"The world doesn't work like that for us, girl," she says. "And all I gotta do is wait until things fall apart, until your guard slips, and I'll be out again. And you better watch your back when that day comes."
[X] "You know, this sounds suspiciously like you're trying to convince me to kill you. Luckily for you, even if you were suicidal enough to try and do that, you're not going to succeed. Maybe the world used to work like you're saying, but that stops now. I will make it work like I want it to." *Serene_smile.exe*
-[X] "Now, instead of coming up with cartoon supervillain clichees to quote at me, you may want to consider how you're going to fit into that new world, going forward, or what you're going to say during your trial, but it's up to you. So if there wasn't anything else, please have a nice day."
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
 
[x] "Thank you. My schedule's packed enough as it is without having to coax your redeeming qualities out, so I really appreciate your refusal to have any."
[x] Go talk to Anri.
 
[x] "Try talking to Yuki. She thinks a lot more like you than I do."
[x] Go talk to Anri.

Something that might actually produce a result of some sort.
 
This lady is written well but she's clearly being dime a dozen with her social darwinisim.
To be fair, she's the leader of a gang of murderhobos. It was either that or having her be a Jack Slash-style "just in it for the lulz" type.

Flexing our powers only looks like something she understands: a naked power play to soothe a bruised ego of our own.
On the other hand, the addition of the "How do you like my exit? Call 1-800-SABRINA" card is both hilarious and not the kind of thing you'd expect from an actual power play.

On a semi-unrelated note, it occurs to me that 1-800-SABRINA is in fact a valid phone number. I wonder if Hackerguca could rig it to forward to our cell phone.
 
[x] Redshirt Army

We really don't need to do anything about this right now. Heck, letting her stew for a bit might actually help us out here.

Also, I know I haven't been very much of a participant in a bit. That being said, when it's time to start actually putting pen to paper and saying "here's the laws we want to hold ourselves to, here's the bright red lines, here's the wiggle room", well... I'm MORE than ready to hop back in and start pitching stuff, debating, refining, etc.~
 
That being said, when it's time to start actually putting pen to paper and saying "here's the laws we want to hold ourselves to, here's the bright red lines, here's the wiggle room", well... I'm MORE than ready to hop back in and start pitching stuff, debating, refining, etc.~
Prosecutor Homura: "You stand accused of piracy, attempted murder, and conspiracy to endanger the Kaname household."
Captain Parro: "Endanger the what?"
Homura: "It's in Mitakihara."
Parro: "Okay, but, why that particular...?"
Public Defender Kirika: slaps a sleeve over Parro's mouth "My client has no further questions about the nature of the third charge."
 
[x] Maybe she's right, and you'll fuck things up. Maybe everything will come crashing down, and things will go right back to the status quo. There are no guarantees.
-[x] But you don't think leaving her and her girls alive is going to be the big mistake, the one that triggers the fall. Because frankly, they aren't that special. Just another group who did awful things in an awful system.
[x] You're going to be busy trying to make things better, and probably won't be by for another few weeks. If they have anything particularly important to say at some point, you might take a message. Goodbye.
-[x] In the meantime, she should try talking to Yuki. She thinks a lot more like her than you do.
[x] Go talk to Anri.
-[x] Vote in abeyance for topics.

Tacked on Torgamous's latest vote to Redshirt Army's
 
"The world doesn't work like that for us, girl," she says
Mhmh. Well, she is wrong but in the same time she kind of isnt. World really doesnt work like that normally (both irl and especially meguca one) but with Madoka's Wish working overtime and Sabrina being walking cheat code it just might work like that.

[X] Redshirt Army
 
Mhmh. Well, she is wrong but in the same time she kind of isnt. World really doesnt work like that normally (both irl and especially meguca one) but with Madoka's Wish working overtime and Sabrina being walking cheat code it just might work like that.

No she is completely wrong. It's just that IRL the reason most people don't get good endings and friendships galore like in this story is because most people never go beyond a childish view of morality. Our world is filled with examples of people just flat out ignoring facts and solutions that would help them because using them requires first thinking about things they don't like to think about or even just doing things they feel incapable of.

