Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
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She already knows what's up and seems remarkably calm.
She knows they lost, her friends are safe and we aren't going to murder her. What more do you want to explain?
Bad idea = stupid idea, in the sense of not well thought out.
At least to me, that's more or less the same.
I meant the general, long term no fighting. I doubt she will try anything during the negotiations. I just find it strange to point out that we aren't looking for a fight and just want to talk, when everything is already over.
I'll concede on chewing them out, since the majority seems to want it, although I don't really see the point in it, since I doubt they deliberately tried to endanger civilians. The desruction only started after we ripped Moe apart and they probably thought she was dead and lost it a bit emotionally.
About the payment thing:
I get what this part intends to do, but I disagree with meddling there, even if it is just a suggestion.
Yumi is now the officail and brandnew leader of Sendai and should make the decision without us interfering in any way. It's their business and we are dictating and suggesting a lot already anyway.
The only thing we should consider about the status quo is how fast we can tear it down, since the status quo is a mess actively designed to kill girls off and promote infighting. It's not something we want to support any more than necessary.
Better to basically just offer cleansing for all with basic, reasonable conditions, and make sure that system spreads as far as possible as soon as possible to avoid said complications with giving certain groups unfair advantages, or unintended consequences. Groups that don't agree will have less competition for their Seeds anyway with us recycling for their competition. That alone makes agreements with us better. We're not making demands on them beyond "don't kill people".
The biggest argument for pushing our way is that it really is going to be better for everyone in every way when it's fully implemented. The problems you mentioned with giving one side unfair advantages are caused by one group having it while another doesn't yet, so why not hurry to get it to everyone?
Goodwill is nice, but not when we're sacrificing the ability to take action to try and get it. They don't need to like us to consider our offer, only know that we have the ability to come through with our end of the bargain.
You're right about Mami.
Seed loss is a problem that we could do more about, yes. I think we might want to make a point of minimizing said seed loss, more than we already have, and it's one of the reasons we might want to hurry up with this offer.
I think I already said the Kine vote does pretty much the same thing. Basically, my objection to Kine's vote is that the differences come over as inaction for inaction's sake. Basically, we have no good reason not to tell them what we're offering so it's just stalling and dragging it out for another few updates not to do so.
Better to basically just offer cleansing for all with basic, reasonable conditions, and make sure that system spreads as far as possible as soon as possible to avoid said complications with giving certain groups unfair advantages, or unintended consequences. Groups that don't agree will have less competition for their Seeds anyway with us recycling for their competition. That alone makes agreements with us better. We're not making demands on them beyond "don't kill people".
The biggest argument for pushing our way is that it really is going to be better for everyone in every way when it's fully implemented. The problems you mentioned with giving one side unfair advantages are caused by one group having it while another doesn't yet, so why not hurry to get it to everyone?
Goodwill is nice, but not when we're sacrificing the ability to take action to try and get it. They don't need to like us to consider our offer, only know that we have the ability to come through with our end of the bargain.
You're right about Mami.
Seed loss is a problem that we could do more about, yes. I think we might want to make a point of minimizing said seed loss, more than we already have, and it's one of the reasons we might want to hurry up with this offer.
I think I already said the Kine vote does pretty much the same thing. Basically, my objection to Kine's vote is that the differences come over as inaction for inaction's sake. Basically, we have no good reason not to tell them what we're offering so it's just stalling and dragging it out for another few updates not to do so.
tl;dr
Sabrina cleansing doesn't have conditions beyond "don't kill people" unlike the existing favors/agreements that tend to involve infighting, and the Kine vote is stalling when we could just TELL them what we want to offer rather than dragging it out for another couple of days OOC.
aka: Why just mention an offer rather than spelling out what we're offering?
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
You really don't see the authoritarianism inherent to "I'm right, you're wrong, so I should be in charge" do you? Or why people would object to it?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Give them time to diggest everything that's happened. This girl just got in a fight, got mutilated and blasted and lost and is now talking with her enemy and literally no time passed for her between the beating and the talking.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I'd rather show them what we do, give them a demonstration and send them away after arranging a meeting. Give them some time to get their bearings and realize what we're likely to offer and make our offer next time.
