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Starfleet Design Bureau

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Honestly, I'm firmly of the opinion that we should keep giving our ships substantial teeth - both because the Federation is essentially going through a Warp 8 Fleet Program, which means every ship that comes out needs to be capable of being used in combat successfully (see also the Newtons being pressed into service as line cruisers - if the Gorn try something similar against the Warp 8 fleet, the Darwins are set up to be much better auxiliary combatants, because they're just as maneuverable, better armed, and better defended).

Not to mention, if we can keep Starfleet from getting too complacent on "design ships that can fight in addition to what they normally do", we might be able to de-rail some of the moments where Starfleet getting complacent led to them getting kicked in the teeth later - see also the Borg and the Dominion War.
 
Steven Kodaly said:
I'll thank you kindly not to be snippy; it's not constructive or otherwise helpful.
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I don't see how a synonym for "Right away" or "Immediately" is snippy. Because it wasn't, I was simply pointing out all our ships need to be able to fight right now or else we will get invaded by someone again and given the state of our fleet we really can't handle that. Another major invasion on the heels of this one would at minimum cause us to lose member worlds either from the invasion itself or the vote of no confidence a world might go through if they see Starfleet as an utterly ineffective fleet or peace time ships unable to defend its constituents from hostile action and a desire to go it alone so they might be able to fight off threats with a better utilization of resources. Either would be disastrous for the Federation as a whole.
Ash19256 said:
Honestly, I'm firmly of the opinion that we should keep giving our ships substantial teeth - both because the Federation is essentially going through a Warp 8 Fleet Program, which means every ship that comes out needs to be capable of being used in combat successfully (see also the Newtons being pressed into service as line cruisers - if the Gorn try something similar against the Warp 8 fleet, the Darwins are set up to be much better auxiliary combatants, because they're just as maneuverable, better armed, and better defended).

Not to mention, if we can keep Starfleet from getting too complacent on "design ships that can fight in addition to what they normally do", we might be able to de-rail some of the moments where Starfleet getting complacent led to them getting kicked in the teeth later - see also the Borg and the Dominion War.
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Basically, although given how entirely obscenely overpowered the Borg are, I doubt that particular beat will be averted. Regardless we are sitting at a time and place where due to a lack of shipframes, a massive expanse of territory and very hostile neighbors every ship has to be able to fight. Because otherwise we are going to get invaded again and even more core world losses and infrastructure losses might fracture the Federation even if the invasion is unsuccessful.
 
I'm honestly surprised that after the trauma of the war, Starfleet didn't want to build a lot of Excaliburs 'just in case'.
 
In regards to giving everything teeth.

We Americans learned the hard way that someone has to be the World Police. The UK took that watch before us, and happily let us take it onto our shoulders.

Starfleet has been reminded that such a watch needs to be stood. And it appears that the constituent members of the UFP can no longer handle that watch. So it is time for Starfleet to be the Quadrant Police. Though unlike America's predecessor, Starfleet's predecessors will be parts of the Quadrant Police.

Thankfully, Starfleet is better than America in the areas of ethics and morals. Sure, there's still some corruption, but most of the ill-intended just find ways to avoid work (including not joining Starfleet) while only the brightest are accepted into Starfleet. Truly, a Post Scarcity Society is a wondrous thing for rooting out corruption.
 
Ash19256 said:
Honestly, I'm firmly of the opinion that we should keep giving our ships substantial teeth - both because the Federation is essentially going through a Warp 8 Fleet Program, which means every ship that comes out needs to be capable of being used in combat successfully (see also the Newtons being pressed into service as line cruisers - if the Gorn try something similar against the Warp 8 fleet, the Darwins are set up to be much better auxiliary combatants, because they're just as maneuverable, better armed, and better defended).
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I agree because what I think this has shown is that Starfleet simply doesn't make enough pure combatants to field a competitive navy, so other ships defacto have to act as a reserve when things go sour.
 