A cousin of mine for instance fell in love with a woman recently and being rejected after asking her out he spun out this ridiculous rationalization that he's the problem and that he cannot possibly change to be with this woman without at any point describing anything about this woman that caught his eye other than her appearance.

From his point of view he knows what he would have to do to win her over and he just doesn't want to do it. I have no idea if what he told me is true, if that woman is in any way interested in him nor do I have any idea how long he has known her.

Same with world governments.

The UN is looked on as this failed project by everyone and so they always cheat in some way when dealing with international matters while at the same time failing to realize that if everyone agrees to use the UN as their own tool then the UN unlike the Concordat of Europe or the League of Nations is a true global organization and a foundation on which better things can be built.

The most basic reason why someone like Sabrina doesn't exists in real life is because the concentration of power that was needed to create Sabrina is unbound from the rest of the Human Race and so could be accumulated. In real life people like Sabrina don't sit on power enough to accumulate it to the level Sabrina was born/created with because they keep spending their power to help people.

In Madoka it is Kyubey that is putting its grubby little paws on the scales to keep the world miserable and that is the final boss of this quest in whatever form we face the white rat in the end. Parró is just flat out wrong and a part of the problem at the same time.
 
Not just thinking but also doing things that they dont like or disagree with. You have to trust that the other guy will also do the right thing and not screw you over for his own profit. I feel like you oversimplify the issue, by a lot. In a world of kind and selfless people one smart and greedy bastard is all it takes to send the entire thing collapsing. I am looking back at history and I dont think any society that promoted altruism ever succeeded in any actually meaningful capacity (aka wasnt wiped out or changed drastically anyway down the line). Society and world view can and is changing over time, but just as it changes for the good it can easily be sent tumbling down back and regress back, and we see that a lot constantly; it takes a lot of time and effort to just keep standing where we are now, let alone climb higher. Should we stop trying? No. But claiming that it "just" and the fundamental problem with human world view is "simple" feels like either blind optimism or blissful ignorance.

Trying to build something akin to what Sabrina builds is basically constructing a house of cards; its just Sabrina cheats with glue.

I dont even think its ever possible to build utopia; you have to basically lobotomize human population to do so because no matter how hard you try until people can think for themselves and come to their own conclusions there are always would be those who consider themselves better than others and hence more deserving of things others have.

...I am not actually sure how appropriate this discussion for this thread. It feels on topic at least for the last chapter but, well, its ultimately up to mods.
 
I dont even think its ever possible to build utopia; you have to basically lobotomize human population to do so because no matter how hard you try until people can think for themselves and come to their own conclusions there are always would be those who consider themselves better than others and hence more deserving of things others have.
It's entirely possible to build something that's stable and mostly beneficial to those within it, by rigging up incentive structures so that cunning self-interested types almost always have more to gain by helping out than by making a mess. That's the point of things like transparency and accountability.
 
It's entirely possible to build something that's stable and mostly beneficial to those within it, by rigging up incentive structures so that cunning self-interested types almost always have more to gain by helping out than by making a mess. That's the point of things like transparency and accountability.
That is a good solution but its... how do I even say it? "Soft permanent"? Y-yeah, I'll go with that one. Basically, it works as long as people in control of a system are all for it. But people can be replaced due to numerous reason; just plain dying of old age for example. Someone would have to step up and keep upholding the values. I call it "soft permanent" solution because in theory this can work indefinitely. Old guys get replaced by new ones who keep upholding the values old guard stood for. So on and so on. But, well, its still takes one (or in better system few) bad apples to spoil everything. If, due to any number of reasons, bad actors get in control of this system and start changing it so THEY are the ones who benefit the most it'll all collapse. Which is what happens sooner or later. Which circles back to the whole "human nature" problem.
 