Doublepost because some people seeem to agree with the previous one and I don't know how they'd feel about this one I was editing in.
Doublepost because some people seeem to agree with the previous one and I don't know how they'd feel about this one I was editing in.
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If they don't even want to hang around for the sales pitch, then clearly they have no urgent needs they are worrying about. Same if they do hang around, but reject it. Same if they accept it because it seems useful (or conditionally accept it, depending on consultation with the rest of their group). If they have the same desperation in accepting it as UG had when talking to us, then clearly the question was answered in the positive. In no case do we actually have to ask to find out the answer.
Regardless, asking them flat out, "Are you desperate for grief seeds?", just before offering them a way to deal with that sounds very much like we're trying to prey on their desperation.
SWB's post covers this fairly well, so I won't try a repeat explanation.
No, it would be Sendai punishing them for the damage they did to their city. And, as I explicitly said, it's entirely their prerogative. This is just us saying we would like to punish them for that, but we don't have the actual authority to do so (nor are we going to pretend we do, other than the chewing out). It's implicitly acknowledging Sendai's authority in their own city, and that we're not usurping that, despite the fact that we were the ones attacked, and that our coalition beat theirs.
And if multiple people reply? Who are we addressing for the negotiation? Are we negotiating individually with each of them? Are we ignoring one person because we don't like them? Really, just don't want any ambiguity in this.
Well, to me, they're very different. As a rough comparison, a bad idea is one where you expect to lose something when you fail; a stupid idea is one where you expect to not gain anything (and particularly, not what you want). Both, though, do carry the sense of 'not well thought out'.
Ah. I'm not stating that as a proposal, but as an explanation, in the sense of Gilgamesh Wulfenbach's rant. I'm not saying, "I don't want to fight you.", I'm saying, "Everytime I try to talk to someone it turns into a fight."
Hmm. I do understand your objection here. However, as I noted above, this is more than just meddling (though it is a bit of that as well); this is restraint from meddling. This is acknowledging Sendai's authority, despite being the ones being in charge of this talk (and, in fact, because we are the one in charge of this talk). This is providing an option for Yumi to actually express her authority; that is, she is neither merely carrying out Akiko's agreement (if all she did was hand over the seeds without comment), nor being our puppet (unless she does in fact take our suggestion). She has a chance to show exactly where she stands in this.
However, with that in mind, I do want to be sure that this comes off as merely a 'suggestion', not a suggestion. If you think it could be better phrased, I'll see what I can do to adjust it.
1.So what's your reasoning for not adding a clause to actually tell them something about this offer if they do hang around? It doesn't seem like that version does anything except drag things out unnecessarily. Also, not asking is just begging for trouble down the line when we get blindsided by events again. I don't see it as coming over as that.
2.The issue is that Sendai quite obviously doesn't care about the collateral- or at least not enough to object to it while fighting was going on. Respecting Sendai's authority is a valid argument, even if it is a completely useless gesture.
3. Everyone. Yes. No, that's silly. Really, the idea of talking to several people at once if necessary isn't that problematic if they can't get a spokesperson, which is an unlikely scenario in the first place.
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I agree with the sentiment, but I can't think of a wording that doesn't make us sound condescending or seems like to much of an order or some sort of expectation we have. That's why I wanted to avoid it completely more or less, since it is very easy to be mistaken as a suggestion and most of them are wary of us. Might have to trust Firn to spin it right.
Why not just call them on it directly rather than dancing around it?
"Civilian casualties and property damage are bad and you should feel bad"
No implications of suggestions or orders, just a statement of opinion.
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What you quoted was talk about the grief seed payment part of Kinmeatics vote not the collateral damage.
There's noone arguing against chewing them out for it as far as I'm aware.
Okay, sorry then. I think I misunderstood.
Who is going to object, and when, when they're in the middle of a heated battle? Who has authority to get them to change tactics? Rin, who's not even near the vicinity? If Yumi, for example, doesn't like what they're doing, can she tell them to do something else, when Akiko is the one in charge (and not even on the battlefield by the time the metal monster came in)? Is she going to take some time out from her attempts to not be killed to have a nice chat with Akiko about tactical dynamics? Really?
