Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[BurnNote]

Am I the only person who feels Heidi can be trusted?

Like, yeah, she's a professional conwoman, but I feel that she operates schemes on a long term scale with enlightened self-interest as a goal, and that kind of makes her... hmm, not predictable, as much as we know what levers move her. She's not going to damage the Empire, or hurt people, or betray Mathilde, because there's no benefit for her to that, and I trust her based on her knowing that, if that makes sense? I trust her to always act to her advantage, and I don't see how that can turn her against us or what we stand for at this moment.

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I do kind of agree with you here. I don't think she'll betray Mathilde as Heidi understands it, outside absolutely extraordinary circumstances (like a case of Ranald vs Mathilde).

However, I do believe that what Heidi considers acceptable and what Mathilde considers acceptable are two different things. I'm certain that Heidi would screw the empire for the sake of Ranald if the pay-off would be large enough, no regrets. Mathilde? Only if she could twist her mind to justify it falling in line with her oaths (Example: Sacrifcing the Empire to really hurt Chaos fits the imperial ideal of Fuck Chaos, and therefore is ok).

Hell, I can fully imagine her doing something she thinks would please Mathilde that really wouldn't. Disgrace a business rival through dirty means as a birthday present, for example.

To be honest, Heidi always seemed like that jerk with a heart of gold who constantly does good things but then denies having a selfless motive for doing them.

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I do agree that there's a good chance she portrays herself as more ruthless to impress the scary grey magister with the huge sword. That she got Shallya's blessing is a good indicator for that. But until we know more about her, I'm not sure about that. Plus, the above point still stands.

 

[storryeater]

The problem with 'jerk with a heart of gold' is that you are supposed to realize the second part when the time comes to unveil their motives, but methods also matter. Hedi got to where she is by lying to practically everyone about who she is and that is a moral wrong inherently, she did used and manipulate a lot of the people she professes to care for like her husband. That is at least reason to suspect she might use and manipulate Mathy if the chance comes up.

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I mean, yeah, you are right that she could manipulate us.

But, I need to say, not everyone agrees about the inherent moral wrongness of lies, deceit and fraud. Putting aside the fact that in reality, yes, they are morally wrong 9999 times out of 10000 because the people partaking are almost always punching down, fiction is a lot about exploring the edge cases where something usually morally wrong can be argued to be morally grey or even morally good. I do not believe that defrauding a nobility system is morally evil, for example. Anything bad that can be said about Heidi can be said 3 times over about Disney's Aladdin.

I do agree that there's a good chance she portrays herself as more ruthless to impress the scary grey magister with the huge sword. That she got Shallya's blessing is a good indicator for that. But until we know more about her, I'm not sure about that. Plus, the above point still stands.

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That is fair, we lack hard evidence either way. We'll need to spend more time with her to really tell.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

Thing is, She's also one of the closest things there is to a High Priestess of Ranald.

Ranald is Chill overall and really doesn't enjoy having to screw innocent people over if he can get away with it. Necessary violence and similar yes, but only when absolutely necessary.

She might not be honest, and regard the truth as something optional, but I don't think anything like 'Heidi backstabs the Empire' is really ever going to be a thing.

 

[Valarauko]

One reason to pick gold or celestial over grey is the skills taught there. Gold and celestial teach stewardship among other things. Grey teaches diplo and intrigue, but not stewardship, and a better Steward would make a more effective CEO who thinks of the general good just as much as it would make a more effective selfish CEO.

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The Greys can totally teach stewardship. Look at the bursar. I'd almost make the case that Wilhelmine might be a better master than us for Eike. The Grey College is a secret police agency, it has to have some rudiments of forensic accounting or at least "follow the money". And it's not like they can't bring in specialist instructors, especially for the heir to a large multinational company they're eager to sink their hooks into.

I think this bit has also gotten a bit lost in the discussion of the Vow of Poverty. While much has been made of it being not terribly onerous and not at all a sword of Damocles, there's also the "of direct and practical use to their cause" portion. What would Eike's cause be? She'd be entering the Grey Order at the recommendation of a Lady Magister with intimate knowledge of the company she is heir to. Unless the Greys are completely stupid, the entire arc of her magisterial career is already set: take helm of the EIC with the backing and trust of the Grey Order and make it serve the Empire. She will be trained in that direction from the beginning, made to understand the purpose of the Order and develop loyalty to and trust from in the context of being their trusted agent running the company and now major collegiate asset, especially since Grey supervision is already baked into corporate culture and her own education (she knows already to Not Skin The Sheep). Therefore Eike's cause will be to shepherd the EIC for the benefit of the Empire and the Grey Order. No conflict whatsoever with the Vow.

