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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Klaus said:
I think the magic dampers are less of a risk than it initially seems. What we do is, make it clear to her that between our influence and her money, if she ever does want to learn magic, she just needs to say the word and she can get a proper education from the colleges rather than risking exploding her soul (This would be accompanied by explaining just how bad an idea it is to try and be a magicker).

Otherwise, I think Gold. Having two grey Wizards in charge of the EIC Offers less variety of abilities than one grey and one gold.
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Why does the trade company need a variety of abilities though? Is she going to need Plague of Rust for something? Final Transmutation? If the EIC needs a Gold wizard they can just hire one with money, they are on the market. Greys are not really as prevalent and in any case this is more about institutional interactions than what spells one can cast.
 
Klaus said:
think the magic dampers are less of a risk than it initially seems.
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Risk = Likelihood * Consequences.

The likelihood of Dampeners going wrong somehow might be incredibly small. The consequences if it does range from Miscast, to Pyre, to Exploding into Daemons, to Exploding other people with Daemons.

It's like a button that might destroy a city and everyone in it 1/100 times, but gives you a kitten otherwise.
 
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I honestly don't think mathy knows enough about what the other colleges are like to have an actual valid opinion.

if anything, K8Ps are all the weirdos, the gold order in general is more likely to be the opposite of Mathy's boys, then just like them.
 
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Valmond said:
I mean, sure, if you want Eike's interests come before interests of everyone else in the world, then sure, they are not.
But i don't see having phenomenal cosmic power, while being limited to being obscenely wealthy, as an undue burden to place on someone.
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Since we are just giving her advice here, I'd rather make sure that she's genuinely informed and takes what is the best path for her personally instead of even a little bit veering into manipulating her into what's best for the Empire and/or Mathilde. She's a 12 year old girl and family of a friend. As the Grey Order shareholder we will always make sure that she doesn't abuse the EIC, but beyond that she should be free to do what's genuinely best for her.

Now arguments have been made that the Grey Order is what's genuinely best for her. That having Mathilde as a master and patron more than makes up for any Vow of Poverty or other Grey specific obligations. I'm not sure I agree a 100% but I can see the validity of that argument. But if we are going to steer her there for reasons that we wouldn't choose if we were in her place because it is more convenient for us or pushes her into being forced into a more prosocial lifestyle than she might have chosen for herself then I am against it.
DragonParadox said:
She will not have to give it up, in fact the Grey Order will be very happy to have her running it. As seen here
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I know I know. My question was a hypothetical what if question. As in, for how many people here is Eike's future in the EIC even a priority or consideration in the face of getting a narratively comfortable apprentice. I mean quite a few voters voted with their argument literally being "apprentice" repeated four times in all caps. Quite a few of those were probably tongue in cheek and even if they weren't, voting for what you want to see in a story is perfectly valid, but it's not where I'm at. And arguments about how much the Vow of Poverty (and other Grey obligations or perceptions) does or doesn't interfere with running the EIC both matter less to them and are made more easily by them.
NuclearConsensus said:
We already have an example of how this works right? When that guy from Talabecland or some other province dropped by to talk to Mathilde?
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I remember the guy. He was from Ostermark. I can't remember how that scene concluded though or what chapter it was in.

NavySeel said:
Greys are supposed to act in the interests of the Empire, and a strong stirland is very clearly helping the empire considering Stirland is on one of the Empires most dangerous borders.

I don't see how what you said disputes what I said in my post in any way, though thanks for quoting a tiny fragment of it and making me have to dig up my original post.

There were no issues with Mathilde having money even before she showed herself to be exceptional.
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First of all, sorry for the context lacking quote. My point was supposed to be that looking at what the Vow of Poverty meant for Mathilde should not be used as a generalizable argument.