I dont even think its ever possible to build utopia; you have to basically lobotomize human population to do so because no matter how hard you try until people can think for themselves and come to their own conclusions there are always would be those who consider themselves better than others and hence more deserving of things others have.
There have been plenty of very long lived societies that successfully managed that. We're in a lean period due to the last several centuries of active global genocide, but some of them are still around.

To tie it back to PMAS, Parró is absolutely wrong that "no cleansing" doesn't constitute a stick, because she's thinking of it as "Sabrina is saying she will withhold cleansing to ensure obedience." The actual stick is the gradually increasing number of magical girls with infinite cleansing and an interest in stopping anyone who would withhold Sabrina's cleansing. One person who considers themselves better than others and hence more deserving of things others have can't do shit to twenty people saying that no they fucking aren't. This is illustrated by the Iowa group being dismantled the second they looked in our direction.
 
We're in a lean period due to the last several centuries of active global genocide, but some of them are still around.
You do actually see how this is only affirms my view, right?

Also kudos to those who survived that shitshow. I sincerely wish for them to keep going no matter what.

To tie it back to PMAS, Parró is absolutely wrong that "no cleansing" doesn't constitute a stick, because she's thinking of it as "Sabrina is saying she will withhold cleansing to ensure obedience." The actual stick is the gradually increasing number of magical girls with infinite cleansing and an interest in stopping anyone who would withhold Sabrina's cleansing. One person who considers themselves better than others and hence more deserving of things others have can't do shit to twenty people saying that no they fucking aren't. This is illustrated by the Iowa group being dismantled the second they looked in our direction.
I mean duh, I am not arguing against that point. Withholding what is basically food, water and oxygen combined is one hell of a leverage; bonus points that everyone who has access to it can always fight effectively with little regard for wasting magic other than making it to... whatever location would store Clear Seeds or substitutes. I wouldnt be surprised if Twins would get some acolytes because people really might start thanking god that Sabrina is this altruistic given that she holds the entire meguca world at the palm of her hand.

Sabrina basically just cheats when it comes to leverage.

...which kind of circles back to Clear Seeds' distribution and what happens if some Iowa-like bastards get their hands on such thing. I dont actually remember with what last discussion ended if with anything at all. Sure, 20 megucas can gank one crazy guca. What about 5 v 20? 10 v 20? 20 v 20? We ganked Iowa so effectively because combined firepower and battlefield control of Holy... uhhh.... Squad (...does Sabrina and Co have an official name?) is "Fuck off". Most other groups are much more grounded and less numerous (though later can be solved with providing Clear Seeds... which circles back again)

On a kind of separate note its adorable that Iowa think they can escape. Even if they somehow break out of their jail absolutely nothing stops Sabrina and Co from putting them right the fuck back (or even throwing in The Freezer).
 
Not just thinking but also doing things that they dont like or disagree with. You have to trust that the other guy will also do the right thing and not screw you over for his own profit. I feel like you oversimplify the issue, by a lot. In a world of kind and selfless people one smart and greedy bastard is all it takes to send the entire thing collapsing. I am looking back at history and I dont think any society that promoted altruism ever succeeded in any actually meaningful capacity (aka wasnt wiped out or changed drastically anyway down the line). Society and world view can and is changing over time, but just as it changes for the good it can easily be sent tumbling down back and regress back, and we see that a lot constantly; it takes a lot of time and effort to just keep standing where we are now, let alone climb higher. Should we stop trying? No. But claiming that it "just" and the fundamental problem with human world view is "simple" feels like either blind optimism or blissful ignorance.

Trying to build something akin to what Sabrina builds is basically constructing a house of cards; its just Sabrina cheats with glue.

I dont even think its ever possible to build utopia; you have to basically lobotomize human population to do so because no matter how hard you try until people can think for themselves and come to their own conclusions there are always would be those who consider themselves better than others and hence more deserving of things others have.

...I am not actually sure how appropriate this discussion for this thread. It feels on topic at least for the last chapter but, well, its ultimately up to mods.