Personally my preference is for Starfleet to build a proper military fleet - Probably among the bigger ships - in order to enable the existence of ships which are (relative) noncombatants.

Instead of forcing every ship to be a combatant.
 
ScyBlade said:
In regards to giving everything teeth.

We Americans learned the hard way that someone has to be the World Police. The UK took that watch before us, and happily let us take it onto our shoulders.

Starfleet has been reminded that such a watch needs to be stood. And it appears that the constituent members of the UFP can no longer handle that watch. So it is time for Starfleet to be the Quadrant Police. Though unlike America's predecessor, Starfleet's predecessors will be parts of the Quadrant Police.

Thankfully, Starfleet is better than America in the areas of ethics and morals. Sure, there's still some corruption, but most of the ill-intended just find ways to avoid work (including not joining Starfleet) while only the brightest are accepted into Starfleet. Truly, a Post Scarcity Society is a wondrous thing for rooting out corruption.
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I mean, the whole idea of being the Quadrant Police kind of runs head first into the Prime Directive. We're not about that. The galaxy doesn't have a 'rules based interstellar order' for someone to enforce, there's no UN or NATO equivalents, it's everyone for themselves. The closest we ever get to the UN is Nimbus III.

And in that light yes, we absolutely need armed ships to defend ourselves and deter opportunism.
 
Ebiris said:
I mean, the whole idea of being the Quadrant Police kind of runs head first into the Prime Directive. We're not about that. The galaxy doesn't have a 'rules based interstellar order' for someone to enforce, there's no UN or NATO equivalents, it's everyone for themselves. The closest we ever get to the UN is Nimbus III.

And in that light yes, we absolutely need armed ships to defend ourselves and deter opportunism.
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We need to remember that Rodenberry envisioned Star Trek as the age of sail in space. Apart from the possibility of subspace coms providing faster communications, it still holds true - ships of exploring the vast oceans expanse of stars, weeks from any friendly port. All on their own if they encounter something or a French/Spanish ship Klingon ship (I'm British). In these times, the Admirality trusted their captains with the authority to act upon their own discretion, with orders that only loosely said what to do (can't do anything better when the information/decision loop could be up to 2 years) and built their ships to face these perilous unknowns.
Our ships need to be able to map these wild frontiers, chart the unknown star systems, science the new & strange, withstand the storms and defend against hostile natives. Our captains who we entrust with these mighty vessels and the lives of their crew - explorer, scientist and defender. Entrusted with the authority to make first Contact, make opening treaties with new species and the wisdom to make it something that the Federation would willingly accept, and the wisdom of when to stand & fight and when to run.
 
Magnificate said:
[X] Plant Sciences (+8 Science) [Specialisations: Exobiology, Biochemistry, Plant Sciences]

EDIT: Now that I think about it, wasn't there a flower that merged people during transport?
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Yup, all the advance medical lab did was point out that two crewmen were merged. Not how to cure or fix it. Which would had been avoided if they had someone scouting ahead to tell people a flower on this planet reacts weirdly to transporters so double check and avoid at all cost on having this on your person, wait for the ship to land first.
 
Shard said:
Personally my preference is for Starfleet to build a proper military fleet - Probably among the bigger ships - in order to enable the existence of ships which are (relative) noncombatants.

Instead of forcing every ship to be a combatant.
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Instead of half-ass'ing it, we should make ALL our ships into first-rate combatants!

Imagine the Klingon Captain pounding his fists on the armrests of his chair while smoke and sparks fill the bridge. "Target one of their weak science vessels instead!" "Sir, they have no weak vessels!"
 
Shard said:
Personally my preference is for Starfleet to build a proper military fleet - Probably among the bigger ships - in order to enable the existence of ships which are (relative) noncombatants.

