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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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storryeater said:
One reason to pick gold or celestial over grey is the skills taught there. Gold and celestial teach stewardship among other things. Grey teaches diplo and intrigue, but not stewardship, and a better Steward would make a more effective CEO who thinks of the general good just as much as it would make a more effective selfish CEO.



I think we do represent Mathilde's thoughts, actually. Mathilde is suspicious of everyone, even her friends (even Belegar and Ranald, sometimes).

But... Anton has enough memetic diplomacy to bypass that, Dawi breed a different sort of doubt to humans ("will they overreact" instead of "are their motives unjust or selfish", we have doubted Kragg and Belegar about the first multiple times) , and as for gods, well, suspicion or not, you have faith to them for a reason.
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Which is all well and good, but it ends up in practice as being a distinct bias against female peers. One that Mathilde does not actually share- or rather, Mathilde has quite a bit of emotional investment and connection that the thread lacks or does not incorporate fully.

As far as Heidi being popular, I would refer to the discussions around those votes. Making sure Heidi wasn't up to something, and maneuvering for connections and status, and our emotional investment with the heir- those were the points considered. Actually having another friend, a ranaldian who also has a high position and a lot of stress from it, and so is emotionally on a very similar level to Mathilde- that was not really a part of it.

And for Wilhelma, the concerns Mathilde had were NOT PERSONAL- they were concerns about the way that the EIC resembled the Stirland league, and the general grey mage bias against moneygrubbers since Deiter. None of her concern was really directed at Wilhelma as a person- rather, she was reassured by having her as the head. But these concerns have since attached to her as a character, and so the thread treats her as the company rather than OUR FRIEND in terms of motives and suspicion.

So I'm saying that despite having reasons for it, this bias seems to be real and should be considered when choosing Mathilde's actions: she likes these people more than the thread does.
 
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Also, we don't really know what the Grey College, or any other College for that matter, teaches aside from their wind magic and stereotypical subjects associated with them. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the Grey College would teach stewardship, or the Gold intrigue, just that it won't have the same focus as the lessons in a College that does specialize in those areas.
 
I mean looking at Mathilde's male to female acquaintances I do not think there is that much of a bias:

We are certainly not suspicious of Edna, or Adela (even when she was engaging in outright nepotism). We did not bat an eye on Gretel's main motivation being naked greed, and once we got over being upset at her for firing Mathy the thread warmed up to Roswita. I think that makes Hedi and Wilhelmina special is that unlike Gretel Adela or Edna they have power and the ambition to use it to get more power on a significant political level. You cannot really say the same of Anton because he mostly bumbles into success without a plan. Roswita is in a special place since she does have power and would probably like more, but she is focused on using it to kill vampires.
 
Glau said:
Which is all well and good, but it ends up in practice as being a distinct bias against female peers. One that Mathilde does not actually share- or rather, Mathilde has quite a bit of emotional investment and connection that the thread lacks or does not incorporate fully.

As far as Heidi being popular, I would refer to the discussions around those votes. Making sure Heidi wasn't up to something, and maneuvering for connections and status, and our emotional investment with the heir- those were the points considered. Actually having another friend, a ranaldian who also has a high position and a lot of stress from it, and so is emotionally on a very similar level to Mathilde- that was not really a part of it.

So I'm saying that despite having reasons for it, this bias seems to be real and should be considered when choosing Mathilde's actions: she likes these people more than the thread does.
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I do remember those discussions, because I was part of them, as one of the apologists for Heidi, I may add (never saw her as a bad guy, and agree with your assessment of her).

What I remember though is that only the same 6 or 7 people (including me) really cared or participated in that debate, with the rest of the thread ignoring it or making jokes. (that is not meant to carry any sort of value judgement denigrating the participators, the jokers or the ignorers, everyone participated as much as they liked, and that is ok. I am just making an assessment of the situation and the data extractable from it). As both sides were represented by vocal minorities with a very small difference in numbers, it is hard to assume any thread wide stance from them.