That is the Prisoner's Dilemma. Doesn't apply to the sort of work we're talking about because said work assumes that people living in a society don't just look at it as a source of punishment and harm. So at least since King Road Drag has been a thing, though if you go read the Bible there are passages there about these sorts of problems, your argument has been flat out wrong.

Please just remove the word altruism out of your thought processes. It is a sabotage word that convinces people that they have to have to commit their entire lives to nothing but helping people in order to do good, poor George R. Price, when in fact being a Good Samaritan and paying attention when people need help and stopping to help when you can is what is needed.

The people who think themselves better than others are like Parró: They excuse their own actions by how bad the world is while actively making it worse. I know plenty of people like that and I know for a fact that they are a minority, it is the people scared of the world so much that they no longer are willing to take risks that are the reason why the world isn't better than it is.

And that fear is really useful for politicians all around the world to fearmonger their way into power. In this quest we need to keep that sort of fear as low as we can while taking out bad actors like Parró as cleanly as we can.
 
Please just remove the word altruism out of your thought processes
I already use this word very loosely. If you devoting everything to helping others you just burning yourself out. Some might view it as virtue; I think people need to take a fucking break. In the terms of this work, I am looking at you, Madoka.

I know plenty of people like that and I know for a fact that they are a minority, it is the people scared of the world so much that they no longer are willing to take risks that are the reason why the world isn't better than it is.
100% this. In my experience most people are apathetic. They not actively malicious but they also dont really care either way. And I cant really blame them. There are days when I wake up and I cant be bothered to feel anything; you just exhausted from the get go and just want to get through the day. Sure, if someone asks you for help, you'll do it. But if something bad happens you'll also walk right past it. Because you are not paid enough to deal with it, because you too exhausted or because what is the point, or any other number of because which you conjure on spot as justification for your inaction.

In this quest we need to keep that sort of fear as low as we can while taking out bad actors like Parró as cleanly as we can.
Which brings us back to Clear Seed distribution conundrum where if we keeping them "in house" people would see us as some sort of tyrants and if we give them freely we actively enabling malicious megucas to do more harm than they already doing. Though I dont think its time for this discussion now; we can talk about that but its not really relevant in story right now. Though I wonder if it ever truly become relevant or it will be moved to epilogue.
 
As "but hey wouldn't Parro's ship be good at fight Walpurgisnact" has been brought up a few times, I think it was mentioned back after the fight that Sayaka power copied everyone in the Iowa group. So we already have our own big boat if I am remembering right.
 
You do actually see how this is only affirms my view, right?
It does not. What you're calling "human nature" is the result of a protracted campaign by the cultures with those values to actively impose them on literally everyone else, to notably less success than they like to claim credit for.

Cultures that functioned for hundreds or even thousands of years don't get to count for nothing in a discussion about cultural stability just because they ended up losing a war with England.
Sure, 20 megucas can gank one crazy guca. What about 5 v 20? 10 v 20? 20 v 20?
No, no, you keep saying one is enough. Stick to your guns.
As "but hey wouldn't Parro's ship be good at fight Walpurgisnact" has been brought up a few times, I think it was mentioned back after the fight that Sayaka power copied everyone in the Iowa group. So we already have our own big boat if I am remembering right.
It's her weapon. Since Sayaka doesn't do weapon copying, it's unclear what she got from Parró.
 
As "but hey wouldn't Parro's ship be good at fight Walpurgisnact" has been brought up a few times, I think it was mentioned back after the fight that Sayaka power copied everyone in the Iowa group. So we already have our own big boat if I am remembering right.
Nah, ship is Wish, cant copy that. Also, no, it wouldnt be that useful. Homura threw at Walpurgis an army's worth of firepower an it shrugged it off. Whatever Iowa can do, Holy Squad (name pending) can do better.

I feel like the official name for Constellation's combat team should be "Shooting Star," or perhaps "Comet" if the former is too long for radio brevity.
I like Shooting Star more; may be Shooting Stars?