 

[kingreaper]

Am I the only person who feels Heidi can be trusted?

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Mathilde can trust Heidi because Ranald would almost certainly get super-pissed if Heidi betrayed Mathilde - and as a divine caster, Heidi cannot take that chance.

That doesn't make Heidi, conwoman extraordinaire, trustworthy - it just means that Mathilde isn't the victim.

Of course, given as Mathilde mostly agrees with Ranald on what constitutes an "acceptable victim" Heidi is generally going to be dishonestly serving the same goals that Mathilde is dishonestly serving. Mathilde just tends more towards shorter cons that only trick enemies (like pretending to be a Skaven when assassinating a Goblin) while Heidi will happily trick allies in order to also trick enemies and works on decades-long cons.

 

[BurnNote]

But, I need to say, not everyone agrees about the inherent moral wrongness of lies, deceit and fraud. Putting aside the fact that in reality, yes, they are morally wrong 9999 times out of 10000 because the people partaking are almost always punching down, fiction is a lot about exploring the edge cases where something usually morally wrong can be argued to be morally grey or even morally good. I do not believe that defrauding a nobility system is morally evil, for example. Anything bad that can be said about Heidi can be said 3 times over about Disney's Aladdin.

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Personally, the marriage thing doesn't bother me all that much. She lied, but frankly the appearence is the only thing that matters, and the emperor got a highly competent leader out of it (Ludwig quest is probably puzzeld why Heidi's mystery box bonus was a reroll per turn, but isn't about to question it, outside that weird contingent that was previously convinced the prior empress was a cultist or something). She seems fond enough of him, which is about as much as you can demand from a political marriage.

Personally, what concerns me more is stuff like "You stole Stirlands taxes and ran away so you wouldn't get hit by the consequences? Good Job!".

 

[IronFist]

Heidi backstabbing the Empire on behalf of Ranald is not happening.

Ranald is a few steps away from getting himself a Ranaldite/Ranald friendly emperor, thanks to Heidi's social position.
Heidi has the Ear of the most powerful man in the Empire, she loves her son, who is set to follow his father on the throne.

Heidi or Ranald intentionally sabotaging the Empire in any way would be incredibly counterproductive for either of them.

Ranald is not Tzeentch.

 

[BeepSmile]

Risk = Likelihood * Consequences.

The likelihood of Dampeners going wrong somehow might be incredibly small. The consequences if it does range from Miscast, to Pyre, to Exploding into Daemons, to Exploding other people with Daemons.

It's like a button that might destroy a city and everyone in it 1/100 times, but gives you a kitten otherwise.

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I'd blow up a city for 99 kitte-

Oh. Wait

It comes out as 50 kittens on average, I think.
Never mind, then.

 

[storryeater]

Personally, what concerns me more is stuff like "You stole Stirlands taxes and ran away so you wouldn't get hit by the consequences? Good Job!".

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"Consequences" in that case, would be more like "burn her, stake her, don't ask her, don't give her a trial, its the only way to be sure". We also do not know what she did with the money, and its highly likely she did more for her peasants than Stirland did, at least pre reclamation. (and she left immediately after the reclamation so post reclamation does not really count)

 

[Valmond]

I think the important question is, which city gets blown up?
I mean, ~50 kittens is a lot of kittens.

 

[BurnNote]

Thing is, She's also one of the closest things there is to a High Priestess of Ranald.

Ranald is Chill overall and really doesn't enjoy having to screw innocent people over if he can get away with it. Necessary violence and similar yes, but only when absolutely necessary.

She might not be honest, and regard the truth as something optional, but I don't think anything like 'Heidi backstabs the Empire' is really ever going to be a thing.

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Thing is, fluffy Ranald is not the only view, and there's some pretty nasty cults for him too. That's been a debate her before (several times, so lets not go there again)

Heidi backstabbing the Empire on behalf of Ranald is not happening.

Ranald is a few steps away from getting himself a Ranaldite/Ranald friendly emperor, thanks to Heidi's social position.
Heidi has the Ear of the most powerful man in the Empire, she loves her son, who is set to follow his father on the throne.