There was a much bigger bias, number of unique participants wise, against Belegar in the vote when we had to decide whether we'd tell him about the magical pipeline or not. And the thread still voted to tell him.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I mean looking at Mathilde's male to female acquaintances I do not think there is that much of a bias:

We are certainly not suspicious of Edna, or Adela (even when she was engaging in outright nepotism). We did not bat an eye on Gretel's main motivation being naked greed, and once we got over being upset at her for firing Mathy the thread warmed up to Roswita. I think that makes Hedi and Wilhelmina special is that unlike Gretel Adela or Edna they have power and the ambition to use it to get more power on a significant political level. You cannot really say the same of Anton because he mostly bumbles into success without a plan. Roswita is in a special place since she does have power and would probably like more, but she is focused on using it to kill vampires.
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An alternative, less flattering, reading is that we like the women when we are in a position of power or mentorship over them. Our dwarfy book club friend is somewhat of the exception that proves the rule, but we still didn't really warm up to her as a thread until she demonstrated a character flaw that Mathilde was positioned to help with.
 
Glau said:
Which is all well and good, but it ends up in practice as being a distinct bias against female peers. One that Mathilde does not actually share- or rather, Mathilde has quite a bit of emotional investment and connection that the thread lacks or does not incorporate fully.

As far as Heidi being popular, I would refer to the discussions around those votes. Making sure Heidi wasn't up to something, and maneuvering for connections and status, and our emotional investment with the heir- those were the points considered. Actually having another friend, a ranaldian who also has a high position and a lot of stress from it, and so is emotionally on a very similar level to Mathilde- that was not really a part of it.

And for Wilhelma, the concerns Mathilde had were NOT PERSONAL- they were concerns about the way that the EIC resembled the Stirland league, and the general grey mage bias against moneygrubbers since Deiter. None of her concern was really directed at Wilhelma as a person- rather, she was reassured by having her as the head. But these concerns have since attached to her as a character, and so the thread treats her as the company rather than OUR FRIEND in terms of motives and suspicion.

So I'm saying that despite having reasons for it, this bias seems to be real and should be considered when choosing Mathilde's actions: she likes these people more than the thread does.
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I don't know about other people motivations for voting, but I have always voted for Heidi just because she is really fun character to read about, and don't really care about the heir much at this point.

From what I remember about those discussions about Heidi, it was always just a vocal minority of detractors.
 
Glau said:
You know, it occurs to me that the thread has a consistent bias that skews against Mathilde's actual expressed IC opinions.

The thread does not like Mathilde's female friends. Namely, Heidi and Wilhelma, who are the only real ones we have- note the way Mathilde references her "very good friend" and remember that Wilhelma was our first friend in Stirland, then compare and contrast the way the thread discusses her to the love than Anton gets. Or the way that we schemed to get Kragg and Belebro's affection but have largely ignored our imperial connections except for our godson and commonality of deity.

So Heidi is in a similar boat. Both of the women get intense, constant scrutiny of their motives, with 'they are up to something shady that we may need to stop' and the actual human connections and affection Mathilde has for them gets ignored in discussions.

I'm in favor of having a cute apprentice, so I'll be voting for that, but I think the thread might be benefitted by thinking a bit more in terms of personal connections and affection, and a bit less in terms of institutions and the long term interests of the empire. The plotter is going to make fools of us all over the 10-20 year timescales, sop we are best served by doing what is best of our immediate actions, putting allies and good people into the positions we can, and basically preserving a power base for future issues rather than dispersing it with the hopes that it will run better on autopilot than under our (or the grey order's) immediate control.

In other words, having our apprentice in charge of the EIC keeps it under control, and not in play. Having Eike as our apprentice keeps her visible and on-side, and not potentially being manipulated against us.

So please keep in mind Mathilde's actual feelings- IE, much warmer than the thread's- and remember that anything we don't have a direct hand in is something that can be manipulated against us and our goals.

