effectiveness now, cheaper and thanks to the Pharos able to be refit to large covariants close to the front.
These seem like odd positions when the reality is that all to often new technology was pushed pretty heavily ahead of time. Investment was made all the time, it's how we ended up with what are clearly ahead of time thrusters.
The reason the Klingons are willing to go to war with us now, is not because we weren't willing to invest. It's because we turned out to be willing to invest to much, pushing our warp technology way ahead of the curve, but at the cost of not being able to keep our current ships in the fight as much.
Thus here we are and the argument is being made we need to invest in the future, so we can save the present. But this sounds strange to me, how do you save the present with the future? We already made investments and while they caused us some problems, we have far faster ships for it.
Another way of looking at is that apparent Heavy Standard were what the original Constitution went with, and that was enough for it being a brawler like ship. In some ways that's already more then what this ship strictly needs and having it would make it an immense powerful combatant compared to the original. Thus what exactly is the case for far more expensive newer shields? What exactly are those gaining you ability wise? What will the ship be able to do with it that it can not do already then?
So unless the D7 is some how despite possibly being out early in this time line, some how being vastly more powerful. It doesn't really make sense. We should already probably be able to overwhelm D7 as it is, quite possibly the current design could destroy a D7 with escort at the same time.
Thus all I can see is:
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
An option that already makes it overpowered, but lets an extra ship or two be launched at least.
Sarpedon
Knight Errant
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Our ability to mass produce hulls is dependent on the cost lol.
I don't think that quest system is in use anymore.
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 ->103.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 ->103.25]
- Location
- United States
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75
Well, everything aside from this ship is stuck on Warp 7, so it all needs to be replaced at some point. Since we're preparing for war we probably want a cheaper frigate or something first though.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Lazy math, there were 14 Connies in prime canon, each costing 84, for a total of 1176 'cost units' spent on the class ignoring tranches. Using that same pool, if we go with heavy covariant we have 10 of our battle Connies. Standard covariant gives us 11, and heavy standard gives us 12. Again, these numbers are all ignoring tranches because I'm lazy.
Votes aren't open for another 7 minutes, people.
I'm not touching this.
No Klingon would dishonour themselves with performance-enhancing drugs. Except Duras. Duras does drugs. Don't be like Duras.
Really though, the D7 isn't a heavy ship. I'd be surprised if it breaks 100kt. It's just Klingon weapon and shield tech is nakedly better than yours.
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- Location
- west
The only argument for standard covariant shields seems to be getting the shiny even if it's the same but worse overall compared to the cheaper option.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
This idea of "the canon Federation did fine" is extremely deceptive, because the canon Federation had at this time already started with upgrading its existing fleet to Warp 8 engines, possessed superior power phasers that allowed them to be closer to primary weapons rather than secondary weapons, and likely had a more tactically capable standing fleet, as we have frequently treated tactical capabilities as a dump stat for everything that's not an Explorer.
So no, I do not at all believe that just because it was adequate in canon it will be adequate herein.
- Location
- Australia
Damn my trusting nature for not verifying when other people posted. deleting vote now.
Endorfinator
Awkwardly Social
- Location
- California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think assuming we'd wait another 60 years before the next generation of shields is a little absurd. In the first interation of the quest we had Type 8 shields by the late 2360s. If it was taking 60 years per generation we wouldn't reach type eight until 2590.
Obviously that is not the case. Something weird has been going on with shield development, and I think we're due a breakthrough sometime soon and a more reasonable generation turn over rate.
There is no budget.
Some people are screaming that there is a budget, and that we are already way over it; they are comparing our build to the cost we've been given for a canon Constitution.
I believe this comparison is unhelpful, for a number of reasons.
1) In-universe, nobody else 'knows' about the canon Connie. The Ship Procurement Board (or whoever) isn't going to be wringing their hands about how our ship is so much more expensive than it 'should have been'; they don't know anything about that alternate timeline. What they will see is their two best (only?) ship design groups jointly coming to them and saying "here, this is the best ship we could possibly build you."
Some may think our ship may still wind up a little too rich for their blood. Bear with me.
2) It has been acknowledged that our Federation is wealthier than canon, due to our success with the Pharos and Archer. This is not a sufficient justification on its own, but it does provide a multiplicative effect for the other arguments.
3) This is the big one: Starfleet asked us to design an actual warship; Starfleet hates building warships, yet they specifically requested one this time. This is because Starfleet knows that none of our other ships can stand up to Klingon heavies, in speed or firepower. We can't upgrade our fleet to Warp 8, so whatever this ship is, it has to be able to stand in for the rest of the fleet.
I'm of the opinion that Starfleet is going to build as many of this ship as it can fit into berths.
(and it's small enough to fit into a lot of berths)
---
The brief we were given:
A lot of folks are focusing on the "the cheaper the better" part. I'm of the opinion that we kinda meet that criteria by default.
We could, given free reign, have designed something huge - that is our typical MO. Instead of designing the biggest baddest most expensive fleetkiller ever, we were restricted to a brief of "around two hundred thousand tons", and we actually went under that at 180kt. Our hull choices have already restricted module bloat, as evidenced by ongoing complaints that it's impossible to make this ship into a proper Explorer.
That's good. A proper Explorer would be expensive; this is us building a cheap ship.
We have bought: smaller hull, better armor, fancier engines, more forward torpedos, fewer forward phasers, and fuller rear armament than we could have otherwise. I believe the two Type 3 thrusters should have been 3xT2s, but every other choice we have made has either been for cost savings, or (im my opinion) has been "tactically justifiable".
Now we're picking shields. I think Heavy Covariant might be a bit pricey, but it still could be justified with increased survivability. Heavy Type 1 or Standard Covariant are perfectly in line with the requested ability to "take a punch".
---
In summary: we don't need to worry about cost; this is turning out to be a very capable ship, not a boondoggle.
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