Second, the EIC will, as a merchant organization that negotiates with feudal lords, sometimes have to play them against each other and trade favors with those that give it concessions. A Grey Wizard isn't really supposed to do this stuff and an EC will definitely push those buttons whenever its useful to their interests. Mathilde doesn't run or own more than half of the EIC and she has also been on the other side of the world. A hypothetical Eike that is both the face of the EIC and represents the Grey Order's interests within it will have a harder time sidestepping such maneuvers.

Lastly, Mathilde back then was both not visibly and overtly rich and running a government ministry of the type that allows easy blurring between the lines of personal funds and budget.

Zero Gravitas said:
That's more of a prohibition against using Grey assassins against other Electors which is something everyone desires for obvious reasons
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I don't think it's merely that. I vaguely remember a WoG that, when asked about the no internal politicking thing in tandem with becoming Mandred's tutor (and Heidi's catspaw), essentially said that doing it in the name of the Emperor and using positive PR methods like helping out with problems made it not a problem. The corollary to that is that trading favors and putting mercantile pressure on nobles of varying provinces, or just doing the classical "we'll take our business elsewhere if taxes are too high" maneuver, in order to benefit the EIC as an organization or Stirland as a whole might not be allowed.
DragonParadox said:
You know there is one other advantage for having Eike as out apprentice, one her grandmother will be quite fond of I imagine. Dwarfs take apprenticeships really seriously to the point where even when they are sharing cult and guild secrets there is an exception for sharing them with one's apprentice. Take that concept and expand it. What will it mean for the future head of the EIC to be known as the apprentice of Mathilde Weber 'the dwarf'? That is a lot of goodwill to be starting off with.
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Hmm. That is a good one. I'm back to neutral on the Grey Order.
 
Ericwinter said:
Do you really think Ranald would choose anything except the absolute most cutest thing in the world?
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Let's look at the available evidence:
  1. Wolf. Best Boy. Mathilde thinks he's intensely cute. Most people disagree, but nobody is going to say anything to the too-inteligent pony-sized wolf.
  2. Mathilde. Very cute on occasion, in a "nooo, I am the shadow!!" kind of way. It's mostly gap-moe style cutness.
  3. Heidi. Not particularly cute at all. Can probably pretend cuteness, but I'm not counting her.
  4. Wolf and Heidecker (y'know, the Ranald Priests). Not particularly cute, unless you're like me and just now discovered you ship them.
  5. Shallya. May or may not be cute. Would guess yes. My headcanon has her somewhere on the Done-with-all-this-shit canon Panacea to shipfic woobie Panacea spectrum.
  6. Mandred. Heidi thinks he's the cutest. Mathilde disagrees, Wolf is clearly better. I have to side with Mathilde on this.
In conclusion, Ranald does not discriminate based on cuteness.
 
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If Eike ends up deciding to go to the Grey Order I hope we can take her to see Dragomas fight. Seeing that as a child should be pretty amazing.
 
Retrueno said:
If Eike ends up deciding to go to the Grey Order I hope we can take her to see Dragomas fight. Seeing that as a child should be pretty amazing.
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Nah, that apparently happens once every 8 years. Net time she gets a chance, she'll be 19-20.

And most of the people involved just don't even try, because Turning into a Dragon on Command as your opening move is a pretty big T pose.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
the other hand Showing the guy that can go super dragon and the people That go 'I can take him' fighting to the (possible) death might backfire.

depending on the child.
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It's bringing a child into a firefight between living artillery pieces of different flavor.
Eike seems responsible enough, I'm not so sure about the wizards. Certainly not any wizard that would bring Eike there.
 
You know, it occurs to me that the thread has a consistent bias that skews against Mathilde's actual expressed IC opinions.

The thread does not like Mathilde's female friends. Namely, Heidi and Wilhelma, who are the only real ones we have- note the way Mathilde references her "very good friend" and remember that Wilhelma was our first friend in Stirland, then compare and contrast the way the thread discusses her to the love than Anton gets. Or the way that we schemed to get Kragg and Belebro's affection but have largely ignored our imperial connections except for our godson and commonality of deity.