And our enemies are aware of who we are now. We spiked Slaanesh with Vlag. We spiked Khorne with the bearricane. We spiked Tzeech (probably?) with the Mork/Gork split. All we need now is Nurgle and all four of the chaos gods will have direct contact with and reason to hate Mathilde. Also, we spiked the Horned Rat with K8P and Queekish. Even ignoring the Lhamians who saw us slip their leash...

We no longer have the luxury of anonymity.
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I don't think I agree with this. For one, it's just on really shaky statistics. There aren't that many female friends, for one. Heidi is a conwoman with a big immoral streak. She's very interesting, but I don't trust her, and disliking her is fair enough I feel. The scrutiny she gets is because of her profession, not her gender. Also, a lot of it was specifically in context of her suitability as a romantic partner, where trust is kind of very important. (Mandred meanwhile just doesn't enter into it, Heidi is way more interesting. He'll be relevant when he stops being tiny)

Wilhelmine... I do actually like quite a bit, her problems just aren't super relevant (they don't touch us, and we can't help her much, unlike with Roswita where we could plop a vampire skull on her desk and make it go away). She's not being a great parent to Eike, but I suspect that's over-correcting because of how her children turned out before. Still, saying her child rearing is problematic is fair enough, I feel, and quite relevant. I don't think she gets particular scrutiny outside of that.

And if we're talking about female friends, then we shouldn't forget Roswita. She started on a bad foot, because she kinda rudely kicked us out of our job, and the initial behaviour wasn't promising (not asking for the runefang, spy reports, etc; selling the tax base). But that's pretty much gone away, and I don't think she gets questioned.

On the male side, you have Johann, who got intense suspicion. As did Horstman, though that's more to do with his canon role. Anton doesn't get any because he's just incredibly straightforward and super sweet. That wouldn't be any different if it was Antonia. And Kasimir gets way less than Wilhelmine, and he got a lot of side-eying before he want through his character arc.

I honestly don't really see where you're coming from. The imperial friends don't get that many actions, true. There's also a ton of K8Ps people who don't get many. I don't see a bias between female and male friends either. Kragg is super cool as the best runesmith and grumpy old person who likes us despite himself. Belegar is our boss, and that makes him very important. If Roswita had become our boss, she'd have gotten a ton of social actions too.

I think what you're getting at is that unlike most of our imperial friends (Roswita, Anton, Kasimir) already went through their charcter arcs and mostly resolved their personal problems. Wilhelmine on the other hand was right in the middle of it, and it just got kicked up another notch with the magic revelation.
 
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Glau said:
An alternative, less flattering, reading is that we like the women when we are in a position of power or mentorship over them. Our dwarfy book club friend is somewhat of the exception that proves the rule, but we still didn't really warm up to her as a thread until she demonstrated a character flaw that Mathilde was positioned to help with.
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I mean sure, but there are all of two women you are basing this on and two does not a pattern make IMO.
 
Also @Glau, a more accurate bias is that all of Mathy's friends are wizards or powerful, and sadly, there are less powerful woman then man.

Mathy has no problems with her Female wizard friends.

Heidi is Heidi, that's not a gender thing, that's just knowing her enough to know that she is always going to be a suspect, and proud of it.

And the thread only really got wary of Welm after the thread found out she bought her own granddaughter and was appearing to be a bit of a soccer/Irish dancing/ballet/whatever grandma.
 
Glau said:
Which is all well and good, but it ends up in practice as being a distinct bias against female peers. One that Mathilde does not actually share- or rather, Mathilde has quite a bit of emotional investment and connection that the thread lacks or does not incorporate fully.

As far as Heidi being popular, I would refer to the discussions around those votes. Making sure Heidi wasn't up to something, and maneuvering for connections and status, and our emotional investment with the heir- those were the points considered. Actually having another friend, a ranaldian who also has a high position and a lot of stress from it, and so is emotionally on a very similar level to Mathilde- that was not really a part of it.