On the other hand, maybe the entire Sendai group is already well aware of Fukushima's tactics, and are fully complicit in their actions. In that case our rant against Fukushima's actions is implicitly also a rant against Sendai. In that case, whatever Yumi chooses to do still reflects on her — either she folds under the guilt of supporting them and follows our suggestion, or she pays the full price in acknowledgement of their own complicity in the act, and accepting it as a modicum of personal punishment. Again, paying the full price means she's accepting the proper role of leadership for her team; otherwise she's making her team subservient to Sabrina.
In this case, my reasoning was that it was just something I'd let Firn fit in wherever he felt it appropriate, and thus not something I needed to be explicit about. It's not like what we're offering hasn't been said a hundred times already.
At the same time, I'd prefer it to be a response to their question of "What are you offering?", rather than pushing it in their face. We've had plenty of difficulties with constructing 'responsive' votes before; rather than put in conditional responses or preemptive responses, I figured I'd just let Sabrina answer naturally whenever it came up.
Eh. There's technically nothing wrong with the idea of not spelling it out (or most of the rest of the vote), but I prefer to spell things out where possible so that OOC it doesn't end up as a vote that really only has one correct answer that'll takes another update to get done- in this case actually making the offer we just said we wanted to make.
It'd really just be
[]Make the standard offer if they want to hear it
And do we really want them to potentially eat the penalty because we said so? I'm not quite so sure we want to inadvertently "suggest" that to Sendai or put them in an awkward position.
It'd really just be
[]Make the standard offer if they want to hear it
And do we really want them to potentially eat the penalty because we said so? I'm not quite so sure we want to inadvertently "suggest" that to Sendai or put them in an awkward position.
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Actually, while going through for a cleanup, I noticed that the directive was to "determine" who has authority. Since it's a point format, it's not a directive to ask a question, and if determining who has authority doesn't require asking the question, there's no reason to do so. In this case, it would be a Firn implementation detail.
Will add this in.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I'm just noticing, but if we make sure or pretend to make sure it's the same seeds, and Moe is in a state of mind to keep track of these things, she'll notice the half-used seed has been cleansed.
This is good, if we want them to realize what our offer is without saying it out loud.
Muramasa
Best Girl
@Kinematics
Misunderstandings in PMMM are very much a thing. I have to agree with Guilop's reasoning. I get the intent, but this is a line that can very easily be misunderstood.
Vote to be revised to:
[] Yes, I think someone has taken to calling me that recently.
-[] Look pointedly at Sakura.
[] Explain to Moe her position. Explain the "No Foolishness Tolerated" policy, but that you don't want to have to repeat yourself, so you're waking the others up as well.
[] Wake up the other two and get them settled in, and unbound once they agree to not cause trouble. Determine who has primary authority among them.
[] Chew them all out for the collateral damage.
[] Note that you're not interfering with Sendai's payment, but that such payment is entirely Sendai's prerogative. Whether Sendai wants to charge a penalty for the damage Fukushima caused is their business.
[] Explain that you're not here looking for a fight, but seem to keep finding it necessary before talking to people.
[] We won't interfere if they want to pack up and go home, but we are trying to offer a deal to nearby magical girl groups that they may be interested in.
-[] Make the standard offer if they want to hear it.
-[] Their confiscated grief seeds will be returned before they leave.
[] Let them discuss among themselves how they want to proceed.
Didn't add a note about returning soul gems, since that's pretty much implicit in waking them up.
Rereading it, and comparing it with the end of the update, I'm concerned about the overall tone being somewhat inconsistent. We left off the update with a very gentle approach, when calming Moe down. That runs somewhat counter to the chewing out that was to be delivered (that I'm pretty sure everyone wanted to give). I suppose the "Explain to Moe her position" bit can be a shift to a more serious tone.
Still contemplating the delivery of the line on payments.
[] Yes, I think someone has taken to calling me that recently.
-[] Look pointedly at Sakura.