So Heidi is in a similar boat. Both of the women get intense, constant scrutiny of their motives, with 'they are up to something shady that we may need to stop' and the actual human connections and affection Mathilde has for them gets ignored in discussions.

I'm in favor of having a cute apprentice, so I'll be voting for that, but I think the thread might be benefitted by thinking a bit more in terms of personal connections and affection, and a bit less in terms of institutions and the long term interests of the empire. The plotter is going to make fools of us all over the 10-20 year timescales, sop we are best served by doing what is best of our immediate actions, putting allies and good people into the positions we can, and basically preserving a power base for future issues rather than dispersing it with the hopes that it will run better on autopilot than under our (or the grey order's) immediate control.

In other words, having our apprentice in charge of the EIC keeps it under control, and not in play. Having Eike as our apprentice keeps her visible and on-side, and not potentially being manipulated against us.

So please keep in mind Mathilde's actual feelings- IE, much warmer than the thread's- and remember that anything we don't have a direct hand in is something that can be manipulated against us and our goals.

And our enemies are aware of who we are now. We spiked Slaanesh with Vlag. We spiked Khorne with the bearricane. We spiked Tzeech (probably?) with the Mork/Gork split. All we need now is Nurgle and all four of the chaos gods will have direct contact with and reason to hate Mathilde. Also, we spiked the Horned Rat with K8P and Queekish. Even ignoring the Lhamians who saw us slip their leash...

We no longer have the luxury of anonymity.
 
I object to the notion that 'coldly made plans' are somehow worthless and Tzeench-bait. For one there is no IC proof of that, and for another I could turn that around and say that any plan made from affection actually plays into the domain of Slaanesh or Nurgle. For the record I think the above is just as invalid. The Dark Gods are not omnipotent, they just like to present like that because it gives them more adepts.

On the matter of the Plotter and his limits look at Nagash, his actions are textbook Tzeench bait, from the plots and usurpation, to the meddling with strange magic and apostasy. Fast forward a few thousand years and you find the supposed Architect of Fate soiling his nest at the thought of the Great Necromancer coming back to kill the world him included.
 
Eh, those suspicions at the least have a core reason why they exist. On Wilhelmina and Heidi, we know they are mostly good, the thread just tends to shy away from them at times because they dislike empowering the two of them too much, (and dragging Mathy with them, for good or ill).

On Anton, people were somewhat intensely suspicious of him at the start. But then he started becoming both adorable (the jade aunt) and a meme which just did not stop. Hence the thread's never ending support.

Mathilde had a few female friends (not that close due to circumstance) that we the thread like, we just tend to either leave them (that spy lady), let them leave the nest (Gretel and that other female duckling), or romance them (Pan-sexual).
 
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Glau said:
The thread does not like Mathilde's female friends. Namely, Heidi and Wilhelma, who are the only real ones we have- note the way Mathilde references her "very good friend" and remember that Wilhelma was our first friend in Stirland, then compare and contrast the way the thread discusses her to the love than Anton gets. Or the way that we schemed to get Kragg and Belebro's affection but have largely ignored our imperial connections except for our godson and commonality of deity.