Heidi or Ranald intentionally sabotaging the Empire in any way would be incredibly counterproductive for either of them.

Ranald is not Tzeentch.

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It's not about "Will it happen?". The answer is no, and at least in small part because Ranald really likes Mathilde and she's not ok with that.

The point is that Heidi's loyalties first Ranald, then Empire (and I wouldn't be suprised if there were a few other things between those two, probably including Mathilde). On the other hand, at least so far, my read is that Mathilde's loyalties are Empire first, then Ranald.

 

[DragonParadox]

"Consequences" in that case, would be more like "burn her, stake her, don't ask her, don't give her a trial, its the only way to be sure". We also do not know what she did with the money, and its highly likely she did more for her peasants than Stirland did, at least pre reclamation. (and she left immediately after the reclamation so post reclamation does not really count)

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Also we kind of did the same thing on a lesser scale. That money we laundered to pay our college debt is also tax money from the sweat of the average Stirlander.

The reason I call out the lying is not just as a matter of morality but character. Heidi is willing to live a lie even from the husband she supposedly loves. That is a lot more willingness to lie than Mathilde has ever shown.

Show of hands, who here would run a long con on Panorania about a fundamental aspect of our background?

 

[veekie]

Fuck it, if Eike does end up as our apprentice, we're going to have to institute mandatory fun time or something.

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Somewhat overstated. Mathilde is a big fan of leisure time.
In the College, it was her pet cat, and love for romance novels.
In Stirland she found an appetite for nice bathtime, and picking up new skills for fun and profit.
In Karak Eight Peaks she expanded upon the above, turning her book collection into a future Wonder of the World, having a bathroom better than my modern one, and indulged in fine food while prying at the whichness of the why.

The Grey Order puts a pretty high value on its agents having good self care and coping mechanisms, because the vast majority of them are going to be working independently and unknown to allies. You do not want to risk an agent breaking out in the field.

If anything, Wilhelmina's training regimen might be the harsher of the two.
Eike is a fine kid, but we've see brief moments of true enjoyment(Racing on shadowsteed) between a lot of constant worrying about failing a test and being once again abandoned.
Knowing your father didn't want you, your mother sold you, and your grandmother only bought you because she had no better option for a heir can leave a mark. A grandmother who had made it very clear she has to perform adequately.

 

[storryeater]

Also we kind of did the same thing on a lesser scale. That money we laundered to pay our college debt is also tax money from the sweat of the average Stirlander.

The reason I call out the lying is not just as a matter of morality but character. Heidi is willing to live a lie even from the husband she supposedly loves. That is a lot more willingness to lie than Mathilde has ever shown.

Show of hands, who here would run a long con on Panorania about a fundamental aspect of our background?

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Well, I wouldn't tell her about the Liber Mortis.

 

[DragonParadox]

Well, I wouldn't tell her about the Liber Mortis.

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That is not really comparable with saying for instance 'our name is not Mathilde and we are actually the heiress of an disgraced Ostlander nobles'.

 

[Talon TigerDino]

Ranald is Chill overall and really doesn't enjoy having to screw innocent people over if he can get away with it. Necessary violence and similar yes, but only when absolutely necessary.

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Only one of Ranald's aspects looks out for the little guy, and the aspect that advocates
thievery doesn't really care about the innocence of who you rob. Not every Ranaldite is Robin Hood, and I'm sure plenty of innocents get screwed over by his followers.

 

[LightLan]

That is not really comparable with saying for instance 'our name is not Mathilde and we are actually the heiress of an disgraced Ostlander nobles'.

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Indeed. it is worse. One gets you killed, the other adds pacification to the killed, because they can't trust your soul to stay dead.

 

[IronFist]

Also we kind of did the same thing on a lesser scale. That money we laundered to pay our college debt is also tax money from the sweat of the average Stirlander.

The reason I call out the lying is not just as a matter of morality but character. Heidi is willing to live a lie even from the husband she supposedly loves. That is a lot more willingness to lie than Mathilde has ever shown.

Show of hands, who here would run a long con on Panorania about a fundamental aspect of our background?

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a) it mah have started as a con, with the Love coming later, in which case she ends up in an unfortunate situation where she can't come clean, because her husband would have to have her executed.
b) Liber Mortis is still a secret, and so is our Dhar expertise... Mathilde keeps some pretty shady shit secret from Panoramia, and she has no way of telling her either.