It does not. What you're calling "human nature" is the result of a protracted campaign by the cultures with those values to actively impose them on literally everyone else, to notably less success than they like to claim credit for.
I am looking at the world right now, at the past and how long it took for us to climb where we are and respectfully, I disagree that it wasnt a huge success on these cultures part.

No, no, you keep saying one is enough. Stick to your guns.
Sure, here's your scenario: meguca with good potential wishes to have power of mass mind control. Now it doesnt matter if it 2 or 20 gucas against her.
 
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Not a concern for well-informed meguca.
That was IRL example, though I am still not exactly sure how aging and megucas are mesh together.

For gucas its much easier to setup such systems (if someone like Sabrina is present that is).

Why would the enforcement side not also be scaling up? Nobody wants to be the Iowa Group's next victim, vast majority of meguca are willing to fight in self-defense, it's just a question of getting quick responses organized.
Quick response part is what makes me skeptical. We outrageously cheat like the most cheating cheater to ever cheat with Homura's time stop. Most groups probably dont even have teleporters on hand. To squash any and all resistance or most of it at least there should be constant examples of what would happen if someone would try to play dirty. Telepathy helps with cries for help - as long as Kyubey just doesnt shut it down in which case we badly need substitute - but response is a bit trickier.

But teleporting guca SWAT squad sounds kinda fun though.
 
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I am looking at the world right now, at the past and how long it took for us to climb where we are and respectfully, I disagree that it wasnt a huge success on these cultures part.
And that's another thing. "Climb where we are" sounds a lot like you're describing a regular upward trajectory, which not only isn't affirmed by but directly contradicts "we're in a lean period due to the last several centuries of active global genocide."
Quick response part is what makes me skeptical. We outrageously cheat like the most cheating cheater to ever cheat with Homura's time stop. Most groups probably dont even have teleporters on hand. To squash any and all resistance or most of it at least there should be constant examples of what would happen if someone would try to play dirty. Telepathy helps with cries for help - as long as Kyubey just doesnt shut it down in which case we badly need substitute - but response is a bit trickier.
1. Yuki.
2. The tools available to most groups will grow steadily with reduced attrition to filling seeds, and rapidly with increased intercity coordination.
3. "Squash any and all resistance" is Parró brain. We're bribing most resistance. Even among modern meguca, people like Parró who will insist on continuing to kill people absent any economic necessity have proven to be outliers. They will only become less common as future generations of meguca don't need to get used to fighting for basic survival.
 
And that's another thing. "Climb where we are" sounds a lot like you're describing a regular upward trajectory, which not only isn't affirmed by but directly contradicts "we're in a lean period due to the last several centuries of active global genocide."
Even lean period as of now leagues better than what was 100 years ago. And what was 100 years ago leagues better than what was 200 years ago. I also never said that we moving only up; things absolutely can tumble down time to time and they do.

1. Yuki.
2. The tools available to most groups will grow steadily with reduced attrition to filling seeds, and rapidly with increased intercity coordination.
3. "Squash any and all resistance" is Parró brain. We're bribing most resistance. Even among modern meguca, people like Parró who will insist on continuing to kill people absent any economic necessity have proven to be outliers. They will only become less common as future generations of meguca don't need to get used to fighting for basic survival.
1. Fair, though she already does a lot and probably will do more. She however still needs things like downtime. Researching some sort of portal tech (may be even via reverse engineering whatever she does to connect houses with each other?) sounds like a good investment to me.
2. Hence why Teleporting Guca SWAT Squad. Either hire a bunch of teleporters or one mass teleporter and keep them as emergency quick response team.
3. Doesnt mean we wont have to deal with outliers. If anything, it would be easier to spot them when gucas deaths would become rarity and not a norm. Though, I already theorized somewhere that with unlimited magic gucas might start striving for other forms of power like influence or money. Or just get in petty squabbles over nonsense that escalate in full blown conflicts because if you dont need to reserve magic and can tank getting your turned into fine red mist why not spar more freely? (Thats where having Teleporting Guca SWAT Squad will pay off for sure...)
 
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