So Heidi is in a similar boat. Both of the women get intense, constant scrutiny of their motives, with 'they are up to something shady that we may need to stop' and the actual human connections and affection Mathilde has for them gets ignored in discussions.
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I do think the thread can be too hard on them, but I have a few empirical disputes to raise:
  • The thread didn't invent concerns about Wilhelmina's actions with the EIC initially, Mathilde did in-character.
    BoneyM said:
    You look down at the map and consider the economic kraken he's describing, and you wonder if maybe it's a good thing this isn't your problem any more.
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    BoneyM said:
    You stare past Wilhelmina at the map. As the reign of Dieter IV quite thoroughly proved, if someone's stupid enough to cut their own purse, there's no law against picking up the trail of gold they leave in their wake. But as the very same example also proved, there comes a point where enough's enough and something must be done. Does your old friend's burgeoning trade empire approach that point? Has she just boasted of the entire plan to a Grey Wizard, whose remit is to crush such overreaches?
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    Now, we took a lot of action to ensure that the EIC would be prosocial, and critted the most important roll on that, so I'm not worried about this anymore, but it's not like people decided to start distrusting her out of nowhere. The first "oh shit, is this an antisocial thing I need to crush?" was Mathilde's.
  • Heidi is, judging by social turn votes, arguably the most popular character in the quest. Literally every social turn she has appeared in, she has won, and her second social turn appearance wasn't even on the list! It was a write-in! So she's won over one hundred percent of social turns and had four total appearances, which is the highest of any single character. She has a vocal contingent of detractors, sure, but I think it's unreasonable to say we've largely ignored her.
 
One reason to pick gold or celestial over grey is the skills taught there. Gold and celestial teach stewardship among other things. Grey teaches diplo and intrigue, but not stewardship, and a better Steward would make a more effective CEO who thinks of the general good just as much as it would make a more effective selfish CEO.

Glau said:
You know, it occurs to me that the thread has a consistent bias that skews against Mathilde's actual expressed IC opinions.

The thread does not like Mathilde's female friends. Namely, Heidi and Wilhelma, who are the only real ones we have- note the way Mathilde references her "very good friend" and remember that Wilhelma was our first friend in Stirland, then compare and contrast the way the thread discusses her to the love than Anton gets. Or the way that we schemed to get Kragg and Belebro's affection but have largely ignored our imperial connections except for our godson and commonality of deity.

So Heidi is in a similar boat. Both of the women get intense, constant scrutiny of their motives, with 'they are up to something shady that we may need to stop' and the actual human connections and affection Mathilde has for them gets ignored in discussions.

I'm in favor of having a cute apprentice, so I'll be voting for that, but I think the thread might be benefitted by thinking a bit more in terms of personal connections and affection, and a bit less in terms of institutions and the long term interests of the empire. The plotter is going to make fools of us all over the 10-20 year timescales, sop we are best served by doing what is best of our immediate actions, putting allies and good people into the positions we can, and basically preserving a power base for future issues rather than dispersing it with the hopes that it will run better on autopilot than under our (or the grey order's) immediate control.

In other words, having our apprentice in charge of the EIC keeps it under control, and not in play. Having Eike as our apprentice keeps her visible and on-side, and not potentially being manipulated against us.

So please keep in mind Mathilde's actual feelings- IE, much warmer than the thread's- and remember that anything we don't have a direct hand in is something that can be manipulated against us and our goals.

And our enemies are aware of who we are now. We spiked Slaanesh with Vlag. We spiked Khorne with the bearricane. We spiked Tzeech (probably?) with the Mork/Gork split. All we need now is Nurgle and all four of the chaos gods will have direct contact with and reason to hate Mathilde. Also, we spiked the Horned Rat with K8P and Queekish. Even ignoring the Lhamians who saw us slip their leash...

We no longer have the luxury of anonymity.
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I think we do represent Mathilde's thoughts, actually. Mathilde is suspicious of everyone, even her friends (even Belegar and Ranald, sometimes).

But... Anton has enough memetic diplomacy to bypass that, Dawi breed a different sort of doubt to humans ("will they overreact" instead of "are their motives unjust or selfish", we have doubted Kragg and Belegar about the first multiple times) , and as for gods, well, suspicion or not, you have faith to them for a reason.
 
storryeater said:
One reason to pick gold or celestial over grey is the skills taught there. Gold and celestial teach stewardship among other things. Grey teaches diplo and intrigue, but not stewardship, and a better Steward would make a more effective CEO who thinks of the general good just as much as it would make a more effective selfish CEO.
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I'd argue that Eike already has an excellent teacher for Stewardship and the few years of apprenticeship would actually round her out pretty well.
 
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