 

[Glau]

Discussion of Heidi being entirely about whether she is trustworthy in the abstract and serving the same goals as us: I rest my case.

I like her as a character, and I think she is one of the only people in setting Mathilde can be mostly honest with. She is a friend, could be a very close one, and should be treated as such.

Seriously, Mathilde needs more friends. Ones who see past the Lady Magister Grey mask to the emotional needs of the person underneath.

That's pretty much just Belegar, Panoramia, and our former master right now.

 

[storryeater]

Only one of Ranald's aspects looks out for the little guy, and the aspect that advocates
thievery doesn't really care about the innocence of who you rob. Not every Ranaldite is Robin Hood, and I'm sure plenty of innocents get screwed over by his followers.

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That comes from a reading of Ranald that acts as if he is four separate gods, instead of 1 individual with multiple spheres of interest, domains and/or hobbies.

Edit: how did this discussion end back to Ranald?

 

[BeepSmile]

Wolf and Heidecker (y'know, the Ranald Priests). Not particularly cute, unless you're like me and just now discovered you ship them.
In conclusion, Ranald does not discriminate based on cuteness.

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Dear thread: Gib omake plz.

Suggestion: Their first few meetings, or this is after their third or forth job that they teamed up on (they were already priests before they met). They had fun doing some jobs and *click*, an on again-off again or maybe just amorphus/loose relationship develops. They just want to have fun and watch eachother's backs and we see that delevop.[1]

I want me some manly gay anarchist criminal romance!

Underlying it all, we readers have the very mild[2] tradegy of knowing Wolf is going to die.

[1] Might play out over several omakes
[2] Mild, because we readers know that Wolf literally has a good spot in the afterlife. He'll be fine. Well, as fine as a dead person can be. The larger sadness is that these two lovers and friends will be seperated for (hopefully) many years.
Bittersweet.

 

[DragonParadox]

Indeed. it is worse. One gets you killed, the other adds pacification to the killed, because they can't trust your soul to stay dead.

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It's not about what the punishment would be, but about how much it informs one's partner of who you are.

Discussion of Heidi being entirely about whether she is trustworthy in the abstract and serving the same goals as us: I rest my case.

I like her as a character, and I think she is one of the only people in setting Mathilde can be mostly honest with. She is a friend, could be a very close one, and should be treated as such.

Seriously, Mathilde needs more friends. Ones who see past the Lady Magister Grey mask to the emotional needs of the person underneath.

That's pretty much just Belegar, Panoramia, and our former master right now.

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I mean have you considered that is because much of the thread simply does not see her as a friend, but more as an ally who shares a patron god. the sheer distance and lack of contact would prevent any of those warm feelings you are talking about from forming. It is not like we can be candid pen palls either because all the things we have in common with Hedi hint at secrets that would get her killed.

Also I'm pretty sure Johann sees beyond the mask just fine and Horstman is clever enough to start seeing hints of the truth, but he might be a chaos worshiper so hold off on the cake and cookies for now.

 

[Shard]

I dont see what's wrong with Heidi that has people riled up about her. Anymore than we should hate Mathilde for kidnapping people or getting them to a party where they get kidnapped. Or promising mercy before going back on it a few seconds after, etc.

 

[Godwinson]

That is not really comparable with saying for instance 'our name is not Mathilde and we are actually the heiress of an disgraced Ostlander nobles'.

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I'm not particularly sure why people seem to give that much of a fuck about doing an end run around stupid blood-nobility quotients. The con as presented gave her all of the actual benefits that being that heiress would have given her (and thus her husband). Considering that these aristocrats are expressly marrying for political aims, with any potential personal relationships being developed after the fact, you're very much applying relationship standards that don't apply.

 

[DragonParadox]

I'm not particularly sure why people seem to give that much of a fuck about doing an end run around stupid blood-nobility quotients. The con as presented gave her all of the actual benefits that being that heiress would have given her (and thus her husband). Considering that these aristocrats are expressly marrying for political aims, with any potential personal relationships being developed after the fact, you're very much applying relationship standards that don't apply.

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Because the Emperor would care about the stupid nobility stuff, he would have probably refused to marry a peasant and doubly so a priestess of Ranald. By her willingness to lie about those two things to him and keep lying Hedi is compromising his agency and showing a certain degree of ruthlessness that Mathilde so far has not. I'm not saying that makes her a monster, just that it is rather a different sort of lie than pretending to be a skaven in order to rile up golbins or the reverse.