Instead of forcing every ship to be a combatant.
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Issue is larger ships stop getting killier past a certain point. Instead they get more room to do skill things. Like the Galaxy class. It's about as killy as Starfleet can manage at the time, but it has so much room you get a bunch of neat nerd stuff too. The issue is such ships are incredibly expensive and are as capitol ships, something a polity with a balanced navy should have comparatively fewer of due to said expense. Because of how big and costly they are they are difficult to maintain, replace making using them risky, and with how few of them there are territorial control is vastly more difficult than having two or three smaller ships patrolling in the same general area.

Frankly the Sharks(Selachii) class are perfect patrol frigates, they were nasty fighters, hit decently hard for their level and could be made relatively easily, especially compared to the Sagas. Issue is the Shark is woefully outdated. It's running phaser ones, a Warp seven engine, likely has a standard if not light Type 1 shield, and has type 2 engines, in addition to having very outdated hull material. While it could be a threat to a BoP, it's basically useless against anything that doesn't have a defense rating of paper mache and we've seen that play out in this conflict. Sharks just can't pen the enemy defenses fast enough to matter.



KlavoHunter said:
Instead of half-ass'ing it, we should make ALL our ships into first-rate combatants!

Imagine the Klingon Captain pounding his fists on the armrests of his chair while smoke and sparks fill the bridge. "Target one of their weak science vessels instead!" "Sir, they have no weak vessels!"
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Not really possible given how the design process for Starfleet is. Either we get BEEG ship that can do everything well but costs us two limbs and a kidney equivalent, or smaller more economical designs that won't make our accountants and bureaucrats try to strangle us and our families in our sleep but has a narrower focus, typically choosing between Fighting, Engineering or Science. Some designs can even do two pretty well, but never all three.
 
Yah know, with how canon starfleet was, Id figured they can dish out the cash (or whatever) and build hundreds of starships in a couple years.

Edit: It is after all multiple space civilizations some hundreds if not thousands of years old all pooling their resources and technology into starfleet.
 
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zac1 said:
Yah know, with how canon starfleet was, Id figured they can dish out the cash (or whatever) and build hundreds of starships in a couple years.

Edit: It is after all multiple space civilizations some hundreds if not thousands of years old all pooling their resources and technology into starfleet.
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Starfleet's post scarcity but also maybe not really post scarcity depending on writer economy aside, the issue likely come down to a few things, namely Yard Space, Personnel availability, Time and Political Interference. It still took years for the Crash Build Excaliburs to be built, which means that there is either a supply bottleneck, or more likely only so much that the process of building them can be rushed. Money or the equivalent of it can only expedite things so much, especially if you are unready or lacking other key things for the process. Ideally Starfleet should be ten times the size it was given the sheer number of worlds and how much of an industrial base each had, but they don't. Which means that there has to be a bottleneck to that somewhere.
 
zac1 said:
Yah know, with how canon starfleet was, Id figured they can dish out the cash (or whatever) and build hundreds of starships in a couple years.

Edit: It is after all multiple space civilizations some hundreds if not thousands of years old all pooling their resources and technology into starfleet.
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I think that's meant to demonstrate exactly how expensive and difficult these ships are to build and maintain. Though, the exact reasoning might vary. Is it rare exotic warp core materials? Is it the tolerances on the computer cores requiring hundreds of attempts to get one? Is it treaties with foreign powers limiting the amount of objects capable of annihilating planets?
Whatever the reason, there has to be one.

but whatever the limitation, It's also the reason Starfleet manage to have such crazy standards for their crew, at least as demonstrated at the next generation time period.
I mean for the command staff, Wesley had to compete with the smartest young minds in a huge area of space and only one gets selected.

That's kinda nuts.
 
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CuriousRaptor said:
Issue is larger ships stop getting killier past a certain point. Instead they get more room to do skill things. Like the Galaxy class. It's about as killy as Starfleet can manage at the time, but it has so much room you get a bunch of neat nerd stuff too. The issue is such ships are incredibly expensive and are as capitol ships, something a polity with a balanced navy should have comparatively fewer of due to said expense. Because of how big and costly they are they are difficult to maintain, replace making using them risky, and with how few of them there are territorial control is vastly more difficult than having two or three smaller ships patrolling in the same general area.