[] Explain to Moe her position. Explain the "No Foolishness Tolerated" policy, but that you don't want to have to repeat yourself, so you're waking the others up as well.
[] Wake up the other two and get them settled in, and unbound once they agree to not cause trouble. Determine who has primary authority among them.
[] Chew them all out for the collateral damage.
[] Note that you're not interfering with Sendai's payment, but that such payment is entirely Sendai's prerogative. Whether Sendai wants to charge a penalty for the damage Fukushima caused is their business.
[] Explain that you're not here looking for a fight, but seem to keep finding it necessary before talking to people.
[] We won't interfere if they want to pack up and go home, but we are trying to offer a deal to nearby magical girl groups that they may be interested in.
-[] Make the standard offer if they want to hear it.
-[] Their confiscated grief seeds will be returned before they leave.
[] Let them discuss among themselves how they want to proceed.
Didn't add a note about returning soul gems, since that's pretty much implicit in waking them up.
Rereading it, and comparing it with the end of the update, I'm concerned about the overall tone being somewhat inconsistent. We left off the update with a very gentle approach, when calming Moe down. That runs somewhat counter to the chewing out that was to be delivered (that I'm pretty sure everyone wanted to give). I suppose the "Explain to Moe her position" bit can be a shift to a more serious tone.
Still contemplating the delivery of the line on payments.
The status quo doesn't just refer to the territorial groups, the rivalries and conflicts, or how grief seeds are treated. It's about relationships between people. These relationships don't go away after our offers are accepted. In fact, without a stable grief seed need, favors are going to be traded even more heavily.
The question of goodwill isn't to do with whether they'll hear our offer (if you had your way, we wouldn't give them a choice in that), but whether they'd accept or not. Its the same idea as what just happened between the UG and Sendai. Ultimately, there were other ways to get the seeds for our exchange to work, but that Sendai willingly handed them to Chouko meant a whole damn lot. You can read that in the reactions from every UG member. And since you're quite focused on getting our deal accepted as far reaching as quickly as possible, it's important to build a good relationship with the people we offer it to. Even more important than making the offer itself, because one helps guarantee the other.
The question of goodwill isn't to do with whether they'll hear our offer (if you had your way, we wouldn't give them a choice in that), but whether they'd accept or not. Its the same idea as what just happened between the UG and Sendai. Ultimately, there were other ways to get the seeds for our exchange to work, but that Sendai willingly handed them to Chouko meant a whole damn lot. You can read that in the reactions from every UG member. And since you're quite focused on getting our deal accepted as far reaching as quickly as possible, it's important to build a good relationship with the people we offer it to. Even more important than making the offer itself, because one helps guarantee the other.
Inaction is necessary so we
Since you acknowledge the point about Mami, maybe consider why she made it. "You're overwhelming them". And that was in a situation where a solution was difficult to refuse and necessary to resolve things.
Or we could do a quick check with our IC conscience before plowing ahead. Ask her to give the why of whether or not this is a good time.
Gadjo
Doka
@Kinematics If I have any objections in your vote, I'd have to say I don't like this line:
It sounds like Arrogant!Sabrina again, and we want to avoid that.
At the risk of running into "points not wording"...
Something like
[]Akiko...isn't giving orders to Sendai anymore, and the healing costs shouldn't a problem either. We have issues when it comes to needless fighting and collateral, but we're waking your friends before going into detail.
maybe, at the risk of being too verbose? Not sure if that makes sense. What exactly are we going for with "Explain to Moe"?
Seems a bit less than ideal. I think I understand the intent, but in light of the way the vote's putting off making the offer until a bit later, it seems like we're slapping her with a policy that we're implying she has to follow independent of the offer?
Something like
[]Akiko...isn't giving orders to Sendai anymore, and the healing costs shouldn't a problem either. We have issues when it comes to needless fighting and collateral, but we're waking your friends before going into detail.
maybe, at the risk of being too verbose? Not sure if that makes sense. What exactly are we going for with "Explain to Moe"?
The intent seems to be "we never wanted this to happen" though, which is fairly valid.
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