And for Wilhelma, the concerns Mathilde had were NOT PERSONAL- they were concerns about the way that the EIC resembled the Stirland league, and the general grey mage bias against moneygrubbers since Deiter. None of her concern was really directed at Wilhelma as a person- rather, she was reassured by having her as the head. But these concerns have since attached to her as a character, and so the thread treats her as the company rather than OUR FRIEND in terms of motives and suspicion.

So I'm saying that despite having reasons for it, this bias seems to be real and should be considered when choosing Mathilde's actions: she likes these people more than the thread does.
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I think that the numbers involved are far too low to read an explicit sexist bias into it, especially one that can be applied to the thread's voter base as a whole.

We have no male friends that cover the niche that Heidi and Wilhelmina cover (i.e. people with ambitions to gather lots of worldly power through means other than fighting the Empire's enemies). Also, there are no complaints about Roswita or Panoramia that go along the lines of those that people have for Wilhelmina and Heidi.

So while there might be a bias, I don't see why we should jump to the conclusion that it is a bias based on gender as opposed to one based on race (Human exercising power) or class (capitalist/social climber).
Glau said:
An alternative, less flattering, reading is that we like the women when we are in a position of power or mentorship over them. Our dwarfy book club friend is somewhat of the exception that proves the rule, but we still didn't really warm up to her as a thread until she demonstrated a character flaw that Mathilde was positioned to help with.
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The only male Human friends we have no power over are Anton and Kasmir. Kasmir had gone mostly neglected lately and Anton is Anton.
 
Am I the only person who feels Heidi can be trusted?

Like, yeah, she's a professional conwoman, but I feel that she operates schemes on a long term scale with enlightened self-interest as a goal, and that kind of makes her... hmm, not predictable, as much as we know what levers move her. She's not going to damage the Empire, or hurt people, or betray Mathilde, because there's no benefit for her to that, and I trust her based on her knowing that, if that makes sense? I trust her to always act to her advantage, and I don't see how that can turn her against us or what we stand for at this moment.
 
On the matter of Hedi and Wilhelmina there is also the fact that they actually did morally questionable things that we the thread know about. You can't just laugh off marriage under false pretenses or buying a child off their desperate mother. Now I do not think that makes either of them villains, but it does make them people who watch more closely than say Anton who is so sweet he has weaponized it.
 
To be honest, Heidi always seemed like that jerk with a heart of gold who constantly does good things but then denies having a selfless motive for doing them.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Am I the only person who feels Heidi can be trusted?

Like, yeah, she's a professional conwoman, but I feel that she operates schemes on a long term scale with enlightened self-interest as a goal, and that kind of makes her... hmm, not predictable, as much as we know what levers move her. She's not going to damage the Empire, or hurt people, or betray Mathilde, because there's no benefit for her to that, and I trust her based on her knowing that, if that makes sense? I trust her to always act to her advantage, and I don't see how that can turn her against us or what we stand for at this moment.
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I trust Heidi far more than i trust average noble, which is avery low bar to clear.
Heidi is sus, but not necessarily untrustworthy.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Am I the only person who feels Heidi can be trusted?

Like, yeah, she's a professional conwoman, but I feel that she operates schemes on a long term scale with enlightened self-interest as a goal, and that kind of makes her... hmm, not predictable, as much as we know what levers move her. She's not going to damage the Empire, or hurt people, or betray Mathilde, because there's no benefit for her to that, and I trust her based on her knowing that, if that makes sense? I trust her to always act to her advantage, and I don't see how that can turn her against us or what we stand for at this moment.
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I trust Heidi. I just also think that she genuinely enjoys making people confused.

She's amazing, I Love characters like her.
 
storryeater said:
To be honest, Heidi always seemed like that jerk with a heart of gold who constantly does good things but then denies having a selfless motive for doing them.
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The problem with 'jerk with a heart of gold' is that you are supposed to realize the second part when the time comes to unveil their motives, but methods also matter. Hedi got to where she is by lying to practically everyone about who she is and that is a moral wrong inherently, she did used and manipulate a lot of the people she professes to care for like her husband. That is at least reason to suspect she might use and manipulate Mathy if the chance comes up.
 
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