Frankly the Sharks(Selachii) class are perfect patrol frigates, they were nasty fighters, hit decently hard for their level and could be made relatively easily, especially compared to the Sagas. Issue is the Shark is woefully outdated. It's running phaser ones, a Warp seven engine, likely has a standard if not light Type 1 shield, and has type 2 engines, in addition to having very outdated hull material. While it could be a threat to a BoP, it's basically useless against anything that doesn't have a defense rating of paper mache and we've seen that play out in this conflict. Sharks just can't pen the enemy defenses fast enough to matter.




Not really possible given how the design process for Starfleet is. Either we get BEEG ship that can do everything well but costs us two limbs and a kidney equivalent, or smaller more economical designs that won't make our accountants and bureaucrats try to strangle us and our families in our sleep but has a narrower focus, typically choosing between Fighting, Engineering or Science. Some designs can even do two pretty well, but never all three.
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Personally, I think we need to design a new Shark class like ship... the issue is some people in this thread seem to a allergy to thinking of ways to creat patrol frigates
 
Hot co co said:
Personally, I think we need to design a new Shark class like ship... the issue is some people in this thread seem to a allergy to thinking of ways to creat patrol frigates
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If Starfleet Command asks us for a patrol frigate, we'll design a patrol frigate. But if it asks us for something else, it's well beyond our pay grade to decide we really ought to give it a patrol frigate instead.
 
[X] Advanced Medical (+6 Science) [Specialisations: Exobiology, Advanced Medicine]

Shard said:
Personally my preference is for Starfleet to build a proper military fleet - Probably among the bigger ships - in order to enable the existence of ships which are (relative) noncombatants.

Instead of forcing every ship to be a combatant.
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You can never guarantee that the first thing to respond is going to be the right kind of ship, so everything is to some degree a generalist. But the consequences are not all the same. Mitigating action, stalling to buy time and reduce casualties, is usually possible for engineering or medical challenges. They can be vast, lethal, and fast-acting enough to wipe out a colony before a specialist can turn up, but they usually aren't. Combat tends to be much more decisively resolved. Every ship to have a fighting chance is a pretty respectable position because of that.
 
Night said:
[X] Advanced Medical (+6 Science) [Specialisations: Exobiology, Advanced Medicine]



You can never guarantee that the first thing to respond is going to be the right kind of ship, so everything is to some degree a generalist. But the consequences are not all the same. Mitigating action, stalling to buy time and reduce casualties, is usually possible for engineering or medical challenges. They can be vast, lethal, and fast-acting enough to wipe out a colony before a specialist can turn up, but they usually aren't. Combat tends to be much more decisively resolved. Every ship to have a fighting chance is a pretty respectable position because of that.
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Yeah but we arent making a medical vessel.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
If Starfleet Command asks us for a patrol frigate, we'll design a patrol frigate. But if it asks us for something else, it's well beyond our pay grade to decide we really ought to give it a patrol frigate instead.
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...I kinda hate to argue this because I'm generally in the "I don't want sixty or eighty patrol frigates, I want forty new light cruisers and a dozen more callies" camp, but. It demonstrably is in our remit to give Starfleet what we think they need, not what they actually asked for. Like, the Stingray is probably the only time were outright nope'd a request wholesale, but we have twisted and bent the requests to fit our own ideas many, many times, and Starfleet has generally gone along with it. The Federation, culturally, tends to trust its own experts. If the design bureau boffins hand them a design that can do the requested job at all, the general inclination is to trust they had good reason for any unexpected eccentricities in that design. A few more or less might be ordered in the first round, but the ship will still get made.

I mean there are limits to what we can get away with? But they're preeeeeetty dang high.

tl;dr i agree with your position but not your argument; it kinda is our pay grade, actually.
 
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